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Dudeface wrote:
This is ultimately a subjective issue, to me either you're the front line guy charging and you have your vet buddies who are there to watch your back, or you're the strategist at the back pulling strings and need the aides to manage things with you. For me, neither of those is 4 guys with plasma guns. If that's your fluff then fair play, you do you, but there will be a chunk of people who just wanted an efficient weapon squad, which that's OK too but just accept that reason.

In Asskicking Equals Authority world why is it not a valid option that an officer's hand-picked support squad is the regiment's four best marksmen armed with four copies of the most powerful gun a guardsman can carry? Why would the biggest badasses in the regiment carry pathetic guns like basic rifles or grenade launchers when they can do way more damage with a plasma or melta gun?

(Now, if they could take a belt-fed gatling grenade launcher armed with melta bombs or an inferno cannon ripped off a Hellhound you might have a point...)

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
This is ultimately a subjective issue, to me either you're the front line guy charging and you have your vet buddies who are there to watch your back, or you're the strategist at the back pulling strings and need the aides to manage things with you. For me, neither of those is 4 guys with plasma guns. If that's your fluff then fair play, you do you, but there will be a chunk of people who just wanted an efficient weapon squad, which that's OK too but just accept that reason.

In Asskicking Equals Authority world why is it not a valid option that an officer's hand-picked support squad is the regiment's four best marksmen armed with four copies of the most powerful gun a guardsman can carry? Why would the biggest badasses in the regiment carry pathetic guns like basic rifles or grenade launchers when they can do way more damage with a plasma or melta gun?

Because if he want to charge people, 4 plasma gunners aren't going to do much in melee. Like I say its subjective reasoning. You've already highlighted your thought process but it seems to come from "I want the 4 biggest best guns the game will let me", which in itself is OK, but own that for what it is.

Dudeface wrote:
Because if he want to charge people, 4 plasma gunners aren't going to do much in melee. Like I say its subjective reasoning. You've already highlighted your thought process but it seems to come from "I want the 4 biggest best guns the game will let me", which in itself is OK, but own that for what it is.

Four plasma gunners won't do much in melee but neither will any of the other options, and it's absolutely fluffy that an officer and command squad will charge into battle to shoot things to death.

And "I want the four biggest guns the game will let me take" is not the same as "I want the most efficient unit for winning games". If plasma guns were increased in price and plasma command squads were no longer an efficient competitive choice the squad of an officer (with plasma pistol and power fist and/or relics) and four plasma/melta guns would still be a fluffy and appealing choice in Asskicking Equals Authority world.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Four plasma gunners won't do much in melee but neither will any of the other options

That sounds more like a problem with the options. If we go with the Asskicing Equals Authority route then the Imperial Guard Officer should be able to pick up a Thunder Hammer (for example) to wreck face because he has the Authority and thus he is doing the Asskicking. His Command Squad should be more akin to glorified cheerleaders because they don't have the Authority and thus they shouldn't be doing the Asskicking either.

 AtoMaki wrote:
That sounds more like a problem with the options. If we go with the Asskicing Equals Authority route then the Imperial Guard Officer should be able to pick up a Thunder Hammer (for example) to wreck face because he has the Authority and thus he is doing the Asskicking. His Command Squad should be more akin to glorified cheerleaders because they don't have the Authority and thus they shouldn't be doing the Asskicking either.

The command squad is part of the same unit and gets both Asskicking and Authority. And as much as I'd like to see officers with thunder hammers that's probably a level of power that is reserved for marine HQ characters.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
That sounds more like a problem with the options. If we go with the Asskicing Equals Authority route then the Imperial Guard Officer should be able to pick up a Thunder Hammer (for example) to wreck face because he has the Authority and thus he is doing the Asskicking. His Command Squad should be more akin to glorified cheerleaders because they don't have the Authority and thus they shouldn't be doing the Asskicking either.

The command squad is part of the same unit and gets both Asskicking and Authority. And as much as I'd like to see officers with thunder hammers that's probably a level of power that is reserved for marine HQ characters.

