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I would not envy someone who paid 1000$ or more on their army, then spent time painted it to play it 3 times in half a year. The new player would have to be not really new, but rather a 30+ year plus returning player, for it to be anywhere near okey for the person. When you are a teen and the school ends, like now in may you have years marks already set in, you are in for a time where you play multiple times a day.
Even for returning players, if they get blasted by the "avarge" top harli or nid army, they probably stop and not play anymore games.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Tyrannocyte & Sporocyst: Barbed Strangler: 2ppm (-3, amounts to -15 ppm) Venom Cannon: 5ppm (-5, amounts to -25 ppm)
As you might have noticed, a lot of my ideal point increases would be on equipment, as IMHO that would also help improve the loadout balance of these units (you don't see Raveners with spinefists or Warriors with rending claws. Also general slight increases on Heavy Venom cannons as the most common heavy weapon on Tyranid monsters and a considerable increase on the Harpy on top of that.
Also points decrease on termagants and hormagaunts because I want swarm lists to be back, plus there is something pleasing about termagaunts, hormagaunts and gargoyles being 6/7/8 ppm respectively. And I would give them (and Genestealers) the per unit cost for upgrades trick that Warriors have, to incentivize large units.
Moreover I'm not sure GW realizes that crushing claws are overcosted because they are 2 per option, and thus no one takes them, so tried to fix that.
And Hive Guard, because poor Hive Guard.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2022/05/26 18:54:14
Tyel wrote: I feel 9th's big issues are lethality and army complexity putting off new & infrequent players rather than faction X being overpowered for 3-6 months. Most of these players will get in 2-3 games over such a period and never even see a Tyranid.
Or at least not any of the tourney wrecking lists you're all whining about....
Tyel wrote: I guess there are knock ons - because if the whole Esports scene is saying "40k is terribly unbalanced right now" it can bleed into discouragement of everyone else. But I'm not sure its an automatic follow.
Haven't seen it affect anything at the local shops. Some of the people who attend tourneys discuss it a bit. Everyone else? Including people just entering (or returning to) the game? We all just get on with playing.
Yeah, but the way the describe how people play the game is wierd. Multiple armies owned, by even starting players, playing crusade and narrative/open. Chaging core rules etc.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Wonder how many players will get fed up and quit while GW does that.
And how many will start new nid armies?
If poor balance was going to make you quit, this might be the straw the breaks you, but is nothing new. The same could be said for the lest few codexes. Or editions (although I do feel that external codex balance is worse then normal for 40k these days)
The players that quit sell their armies; so unless a greater number of players start new ones that is a net loss for GW. And that is something their management doesn't seem to understand.
Even when Nids eventually rotate out and the FotM players move on, their armies are sold second hand. They aren't just thrown out to create 100% fresh new sales.
So you claim...but evidence is showing otherwise. Gw marketing works like charm.
Funny thing that. Professionals knowing more than random internet nobodies.
Well the last time GW started correcting a lot of what I personally saw as integral mistakes in how they run the company was in 2016. How did their stock do in 2016? It isn't about me pretending I know how to manage all the ins and outside of the company, it is about people being able to see that certain broad policies are not a good idea. Do we really think Kirby knew wtf he was doing in those later years?
Also at the sentiment that company managers are inherently good at their jobs... Like, c'mon, we ALL know corporate leadership the world over is riddled with people who are completely incompetent.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Wonder how many players will get fed up and quit while GW does that.
And how many will start new nid armies?
If poor balance was going to make you quit, this might be the straw the breaks you, but is nothing new. The same could be said for the lest few codexes. Or editions (although I do feel that external codex balance is worse then normal for 40k these days)
The players that quit sell their armies; so unless a greater number of players start new ones that is a net loss for GW. And that is something their management doesn't seem to understand.
Even when Nids eventually rotate out and the FotM players move on, their armies are sold second hand. They aren't just thrown out to create 100% fresh new sales.
No, but the FotM player will buy the new FotM and the person buying bits of their old army will likely either be supplanting an existing force or using it as a basis to add to. There's still 1 and a bit of new armies sold in this process.
The point is that FOTM players do not create sales growth for the business, because they resell rather than buying & keeping.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Wonder how many players will get fed up and quit while GW does that.
