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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Does my ap0 ork lobba give people +1 to save now?

Yep.

Please read the actual rules of 40k. "When reducing an AP characteristic, add the appropriate amount to the characteristic, to a maximum of 0. For example: reducing an AP of -1 by 1 would result in an AP of 0; reducing an AP of 0 by 1 would result in an AP of 0."

Read the actual rules of the indirect fire rule, which modify the armor save of the target, not the armor modifier of the attack.

I just woke up and misread what he was asking, whoops, my bad.

To be honest, I did the same thing. (You can see the edit to my post, where at first I answered the exact same thing you did )

 Irbis wrote:
And big whoopeedoo, one IG squad will do less than a single extra wound thanks to this which will get promptly saved by these big units. Oh no, such power, much wow!

So what you're saying, Irby, is that you're ok with Guardsmen auto-wounding Titans on 6's?

You don't see any conceptual issues with that, whatsoever?

Armor of Contempt only excludes Storm Shields, Relic Shields, Combat Shields, Force Shielding or Sacresant Shield, or under the effects of any ability that reduces or worsens the AP of an attack, so this means, it stacks with All Is Dust, effectively meaning they reduce AP by 2 against any D1 weapon... which is a lot with the TSons strat to reduce incoming damage on attacks by 1

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
And big whoopeedoo, one IG squad will do less than a single extra wound thanks to this which will get promptly saved by these big units. Oh no, such power, much wow!

So what you're saying, Irby, is that you're ok with Guardsmen auto-wounding Titans on 6's?

You don't see any conceptual issues with that, whatsoever?

If you're playing against a titan then the odds are you're in a super casual environment already, so I don't begrudge guardsmen being able to employ superior marksmanship or sheer dumb luck to hit something vulnerable, allowing them to bypass a titan's stupidly good toughness and being forced to use its stupidly good saves or risk losing one of its stupidly numerous wounds.

 Irbis wrote:
And big whoopeedoo, one IG squad will do less than a single extra wound thanks to this which will get promptly saved by these big units. Oh no, such power, much wow!

Even if you take a special and heavy weapon, 7 lasguns will still put out 14 or 28 shots with FRFSRF and/or being in rapid fire range. So that's 2.3 or 4.6 auto-wounds just from lasguns, regardless of whether you're shooting grots or Titans.

The way I justify it in my head is the weight of fire having a higher probability of hitting a weak spot, or multiple shots oversaturating the thermal limit of a given material. Imperfect, but it works.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Armor of Contempt only excludes Storm Shields, Relic Shields, Combat Shields, Force Shielding or Sacresant Shield, or under the effects of any ability that reduces or worsens the AP of an attack, so this means, it stacks with All Is Dust, effectively meaning they reduce AP by 2 against any D1 weapon... which is a lot with the TSons strat to reduce incoming damage on attacks by 1

I don't see a problem with that. They were reducing it by one anyway. This just keeps all the power armour in line. There are of course the subfactions that give various cover types at range, they are also "effectively" reducing the power of incoming attacks to a greater extent than previously and death guard are getting it on top of -1 damage too.

What it does mean for Tsons is that they get less use out of their invuln. Similar to regular terminators with a 5+, they never use their invuln either, unless you're shooting them with melta. Now with these new rules a terminator will need to be hit with a -5 AP weapon (or -6 whilst in cover) to force them to their invuln save.

I think that if they want to reduce lethality across the game (which I think is something a lot players want too), then the next balance data slate would be better providing an updated and complete list of all weapons in the game with entirely new profiles.

Lethality is something they should have been looking at from the start of the edition when they did a big slew of playtesting. Now the only way to address it properly is to look at everything in one go.

Man, the Salamander chapter tactic change coupled with Armor of Contempt is pretty nice. They are going to be tough as nails.

The fact that AoC affects pretty much every unit (not just infantry) is a big deal that might ACTUALLY shake up the meta.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the math while I'm at work but it seems pretty huge -- way bigger than I believe a lot are thinking.

I guess my imperial guard infantry squads with plasma, lascannon, bolter went down in points a fair bit, that's kinda nice. 78 to 60 points I think?

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
And big whoopeedoo, one IG squad will do less than a single extra wound thanks to this which will get promptly saved by these big units. Oh no, such power, much wow!

So what you're saying, Irby, is that you're ok with Guardsmen auto-wounding Titans on 6's?

You don't see any conceptual issues with that, whatsoever?

If you're playing against a titan then the odds are you're in a super casual environment already, so I don't begrudge guardsmen being able to employ superior marksmanship or sheer dumb luck to hit something vulnerable, allowing them to bypass a titan's stupidly good toughness and being forced to use its stupidly good saves or risk losing one of its stupidly numerous wounds.

