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 Tastyfish wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Chikout wrote:
Is that a horse on the cover of the codex? Rough riders confirmed? The picture is a zoomed in screenshot of the video.

THAT'S LORD SOLAR!

The model is described as having a mechanical horse.

A new Lord Solar, or Macharius?

Would that be the AM "primarch/abaddon" equivalent? I thought that role would be Ursula's as the de facto Creed figurehead

 GaroRobe wrote:


Would that be the AM "primarch/abaddon" equivalent? I thought that role would be Ursula's as the de facto Creed figurehead

She's Cadian, so unlikely.

Chikout wrote:
Is that a horse on the cover of the codex? Rough riders confirmed? The picture is a zoomed in screenshot of the video.

That could be the special character RR, Mogul Kamir: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mogul_Kamir

Solar on horse (miniature) was in the rumours though.

 alextroy wrote:
Based on the 20 Cadian Shock Troops in this picture, we are looking at a modern 2-builds-per-body kit.

Better that than what the Orks got, I guess...

I too wish that they were multipose, like the old Cadians, and indeed all kits of yesteryear.

Why is the number of poses that big a deal for an army where you're supposed to be running masses of things? Of all the units to be dynamic for every single model, Guardsmen are not what jumps to the top of the list IMO.
Space Marines, sure you don't get a lot of them in an army and similar poses are sometimes noticeable but also pretty easy to sort cos, Bitz. But Guardsmen are the faceless masses that look the same as their 80 other comrades because individuality doesn't matter when you are a little better than a number with a gun.

Wow... I had thought that any update of the plastic Cadians with GW's current sculpting aesthetic was going to be amazing. But this release is oddly uninspiring.

They've tweaked the body proportions on the troops, which is good... but due to having the same oversized weapons, the hands are still huge, and combined with the shrunken heads just looks odd, particularly with the women, whose heads appear to be slightly smaller than their male counterparts.

The Sentinel is a redesign of a model that really didn't need a redesign, and doesn't look as nice as the model it replaces.

The Commissar is just ... bland. GW can do static models well. The 2nd edition pudgy powerfist Commissar is still one of my favourite GW models ever. But this guy just lacks any sort of character or presence. Maybe it's just the tiny hat.

And the heavier heavy weapons... In a universe that gave us tarantulas, thudd guns, and mole mortars, they said 'Hey, what if we gave them a slightly larger lascannon!'


I dunno. Maybe it's just the whole 'they look different' thing, and they'll grow on me. Looking around online, plenty of people seem more than happy with what's been shown so far.

And the Kasrkin do look pretty sweet.

 Gert wrote:
Why is the number of poses that big a deal for an army where you're supposed to be running masses of things? Of all the units to be dynamic for every single model, Guardsmen are not what jumps to the top of the list IMO.
Space Marines, sure you don't get a lot of them in an army and similar poses are sometimes noticeable but also pretty easy to sort cos, Bitz. But Guardsmen are the faceless masses that look the same as their 80 other comrades because individuality doesn't matter when you are a little better than a number with a gun.

From what I've gathered talking to customers it is because, you want enough variation so that it looks like an army, and not a bunch of cloned poses.

It can sometimes be immersion breaking and make the army you lovingly crafted feel like simple boardgame chits.

It's also why sci-fi kits from alternative manufacturers have been increasingly keeping to seperate bodies and legs while he has moved towards limited dynamic posing.

...Interesting. I kind of hate the new Cadians, and wasnt expecting that.

The new bodies look to me both blocky and formless and the new proportions are incredibly jarring (most evidently on the commissar). They've gone all the way from unrealistic too big proportions to equally unrealistic proportions the other way around, but now with added monopose bodies.

I'm happy for everyone that likes them, but I'm happy too that my reaction is so negative, as the temptation of buying a boatload of them suddenly vanished...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Why is the number of poses that big a deal for an army where you're supposed to be running masses of things? Of all the units to be dynamic for every single model, Guardsmen are not what jumps to the top of the list IMO.
Space Marines, sure you don't get a lot of them in an army and similar poses are sometimes noticeable but also pretty easy to sort cos, Bitz. But Guardsmen are the faceless masses that look the same as their 80 other comrades because individuality doesn't matter when you are a little better than a number with a gun.

Precisely for that.

 Gert wrote:
Why is the number of poses that big a deal for an army where you're supposed to be running masses of things? Of all the units to be dynamic for every single model, Guardsmen are not what jumps to the top of the list IMO.