And how many will start new nid armies?
If poor balance was going to make you quit, this might be the straw the breaks you, but is nothing new. The same could be said for the lest few codexes. Or editions (although I do feel that external codex balance is worse then normal for 40k these days)
The players that quit sell their armies; so unless a greater number of players start new ones that is a net loss for GW. And that is something their management doesn't seem to understand.
To quote a manager I once had: "Don't worry about it, it's been taken into account."
I'm sure GW knows how to run their business better than any of us do.
And you do have a point here. After all, Crusade has had more content released, by FAR, than tournament play. Even GW knows that FOTM is not the core of their business model--they just don't seem to understand how much they could gain from a tighter balance. The cynical people insisting it is are the only ones around who really don't know what they are talking about.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/26 20:37:01
Tyrannocyte & Sporocyst: Barbed Strangler: 2ppm (-3, amounts to -15 ppm) Venom Cannon: 5ppm (-5, amounts to -25 ppm)
As you might have noticed, a lot of my ideal point increases would be on equipment, as IMHO that would also help improve the loadout balance of these units (you don't see Raveners with spinefists or Warriors with rending claws. Also general slight increases on Heavy Venom cannons as the most common heavy weapon on Tyranid monsters and a considerable increase on the Harpy on top of that.
Also points decrease on termagants and hormagaunts because I want swarm lists to be back, plus there is something pleasing about termagaunts, hormagaunts and gargoyles being 6/7/8 ppm respectively. And I would give them (and Genestealers) the per unit cost for upgrades trick that Warriors have, to incentivize large units.
Moreover I'm not sure GW realizes that crushing claws are overcosted because they are 2 per option, and thus no one takes them, so tried to fix that.
And Hive Guard, because poor Hive Guard.
The warrior hit needs to be harsher, especially with them kicking around 3 barbed stranglers and 3 HVC per squad of 9. The idea that you couldn't spare the extra points to get the bumps up to a round 5 point increases on the weapon is funny. One of the best units in the best army in the game, can't handle that extra 2ppm to get HVC up to an even 10. Raveners need a 5pt nerf on their base profile. Even as stat bricks, they're fairly pushed.
Also, Maleceptor up 15-20. I know it's not as crazy as it used to be, but that thing is still pretty pushed at 170.
Then pump the Harlequin Troupe up to 15ppm, the Voidweaver up 10 more, and star weavers up 10 and that's a pretty decent, if Eldar Favored meta.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/26 20:35:03
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
The warrior hit needs to be harsher, especially with them kicking around 3 barbed stranglers and 3 HVC per squad of 9. The idea that you couldn't spare the extra points to get the bumps up to a round 5 point increases on the weapon is funny. One of the best units in the best army in the game, can't handle that extra 2ppm to get HVC up to an even 10. Raveners need a 5pt nerf on their base profile. Even as stat bricks, they're fairly pushed.
Also, Maleceptor up 15-20. I know it's not as crazy as it used to be, but that thing is still pretty pushed at 170.
No one takes barbed stranglers, so I don't see point of hitting them with a nerf.
Moreover I would like to keep point increases to below 20%.
Ordana wrote: GW needs to do a pass of the entire codex.
We have CA and a dataslate coming in like...a few weeks?
A CA, but we just had a dataslate like a month ago.
Keep in mind that dataslates are quarterly.
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Tyran wrote: Moreover I would like to keep point increases to below 20%.
Yea I know people are eager to fix things, but let's not torpedo those books, either.
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ERJAK wrote: Then pump the Harlequin Troupe up to 15ppm, the Voidweaver up 10 more, and star weavers up 10 and that's a pretty decent, if Eldar Favored meta.
I barely see Voids now. If you kicked Troupes then you'll kick Starweavers by default. I wouldn't be quick to nerf all those things simultaneously.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/26 22:30:45
Tyran wrote: At the very least, GW probably got a lot of people to buy Raveners, Harpies and Pyrovores because there is no way there were a lot of those kits in circulation before the 9th ed codex.
Proud owner of 18 Raveners, 3 Harpies, and 6 Pyrovores since... ~2019 or so?
Yes, I have a problem
I always wanted a warrior type nid list, it always kinda hurt to see raveners the other "warrior" be so sad.