That point sure flew over your head there...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Armour of Contempt aka "Oh God we handed out too many -1APs to things... umm... here's a patch!"

This is precisely why 3rd-7th had the all-or-nothing AP system, 'cause they handed out -1 save mods to everything and his dog, and it made power armour basically worthless; Marines, with their vaunted 3+ saves, almost never took 3+ saves. So here we are again.

There aren't enough palms or faces in the world for this...

Omg, right? But even then, only for Power Armor. Necrons, Eldar or any other faction with 3+ personal armor can suck it, I guess?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Lasguns autowound on 6's. That's incredibl(ly dumb).

This belies some pretty fundamental problems with design+execution here.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
And big whoopeedoo, one IG squad will do less than a single extra wound thanks to this which will get promptly saved by these big units. Oh no, such power, much wow!

So what you're saying, Irby, is that you're ok with Guardsmen auto-wounding Titans on 6's?

You don't see any conceptual issues with that, whatsoever?

If you're playing against a titan then the odds are you're in a super casual environment already, so I don't begrudge guardsmen being able to employ superior marksmanship or sheer dumb luck to hit something vulnerable, allowing them to bypass a titan's stupidly good toughness and being forced to use its stupidly good saves or risk losing one of its stupidly numerous wounds.

Seeing titan auto loses game already is it too much　to ask for it to be at least durable?

Seeing those changes, it becomes pretty obvious that codex writers are free to write what they will, and the rules supervisor, whoever that is, only intervenes for the dataslate, which creates this ridiculous situation where GW seems to be solving problems after the fact, that could have been avoided when the codex was written.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Armour of Contempt aka "Oh God we handed out too many -1APs to things... umm... here's a patch!"

This is precisely why 3rd-7th had the all-or-nothing AP system, 'cause they handed out -1 save mods to everything and his dog, and it made power armour basically worthless; Marines, with their vaunted 3+ saves, almost never took 3+ saves. So here we are again.

There aren't enough palms or faces in the world for this...

Omg, right? But even then, only for Power Armor. Necrons, Eldar or any other faction with 3+ personal armor can suck it, I guess?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Lasguns autowound on 6's. That's incredibl(ly dumb).

This belies some pretty fundamental problems with design+execution here.

Yeah, I agree. Lasguns and frankly everything in the imperial guard army getting auto wound on 6s whilst at the same time they make the admech pay an arm and a leg for their troops that do this and the they're still boosting the costs of the strat that makes it better (whilst reducing its power) really sucks.

I think they just need to limit admech to 10 man squads and be done with it. Then I can go back to playing the codex as it was written.

No idea what they should do with guard (but not this!) Hopefully they had some better ideas whilst writing the codex and this nonsense doesn't stick.

The Black Adder wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Armour of Contempt aka "Oh God we handed out too many -1APs to things... umm... here's a patch!"

This is precisely why 3rd-7th had the all-or-nothing AP system, 'cause they handed out -1 save mods to everything and his dog, and it made power armour basically worthless; Marines, with their vaunted 3+ saves, almost never took 3+ saves. So here we are again.

There aren't enough palms or faces in the world for this...

Omg, right? But even then, only for Power Armor. Necrons, Eldar or any other faction with 3+ personal armor can suck it, I guess?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Lasguns autowound on 6's. That's incredibl(ly dumb).

This belies some pretty fundamental problems with design+execution here.

Yeah, I agree. Lasguns and frankly everything in the imperial guard army getting auto wound on 6s whilst at the same time they make the admech pay an arm and a leg for their troops that do this and the they're still boosting the costs of the strat that makes it better (whilst reducing its power) really sucks.

I think they just need to limit admech to 10 man squads and be done with it. Then I can go back to playing the codex as it was written.

No idea what they should do with guard (but not this!) Hopefully they had some better ideas whilst writing the codex and this nonsense doesn't stick.

You're not being serious are you? I play admech and their guns are way better, shoot at better BS/range, and their troops are pretty cheap. Guardsmen were straight trash compared to Skitarii even without stratagems or buffs of any kind.

Ever since the start of 8th there's a subset of people who just can't let the whole "lasguns can wound anything" thing go. In actual games it's just a non-issue. Every rule set has abstractions and weaknesses, and this just happens to be a small and very inconsequential weakness.

 Grimtuff wrote:
That point sure flew over your head there...