It is one of those things where a small set number of poses can get awkward with large numbers of models if they are too dynamic, or too specific. For example, the Scion Plasmagun is held in a manner that you cannot pose the model actually shooting it, and the default setup is that they are holding the gun at an angle with one arm while pointing with the other. You can fix things up a bit by having the model point up, down, or forwards, or putting a different arm on it (say a pistol or the like), but in the end it still looks kind of silly having a full unit with 4 plasmagunners all casually hoisting their gun weirdly and pointing.

Its a bit ironic, but actually with an army like Guard where you can have 100 of the same model, having it uniform in a less dynamic pose can be better. 100 guys marching and holding their guns looks normal. 100 guys with super dynamic poses redone over and over looks super glaring. Its not the best comparison, but think of the Warcry models, and how super dynamic they are:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Slaves-To-Darkness-Corvus-Cabal-2019

Even on their own store page, it is super obvious that they are the same models and it just looks jarring having them lined up together. If the new Cadians had ended up like this with super dynamic poses it would look extremely weird when a player runs up with 10 squads of them like that.

The old Cadians, for all their flaws and proportion issues, did actually service a bit in posability. It is all minor stuff mind, but glue the torso on the body at a slightly different angle so the person is turning at the waist slightly, or angling their gun slightly higher or lower like they are aiming, at ease and the like. Scions also have this but even better with the ball joint at the torso/hip meeting point. It let you have a mostly uniform army with some slight variations that look nice enough together (except pointy plasma man)

Now with these guys, depending on how you can swap the weapons and arms between "default" builds, don't look *too* bad, so hopefully when we see the sprues and the kits themselves we'll be able to see how well it all slots together. They did well in avoiding going for super dynamic poses, focusing instead on marching and firing stance poses. If the models are set up in such a way that you can swap arms from their default torsos you should be able to get enough of a mix in there that you can have a uniform look without too much repeating of the exact same pose with the exact same loadout. If the arms/poses are designed in such a way that its super tedious to do this then boo, that sucks.

So what I'm hearing is that if your opponent is putting down 80 Guardsmen, 3 HWT, 4 Russes, 2 Chimeras, a Basilisk, 2 Commanders and a Commisar, that it will irritate you that one in every 20 models will have a similar pose?
Forgive me if I think that's about the worst complaint I've heard in a while.

 Gert wrote:
So what I'm hearing is that if your opponent is putting down 80 Guardsmen, 3 HWT, 4 Russes, 2 Chimeras, a Basilisk, 2 Commanders and a Commisar, that it will irritate you that every one in every 20 models will have a similar pose?

What I'm hearing is you trying to ridicule and belittle people who have issues with that.

But no, it's seeing the same ten bodies in the same ten poses eight times in the army. Even if you change the arms and the head, it's usually noticeable enough, and the more noticeable the more "out there" the poses are.

 insaniak wrote:
Maybe it's just the tiny hat.

Little known fact: Hats are a finite resource in the 41st Millennium, and to ensure that they don't run out of hats after this guy and his absurdly big hat, all Commissar hats have to be smaller going forward.

 insaniak wrote:
And the heavier heavy weapons... In a universe that gave us tarantulas, thudd guns, and mole mortars, they said 'Hey, what if we gave them a slightly larger lascannon!'

Kinda reminds me of how I felt when all the wild and wacky Ork artillery from 2nd Ed - Pulsa Rokkit, Splatta Kannon, Smasha Gun, Traktor Cannon - got turned into: Kannon, Lobba, Zzapp Gun.

 insaniak wrote:

And the heavier heavy weapons... In a universe that gave us tarantulas, thudd guns, and mole mortars, they said 'Hey, what if we gave them a slightly larger lascannon!'

No different to flamer/plasma guns having heavy versions. IRL is often just "cannon" and "larger cannon". If anything it was a bit stupid that IG had a man portable lascannon, the idea of them having a less complex and larger one needing a gun carriage is okay with me. I think you just have to accept the long establish fact GW would rather say ER HEY IT'S A NEW TYPE OF SPACE MARINE/BOLTER/WEAPON instead of just being happy with replacing stuff. "Hey here's new true scale marines" or "Hey lascannons are now actually heavy-heavy weapons"

Thankfully the universe is so large and such that you can always just say "well *these* Sentinels are a simply design used way out in the sticks, or they're an old design that showed up on a long lost Sentinel Delivery Ship from M31"

insaniak wrote:

The Sentinel is a redesign of a model that really didn't need a redesign, and doesn't look as nice as the model it replaces.

The Commissar is just ... bland. GW can do static models well. The 2nd edition pudgy powerfist Commissar is still one of my favourite GW models ever. But this guy just lacks any sort of character or presence. Maybe it's just the tiny hat.

.