That's not how the trope works. It is not divisible (that would be a Badass Army) and no "levels of power" is the whole point of having it.

 AtoMaki wrote:
That's not how the trope works. It is not divisible (that would be a Badass Army) and no "levels of power" is the whole point of having it.

Now you're getting into pointless nitpicking of your exact personal definition of a bit of fluff and there is no point in further discussion.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
That's not how the trope works. It is not divisible (that would be a Badass Army) and no "levels of power" is the whole point of having it.

Now you're getting into pointless nitpicking of your exact personal definition of a bit of fluff and there is no point in further discussion.

This is not nitpicking, I'm just pointing out that you are trying to use the trope wrong. You are talking about a Badass Army, not Authority Equals Asskicking. You should clarify that because it will make your argument better. Personally, I find this whole "muh 4 plasma guns" discussion rather hilarious, so I'm really just here to help and nothing else .

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Four plasma gunners won't do much in melee but neither will any of the other options, and it's absolutely fluffy that an officer and command squad will charge into battle to shoot things to death.

And "I want the four biggest guns the game will let me take" is not the same as "I want the most efficient unit for winning games". If plasma guns were increased in price and plasma command squads were no longer an efficient competitive choice the squad of an officer (with plasma pistol and power fist and/or relics) and four plasma/melta guns would still be a fluffy and appealing choice in Asskicking Equals Authority world.

They can have melee weapons as a heads up, but I disagree that people would still consider it an appealing option, I'd wager the next efficient option would magically appear and we'd have the same discussion. But like I said the whole time it's subjective, what these things mean to different players is different, even for those of asimilar mind track as shown.

What's clear for me is that IG command squads and platoon command squads have, for the longest time, had some options to touch someone from a safe distance so that they could have some effect in the battlefield outside of command bubbles or orders, and now they mostly don't.

And they never really had enough close combat options to a) be effective in any measure or b) compensate for the fact that they are either going to die quick or lose the ability to give orders because they'll be engaged.

For the record, I tended to use them with mortars, because leading fom the front has never appealed to me for IG commanders.

Dudeface wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
This is ultimately a subjective issue, to me either you're the front line guy charging and you have your vet buddies who are there to watch your back, or you're the strategist at the back pulling strings and need the aides to manage things with you. For me, neither of those is 4 guys with plasma guns. If that's your fluff then fair play, you do you, but there will be a chunk of people who just wanted an efficient weapon squad, which that's OK too but just accept that reason.

In Asskicking Equals Authority world why is it not a valid option that an officer's hand-picked support squad is the regiment's four best marksmen armed with four copies of the most powerful gun a guardsman can carry? Why would the biggest badasses in the regiment carry pathetic guns like basic rifles or grenade launchers when they can do way more damage with a plasma or melta gun?

Because if he want to charge people, 4 plasma gunners aren't going to do much in melee. Like I say its subjective reasoning. You've already highlighted your thought process but it seems to come from "I want the 4 biggest best guns the game will let me", which in itself is OK, but own that for what it is.

Why would a handful of squishy humans want to engage the enemy in melee? Shouldn't they want to avoid being in combat so the commander can keep, well, commanding, and instead rely on the grunts to do the fighting?
Guardsmen are not space marines. Their officers are not meant to leroy jenkins into the enemy.

Can we not spend pages on complaining with the same arguments over and over. You guys realize these could have been written by anyone and posted as "leaks". Really put the salt in "pinch of salt"

Robcio wrote:
Can we not spend pages on complaining with the same arguments over and over. You guys realize these could have been written by anyone and posted as "leaks". Really put the salt in "pinch of salt"

Which leaks are being 'discussed' this time? The thread is tough to catch up on quickly with another umpteen pages of bickering added this weekend

Robcio wrote:
Can we not spend pages on complaining with the same arguments over and over. You guys realize these could have been written by anyone and posted as "leaks". Really put the salt in "pinch of salt"

So... let's not discuss news and rumors in the IG News & Rumors thread of the News & Rumors section?