Maybe it did? If they're only sarcastically saying guard have been unfairly and egregiously buffed from bottom feeders to a slightly different tier of bottom feeders then I've clearly misread and overreacted.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Nice that they threw a bone to Salamanders for handing out their ignore AP1 bit. Do other armies have a similar mechanic on a subfaction that got ignored a/o will work oddly with the new rule?

Yeah, Order of the Valorous Heart would reduce ap -1 and -2 by one point, that's been replaced by a 'can't re-roll to wound'.

Amusingly, the Minoris Order ability that reduces ap -1 to ap 0 was left unchanged.

Which might actually become the single best order conviction in the army now, tbh. Making up for yet another balance slate nerf seems to be the name of the game for Sisters of Battle Listbuilding these days.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
And big whoopeedoo, one IG squad will do less than a single extra wound thanks to this which will get promptly saved by these big units. Oh no, such power, much wow!

So what you're saying, Irby, is that you're ok with Guardsmen auto-wounding Titans on 6's?

You don't see any conceptual issues with that, whatsoever?

To flip it around: ever played against a Titan? Like, ever? Is it worth devoting Internet inches to this hypothetical Titan appearing in so many normal adhoc 40K games?

Taking the edge case that won't even come up as the arbiter of awful seems like mountains/molehills.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
To flip it around: ever played against a Titan? Like, ever?

You seem to be missing the larger point. This rule is a problem on a fundamental level.

To quote catbarf: "... there is no place for highly abstract 'game-y' mechanics, and certainly not for inconsistent application such that the most basic infantry in the game can auto-wound anything in the game on a 6 but elite special forces operators can't because reasons."

Titans represent the absolute extreme of the example, but the rule itself presents problems on its base conceptual level, be it Land Raiders or Hive Tyrants or whatever.

Sigh.... Did they not consider at all how this would effect Chaos Daemons, especially the lesser daemons? They should have been exempted from "armor of contempt", easily justified for Warp monsters.

Gleefully rubs hands together as I look at my piles of PA Grey Knights.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
To flip it around: ever played against a Titan? Like, ever?

You seem to be missing the larger point. This rule is a problem on a fundamental level.

To quote catbarf: "... there is no place for highly abstract 'game-y' mechanics, and certainly not for inconsistent application such that the most basic infantry in the game can auto-wound anything in the game on a 6 but elite special forces operators can't because reasons."

Titans represent the absolute extreme of the example, but the rule itself presents problems on its base conceptual level, be it Land Raiders or Hive Tyrants or whatever.

I missed nothing. Just demonstrating that hyperbole often undermines an argument, not underlines.

Quick Mathhammwr. The 9 lasguns from a squad of Cadian Guardsmen with full rerolls to hit plus First Rank Second Rank pump out 36 shots at half range. That kills… 2 Intercessors in the open. One if the Intercessors are in cover. It’s not utterly game-breaking, though on occasion could be strong.

 Rihgu wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

bmsattler wrote:

...Power Armor being stronger is a welcome change. I am looking forward to seeing these guys back on the table from time to time. Are Death Guard and Thousand Sons 'Heretic Astartes?'

No. They are Bubonic Astartes and Arcana Astartes respectively.

They are also Heretic Astartes in addition to those things.

I stand corrected. Thanks !

With every new codex or balance FAQ, the more I feel the system needs to switch to D8 or D10. There's far too much squashed into the D6 roll, that they keep adding odd rules to try and make things different

I think the changes to Indirect fire are good and the changes to the Bodyguard rule are good (if long overdue). Not sure they have really fixed Tau or Quins (quins can just switch out to bikes now which also had about a 70% win rate at adepticon) but i guess we will see.

Not sure what they were thinking with some of the Custodes changes. Custodes needed points adjustments not having their defensive strats nerfed into oblivion.

Quasistellar wrote:

The Black Adder wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Armour of Contempt aka "Oh God we handed out too many -1APs to things... umm... here's a patch!"

This is precisely why 3rd-7th had the all-or-nothing AP system, 'cause they handed out -1 save mods to everything and his dog, and it made power armour basically worthless; Marines, with their vaunted 3+ saves, almost never took 3+ saves. So here we are again.

There aren't enough palms or faces in the world for this...

Omg, right? But even then, only for Power Armor. Necrons, Eldar or any other faction with 3+ personal armor can suck it, I guess?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Lasguns autowound on 6's. That's incredibl(ly dumb).

This belies some pretty fundamental problems with design+execution here.

Yeah, I agree. Lasguns and frankly everything in the imperial guard army getting auto wound on 6s whilst at the same time they make the admech pay an arm and a leg for their troops that do this and the they're still boosting the costs of the strat that makes it better (whilst reducing its power) really sucks.