Yeah...the new Sentinel is ok I guess? But the old one is just beautiful. I do wonder if the new one will have poseable legs like the old one. I love that damned model, I actually broke down and ordered 2 more of them over the Summer to make sure I could get some before they are gone forever.

And he, my girlfriend had to point out that if not for the tactical rock, that Commissar's sword would be a few centimeters into the dirt. She basically immediately said that without the sash and such he looked more like a junior commissar like we saw in some of the old Cain books instead of the full fledged deal.

At least its pose is better than the current one, but my favorite is still by far the one reading from a book with his powerfist.

Noting I don't know all the old Commisars too well, so I could be drastically off here, but probably Fist Boy > Steel Legion Commissar > Lord Commisar > Female Commissar > This Guy > Current Commissar. I know I'm missing a few, but as I don't remember them I can't really rate them.

Gert wrote:So what I'm hearing is that if your opponent is putting down 80 Guardsmen, 3 HWT, 4 Russes, 2 Chimeras, a Basilisk, 2 Commanders and a Commisar, that it will irritate you that one in every 20 models will have a similar pose?
Forgive me if I think that's about the worst complaint I've heard in a while.

Um, its more that depending on just how uniform it looks, if every radioman, every sergeant, every plasmagunner, every grenade launcher man, etc have the exact same pose, it really does get jarring. At that point we might as well go back to the old metals. Its moreso an issue if they are DYNAMIC poses, like I said upthread, the fact that Scions plasmagunners can only hoist their gun awkwardly while pointing at their foe just looks silly - especially when for a long time plasma was THE choice to run with Scions. Repeated poses can be fine if they are more natural looking, and less dynamic, but even then, having even the slight option of altering it slightly helps break the monotony.

Like I said, we'll see with these guardsmen. If they are like the Traitor Guard where you can at least swap arms somewhat without too much issue it shouldn't be that bad, but if say some torsos have arms out to the elbow, others to halfway between elbow and shoulder, and others at the shoulder, and all of the special weapons are locked into specific formats, then it can be problematic.

 RustyNumber wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

And the heavier heavy weapons... In a universe that gave us tarantulas, thudd guns, and mole mortars, they said 'Hey, what if we gave them a slightly larger lascannon!'

No different to flamer/plasma guns having heavy versions. IRL is often just "cannon" and "larger cannon". If anything it was a bit stupid that IG had a man portable lascannon, the idea of them having a less complex and larger one needing a gun carriage is okay with me. I think you just have to accept the long establish fact GW would rather say ER HEY IT'S A NEW TYPE OF SPACE MARINE/BOLTER/WEAPON instead of just being happy with replacing stuff. "Hey here's new true scale marines" or "Hey lascannons are now actually heavy-heavy weapons"

My point was more that they already have established support weapons in the setting, and they opted to create a new type of lascannon instead of giving us any of those much more interesting and pre-existing options. Just giving them access to lascannon-equipped tarantulas, or rapier laser destroyers would have been more interesting than 'bigger lascannon'.

YMMV, obviously.



Edit - and having said that, while the multi-missile launcher thing is ugly, I do like the cannon.

And no, I'm not entirely sure why 'bigger lascannon' is bad, but 'baby earthshaker' is good...

The cannon really makes me think of 37mm style WW2 guns, though really that's just the design of the carriage. The barrel/bore of course is of ridiculous proportions. Still it's going to be so cool to finally have proper field guns!

 insaniak wrote:
My point was more that they already have established support weapons in the setting, and they opted to create a new type of lascannon instead of giving us any of those much more interesting and pre-existing options.

Because people already own those, and no one owns any of these, and they want you to buy new things.

 Albertorius wrote:
What I'm hearing is you trying to ridicule and belittle people who have issues with that.

Pretty much. I've been trying to explain why "all dynamic but monoposed" is bad for large formations but the better part of a year, but he doesn't understand the concept and compensates by just attacking anyone who brings it up.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
My point was more that they already have established support weapons in the setting, and they opted to create a new type of lascannon instead of giving us any of those much more interesting and pre-existing options.

Because people already own those, and no one owns any of these, and they want you to buy new things.

I dunno... I suspect that by this point there aren't actually that many Guard players still in the game who own tarantulas or rapiers. And even those who do would likely be tempted by redesigned plastic versions. I know I would*.


*I mean, yes, I'd be tempted. Just as the new Commissar reminded me that I really wanted the Sevarina Raine model. And then I went and checked the price and decided I didn't really need it after all. But still... new, plastic Rapiers would be nice to look at and not buy.

I already built my HWT into carriage carried artillery back in 2007. GW is just late by 15 years.