That said, considering just how expensive Warriors have become, that army list died in the conceptual stage harder than any other project of mine that managed to reach the budget stage.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Wonder how many players will get fed up and quit while GW does that.
And how many will start new nid armies?
If poor balance was going to make you quit, this might be the straw the breaks you, but is nothing new. The same could be said for the lest few codexes. Or editions (although I do feel that external codex balance is worse then normal for 40k these days)
The players that quit sell their armies; so unless a greater number of players start new ones that is a net loss for GW. And that is something their management doesn't seem to understand.
Even when Nids eventually rotate out and the FotM players move on, their armies are sold second hand. They aren't just thrown out to create 100% fresh new sales.
Most of the armies that sold second hand are pretty old though, they don't reflect the current meta. Typically it's collectors that get them, or people who want to start the hobby with a solid chunk of models without spending a fortune. The latter will definitely spend more money later to update that lot, so it might be a win for GW anyway. I know several guys who would have never started the hobby if they had to buy their starting lot at full price.
Others who don't even consider second hand lots, unless it's stuff in really good conditions. Me for example only consider cheaper unopened/unassembled kits as the only second hand models I might buy, not whole armies and definitely not primed/painted ones.
The point is that FOTM players do not create sales growth for the business, because they resell rather than buying & keeping.
I disagree. They re-sell, encouraging other people to stay/start the hobby and spend their money in new stuff later, but they also have to buy new stuff to keep chasing the FOTM. No way they'd find second hand lots that fit the new FOTM. I believe they do create significant sales growth.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/27 06:51:42
NinthMusketeer wrote: Wonder how many players will get fed up and quit while GW does that.
And how many will start new nid armies?
If poor balance was going to make you quit, this might be the straw the breaks you, but is nothing new. The same could be said for the lest few codexes. Or editions (although I do feel that external codex balance is worse then normal for 40k these days)
The players that quit sell their armies; so unless a greater number of players start new ones that is a net loss for GW. And that is something their management doesn't seem to understand.
To quote a manager I once had: "Don't worry about it, it's been taken into account."
I'm sure GW knows how to run their business better than any of us do.
What else must GW(and quite few other companies) do to prove their blatant incompetence, so that people finally stop believing in such fairy tales?
The only reason why GW is so successful despite so many from their fanbase detached or even blatantly dumb in general decisions is their extremely comfortable position in the market, if a new TT company now would show even just a quarter as much incompetence they wouldn't even survive a single year.
Dysartes wrote: ...and a blanket 10% increase on any units found in SoB tournament armies, alongside a ~15% reduction on units not found in there.
Why exactly should GW now suddenly continue their nerfing the SoB for no good reason Series? Even they are usually not that incompetent.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/27 12:08:47
gunchar 805044 11370592 wrote:
Why exactly should GW now suddenly continue their nerfing the SoB for no good reason Series? Even they are usually not that incompetent.
Because that is how they act. In 8th it became a meme how GKs were one of the worse lists, but GW kept removing and nerfing their stuff. Made no sense then. Why shouldn't they nerf SoB or DG over and over again in 9th.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Wonder how many players will get fed up and quit while GW does that.
And how many will start new nid armies?
If poor balance was going to make you quit, this might be the straw the breaks you, but is nothing new. The same could be said for the lest few codexes. Or editions (although I do feel that external codex balance is worse then normal for 40k these days)
The players that quit sell their armies; so unless a greater number of players start new ones that is a net loss for GW. And that is something their management doesn't seem to understand.
To quote a manager I once had: "Don't worry about it, it's been taken into account."
I'm sure GW knows how to run their business better than any of us do.
What else must GW(and quite few other companies) do to prove their blatant incompetence, so that people finally stop believing in such fairy tales?
So you think it's a fairy tale that GW knows better than a bunch of anonymous randos on message boards + some YouTube video people how to run it's international business that involves making at least 10 different games atm, model design, marketing, global distribution, manufacturing, publishing, licensing, retail, animation production, the financing to keep it all going, etc etc etc. ??
That's the BS you're trying to sell me because you're not a fan of the current version of 40k (a version wich btw seems to working for a huge # of other people....) ?
Yeah, you're delusional.