I think they just need to limit admech to 10 man squads and be done with it. Then I can go back to playing the codex as it was written.

No idea what they should do with guard (but not this!) Hopefully they had some better ideas whilst writing the codex and this nonsense doesn't stick.

You're not being serious are you? I play admech and their guns are way better, shoot at better BS/range, and their troops are pretty cheap. Guardsmen were straight trash compared to Skitarii even without stratagems or buffs of any kind.

Ever since the start of 8th there's a subset of people who just can't let the whole "lasguns can wound anything" thing go. In actual games it's just a non-issue. Every rule set has abstractions and weaknesses, and this just happens to be a small and very inconsequential weakness.

I didn't (and still don't) particularly care that lasguns could wound everything on 6s to wound. However the new rule is everything in a guard army automatically wounds on a 6 to hit. I wasn't trying to make some sort of crap meme post, I was being serious.

Standard vanguard troops have 3 shots strength 3, with no AP at 18", with the ability to auto wound on 6s to hit thanks to some crazy weapons that gradually poison the user. It doesn't apply to their special weapons and they don't get heavy weapons.

Following some rather nasty win rates GW chose to increase the power level of vanguard by 50% and to limit the tools they could use to increase the auto wound mechanic. Now they've extended that same mechanic to every shot from an entire army.

Is it broken and OP? I don't know, I've not tried it yet, but it feels bad from my perspective as an admech player and it is clearly just a sweeping mechanical patch instead of something thought through and justified by the background.

 Predaking wrote:
With every new codex or balance FAQ, the more I feel the system needs to switch to D8 or D10. There's far too much squashed into the D6 roll, that they keep adding odd rules to try and make things different

This. There are only so many numbers in a d6. Custodes for example skip the first step with their 2+, their Strats can make a joke out of the toughness during the to wound roll, and they carry enough high AP weapons to null armor saves of 3+. So we are left with a how many wounds does the target have.

If 40K is going to keep going this way, GW better change to d8s next Ed.

M.

Conceptually, I can see this is the reason the Imperium uses lasguns. Cheap, reliable, point and shoot and still a lethal laser if you hit a place not armoured against lasers.

Full auto lasguns fired on mass with no recoil will hit *something*, and perhaps do enough damage to cause a problem.

They'll switch to another dice type in 10th just so the whales buy a $35 dice set with 3x d10s because it has their army logo on it.

The Black Adder wrote:

I didn't (and still don't) particularly care that lasguns could wound everything on 6s to wound. However the new rule is everything in a guard army automatically wounds on a 6 to hit. I wasn't trying to make some sort of crap meme post, I was being serious.

Standard vanguard troops have 3 shots strength 3, with no AP at 18", with the ability to auto wound on 6s to hit thanks to some crazy weapons that gradually poison the user. It doesn't apply to their special weapons and they don't get heavy weapons.

Oh please.

Following some rather nasty win rates GW chose to increase the power level of vanguard by 50% and to limit the tools they could use to increase the auto wound mechanic. Now they've extended that same mechanic to every shot from an entire army.

And prior to that, despite people LITERALLY TELLING THEM IT WOULD BE A PROBLEM, they doubled the unit size and decreased the amount of specialization that a squad could factor in for both Rangers and Vanguard.

Is it broken and OP? I don't know, I've not tried it yet, but it feels bad from my perspective as an admech player and it is clearly just a sweeping mechanical patch instead of something thought through and justified by the background.

Frankly, Vanguard were broken since the start. It's just that you did not see them as much.

I say this as an AdMech and a Guard player. AdMech have been crapped on since some chucklehead got the bright idea to roll both books into one without actually considering how things should work. They've been crapped on since they gutted the flavor of the Skitarii and seemingly are attempting to do nothing but bring the Mechanicum into 40k proper.

Rangers lost their "elite, implacable hunters" vibe in favor of just being a big block of pewpew. Vanguard lost their weird "we're gonna poison the landscape" vibe for being...a big block of pewpew as well.

The army's been flanderized as part of its whole "bring them together" nonsense. It sucks, but ya might want to not complain about it here.

 Kanluwen wrote:
AdMech have been crapped on since some chucklehead got the bright idea to roll both books into one without actually considering how things should work. They've been crapped on since they gutted the flavor of the Skitarii and seemingly are attempting to do nothing but bring the Mechanicum into 40k proper.

According to James Hewitt (who was in the 40k studio at the time) the line was designed as a single book that was split in half because of White Dwarf release cycles at the time and stupid company policies involving how releases could work.