I'm not very impressed with the new kit, it looks good I guess, but that's all. What's with GW and weird antennas btw? The Kasrkin on the other hand look promising even if the weapon selection is going to be a mess.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
I already built my HWT into carriage carried artillery back in 2007. GW is just late by 15 years.

GW's Guard HWTs had carriage carried weapons in 1995.

These aren't heavy weapon teams, though. They're heavier weapon teams.

Next codex we will get heaviest weapon teams.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
Next codex we will get heaviest weapon teams.

Gunmaster Nyzhel Tuffenl : The heavy weapons all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Potentate Martii D'Brgi : Oh, I see. And most heavy weapons go up to ten?
Gunmaster Nyzhel Tuffenl : Exactly.
Potentate Martii D'Brgi : Does that mean it's heavier? Is it any heavier?
Gunmaster Nyzhel Tuffenl : Well, it's one heavier, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be firing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your weapon. Where can you go from there? Where?
Potentate Martii D'Brgi : I don't know.
Gunmaster Nyzhel Tuffenl : Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Potentate Martii D'Brgi : Put it up to eleven.
Gunmaster Nyzhel Tuffenl : Eleven. Exactly. One heavier.
Potentate Martii D'Brgi : Why don't you just make ten heavier and make ten be the top number and make that a little heavier?
Gunmaster Nyzhel Tuffenl : [pause] These go to eleven.

Silliness aside I want to know what the "heavier" Lascan is going to bring to the table. The current one is already Hvy 1 S 9 -3 d6 weapon.

M.

I'd assume this is their way of justifying moving the lascannons to D d3+3 (or some other power boost), but I can't say a lot of GW's choices this decision have made much sense to me, so it may be something completely different that I wouldn't have thought of.

 insaniak wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
I already built my HWT into carriage carried artillery back in 2007. GW is just late by 15 years.

GW's Guard HWTs had carriage carried weapons in 1995.

These aren't heavy weapon teams, though. They're heavier weapon teams.

WW1 MGs often came on little dollies with a gun shield but that's very different to say a 37mm gun with wheels and gun shield...

 Miguelsan wrote:
Silliness aside I want to know what the "heavier" Lascan is going to bring to the table. The current one is already Hvy 1 S 9 -3 d6 weapon.

D6... +3!

 Albertorius wrote:

 Gert wrote:
So what I'm hearing is that if your opponent is putting down 80 Guardsmen, 3 HWT, 4 Russes, 2 Chimeras, a Basilisk, 2 Commanders and a Commisar, that it will irritate you that every one in every 20 models will have a similar pose?

What I'm hearing is you trying to ridicule and belittle people who have issues with that.

But no, it's seeing the same ten bodies in the same ten poses eight times in the army. Even if you change the arms and the head, it's usually noticeable enough, and the more noticeable the more "out there" the poses are.

The old kit had five leg poses, the torsos looked stupid if rotated more than a micron, and the clumpy rifles waving in odd directions is the only real choice. This kit seems like a flat upgrade for variety.

I didn't watch the stream, but from what I hear, I didn't miss anything? No nostalgic interview with some of the older designers? No freaky callbacks to things I might have never known, that are one the level Obi-Wan Sherlock Closeau? Only thanks for buying our stuff and please remember to buy more stuff?

Leaving my cynicism aside:
Congrats to the Cadian players out there, the basic infantry and kasrkins look terrific. I especially enjoy the move they took on the lasrifle towards a carbine that looks slimmer and actually wieldable for a change. I also like the very distinct faces, that not only allow, but encourage that your troops diversity in skincolors and gender. I do notice, that in style this moves Cadia away from Cold War area NATO troops and more towards US in Korea/Vietnam in gear. Not that I would complain, I like the guard to look as outdated as it can get.

The Heavy Weapon Teams are also great, it's nice to see that it looks like they remain a basic staple of the general infantry squad.

The 'Heavier Weapons teams', well it's nice that they are there? It feels like there could have been a bit more polish to them. They look cartoonish in a bad way. But maybe it's just the paint job again. I do like that I could at least place Heavy Mortars and Thudd Guns under count as now (with hopefully no longer trash rules)

The Commissar is ... well congrats if you like him, he certainly is different. But I can't shake the image of Burn Gorman in a rain coat, wishing he was someplace else.

Lol to the radio soldier, that is going to be a model that everyone wants to design differently.

Closing of the cynic sandwich: Thank you GW for implementing a new Rule to Cult of Sacrifice, that is potentially even worse than before. In the 0.05% of chances that I have a squad that is not completely wiped off the board, but instead actually has some semblance to a functional unit, it will get in handy. Almost makes me hope I get to voluntarily execute a squadmember DoW style. Which would be the most chaotic special rule in a loyalist force ever.