Though I guess if GW cratered & actually went out of business I might go "Huh, I guess maybe that Gunchar rando was right. Who knew...."
But that's not going to happen. Several editions from now we'll be discussing how things were back in 9th (the + and - ).
gunchar wrote: The only reason why GW is so successful despite so many from their fanbase detached or even blatantly dumb in general decisions is their extremely comfortable position in the market, if a new TT company now would show even just a quarter as much incompetence they wouldn't even survive a single year.
If they're sooo incompetent, how do you suppose they stay in that extremely comfortable position?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/27 15:34:14
Companies are complicated organizations that move in the many different aspects that define both the industry and the market.
Like it isn't hard to arrive to the conclusion that GW isn't exactly stellar when it comes to rules writing and game design.
But logistics, marketing, production, etc? that stuff is far more important that rules writing when it comes to running a corporation, and a lot of new TT companies with better rules and games than GW usually die because they fail at all the stuff that goes behind the scenes to make a successful company.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/27 15:54:11
Or, alternatively, they don't also sell miniatures or the like for their game.
Too Fat Ladies wrote Chain of Command, and the game works within a set of recommended scales. But they don't make the miniatures for it (world war 2 is a saturated market anyways) and they release huge amounts of content online for free, as well as freely hosting player-made content that they approve of on their website.
They make a better game (IMHO) than 40k from a purely game design perspective, but considering all you need to play the game from them is one 35-dollar rulebook once, then honestly it's impressive they stay in business at all!
Tyran wrote: Companies are complicated organizations that move in the many different aspects that define both the industry and the market.
Like it isn't hard to arrive to the conclusion that GW isn't exactly stellar when it comes to rules writing and game design.
But logistics, marketing, production, etc? that stuff is far more important that rules writing when it comes to running a corporation, and a lot of new TT companies with better rules and games than GW usually die because they fail at all the stuff that goes behind the scenes to make a successful company.
It's a straw man; saying the company is making a mistake on one specific thing, then they come back as if the claim was knowing how to run the company better. If anything it helps prove the validity of the original claim, else they wouldn't need to resort to fallacious arguments to refute it.
Tyran wrote: Companies are complicated organizations that move in the many different aspects that define both the industry and the market.
Like it isn't hard to arrive to the conclusion that GW isn't exactly stellar when it comes to rules writing and game design.
But logistics, marketing, production, etc? that stuff is far more important that rules writing when it comes to running a corporation, and a lot of new TT companies with better rules and games than GW usually die because they fail at all the stuff that goes behind the scenes to make a successful company.
This.
I assume that one of the main reasons why GW is still printing books is not greed, but because a large part of the company has a lot of experience with producing and selling books and many people have their job and career depend on GW continuing to produce books.
It's literally the same at my company. A quarter of the company has started out by going around neighborhoods, ringing at doors and selling our product to people. A good part of the company did nothing but provide these people with infrastructure and product to do their job, managers are coordinating managers which coordinate these sales people. These people are fighting tooth and nail to prevent the use of modern technology, because they know it would cause their entire branch of the company to disappear. This would cause small people to lose their jobs, slows down the careers of middle management and makes the big bosses lose power.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
I think most companies run into problems when they find themselves doing the things GW does that players claim to hate but is the only way to keep stock turning over.
I.E. bloat, rotation and creep.
I mean there's a sort of dream out there that someone makes a board game like a Monopoly, a Cluedo etc and every year a certain percentage of the population will buy it and that can keep them ticking over. But its pretty clear in the world of miniature wargaming that isn't how it goes commercially - otherwise X-Wing would have somehow lived its launch forever.
Instead you run into the divide of increasingly bored and jaded veterans - and potential newbies. And adding things for the former to buy raises barrier of entry to the latter.
Which is the dilemma GW has now. I think 9th is a better game than index 8th. (And while I sort of want to love HH 2nd Ed, I feel there are so many retrograde steps in going back to the 3rd-7th world). But I think for a genuinely new player 9th is far too complicated (and lethal) which makes it difficult to have a good initial experience.
But equally, a game with no stratagems, no purity bonuses and dumbed down special rules would be very boring to me. And I suspect deep down everyone who winds up here almost every day.
Its like how Ravening Hordes was arguably the best WHFB ever was in terms of balance. I think it probably was. But if you were playing every week, it got old fast, as you explored everything you could do with your collection.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Do they really have to make them $50 hardbacks tho?
Of course, those are the best books we have ever made, and our customers deserve nothing but the best! /s
Managers don't get bonus payments for making customers spend less money.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/27 20:02:30
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Do they really have to make them $50 hardbacks tho?
Of course, those are the best books we have ever made, and our customers deserve nothing but the best! /s
Managers don't get bonus payments for making customers spend less money.
I'd buy more books if they were cheaper. A lot of people would. It might even encourage me to buy more models. I'd feel more positively towards the company too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/27 21:09:10
The whole point is that the people working in the book printing part of GW don't care about how many models you buy or what your opinion of the company is. That's other people's problems.
I'd also feel like it's highly unlikely that anyone would buy more or less codices depending on their price.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: The whole point is that the people working in the book printing part of GW don't care about how many models you buy or what your opinion of the company is. That's other people's problems.
They don't care how the company is doing overall? That sounds pretty dumb.
Jidmah wrote: I'd also feel like it's highly unlikely that anyone would buy more or less codices depending on their price.
Well I guarantee you taht your feelings on that are wrong. I bought many codexes for armies I didn't play back in the day, just out of interest in background, game stats, etc. How many people would do this? I don't know. But it's definitely a thing.
It's also definitely a thing right now that I'm not buying codexes for armies that I own, because they're expensive and I dislike GWs practices.
Jidmah wrote: The whole point is that the people working in the book printing part of GW don't care about how many models you buy or what your opinion of the company is. That's other people's problems.
I'd also feel like it's highly unlikely that anyone would buy more or less codices depending on their price.
I bought every codex they released when they were cheaper (and soft covers). Haven't bought any codex I didn't use for my own armies since they moved to hard covers and upped the price.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/27 22:25:18
Jidmah wrote: The whole point is that the people working in the book printing part of GW don't care about how many models you buy or what your opinion of the company is. That's other people's problems.
I'd also feel like it's highly unlikely that anyone would buy more or less codices depending on their price.
Cheaper price for a codex means a more likely impulse purchase if you want to start an army later.
Even if they made the current codices $10 though I wouldn't buy them since they're outdated a month later, but the point still stands.
Jidmah wrote: The whole point is that the people working in the book printing part of GW don't care about how many models you buy or what your opinion of the company is. That's other people's problems.
I'd also feel like it's highly unlikely that anyone would buy more or less codices depending on their price.
Well in 3rd-5th when they were cheaper used to get all. Got to know my opponents.
Jidmah wrote: The whole point is that the people working in the book printing part of GW don't care about how many models you buy or what your opinion of the company is. That's other people's problems.
I'd also feel like it's highly unlikely that anyone would buy more or less codices depending on their price.
Sort of? I trimmed back my soup down to a single faction after it became expensive needing multiple codecies(?) to use my army.
Jidmah wrote: The whole point is that the people working in the book printing part of GW don't care about how many models you buy or what your opinion of the company is. That's other people's problems.
They don't care how the company is doing overall? That sounds pretty dumb.
This is how all bigger companies work. GW isn't just a room full of guys who know each other anymore.
As for the people wanting to buy more codices - would you actually buy more than twice as many codices if you get the current codex content and content quality (including the amount of errata, update pdfs and lifetime) in a black&white softcover for $25? Do you also think the majority of buyers would do that?
Edit: Just do clarify, before one of the usual suspects swoops in to spill their vitriol everywhere - I'm not defending GW or even a fan of this practice. I want fairly priced access to rules as much as everyone. I'm just trying to explain that GW isn't a singular malicious being that operates with a genius masterplan, but a bunch of humans driven by different and often contradicting agendas, just like in any other company that has been around long enough. I have experienced this during my work for multiple companies of similar size and age as GW.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/28 08:56:08
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
I mean there's office politics - but I'd have thought the guys in the "book printing department" were less influential than either some analyst, or accountant, flagging that GW makes maybe £25-50 million a year from selling rule books*. You'd have to be pretty confident if you wanted to go messing with that - and frankly (which I think is what's happened) you'd probably look at trying to push more books not less.
*A guess. 1-2 million customers buying 1-3 books a year?