Yeah, that follows

 Albertorius wrote:

Robcio wrote:
Can we not spend pages on complaining with the same arguments over and over. You guys realize these could have been written by anyone and posted as "leaks". Really put the salt in "pinch of salt"

So... let's not discuss news and rumors in the IG News & Rumors thread of the News & Rumors section?

Yeah, that follows

To be fair, as much as the conversation relates to the limited command squad options in the rumours, the fluff vs power gaming debate isn't likely relevant.

That's indeed fair

Looks like the box might be up on Saturday...no preorder preview/Week in Warhammer yet. They said they wanted to "save the cover reveal for last" as it had spoilers.

Argh!

Given what hppened with the Kasrkin I'm going to assume this one will sell extremely quickly.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Looks like the box might be up on Saturday...no preorder preview/Week in Warhammer yet. They said they wanted to "save the cover reveal for last" as it had spoilers.

Argh!

Our clocks went back last night, so it will be an hour later than you have recently been used to.

It should be up any minute now.

They zigged instead, and it's Slaves to Darkness.

Seems weird that they'd put Guard up for pre-order before they've finished showing off the new models. Isn't tonight's reveal meant to be Mr. Horseyman?

I was expecting Slaves to Darkness in early December, but hey, November's good. Shame we won't see that DP released separately for a while.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And there's a number of people dumping on everything no matter what while slinging gak at anyone who isn't chicken littling

I mean, this is DakkaDakka

Robcio wrote:
Can we not spend pages on complaining with the same arguments over and over. You guys realize these could have been written by anyone and posted as "leaks". Really put the salt in "pinch of salt"

The leaks are from a source with a record of accuracy and align perfectly with the "no model no rules" precedents GW has followed in previous books. Do you have a specific reason for doubting them or are you just trying to shut down a discussion you don't like?

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Robcio wrote:
Can we not spend pages on complaining with the same arguments over and over. You guys realize these could have been written by anyone and posted as "leaks". Really put the salt in "pinch of salt"

The leaks are from a source with a record of accuracy and align perfectly with the "no model no rules" precedents GW has followed in previous books. Do you have a specific reason for doubting them or are you just trying to shut down a discussion you don't like?

Here specifically we’ve already seen one rumour which caused (understandable) upset to be the result of a poorly worded transcript - specifically that Cadian Infantry Squads would lose access to Heavy Weapons.

And so there is room for other stuff to have been lost in translation. That doesn’t make a rumour false or misleading. Just partially inaccurate.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And so there is room for other stuff to have been lost in translation. That doesn’t make a rumour false or misleading. Just partially inaccurate.

But, again: "... and align perfectly with the "no model no rules" precedents GW has followed in previous books...".

So... ?

This is (yet another) situation where us being wrong is a good thing. Seems to always be the case with GW rules.

Honestly I don't know why people get excited by new Codices. It's always such a crap shoot over what you gain vs how much you lose.

 xeen wrote:
https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2022/10/18/astra-militarum-9th-edition-codex-leak-compilation/

Not sure if all of this here or not but I saw it and figured I would share it.

According to this, pre-order for the box is 12th November.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 xeen wrote:
https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2022/10/18/astra-militarum-9th-edition-codex-leak-compilation/

Not sure if all of this here or not but I saw it and figured I would share it.

According to this, pre-order for the box is 12th November.

Correct. Tomorrow is the last model preview (the mounted lord solar), at the end of the week guard will get the "up for pre-order next week" article, then the box will go up for pre-order on the 12th. The clickbait site is just reposting what we already know from GW.

I now regret using all my Voxes for conversions. Anyone have extras that I can slap on my guys?

Someone made a comment about no one using grenade launchers.....When the Stormtroopers got their own rules a ton of players switched to using grenade launchers because they meshed with the regiment's rules. I think an additional -1 to AP???

General Hobbs wrote:



I now regret using all my Voxes for conversions. Anyone have extras that I can slap on my guys?

Someone made a comment about no one using grenade launchers.....When the Stormtroopers got their own rules a ton of players switched to using grenade launchers because they meshed with the regiment's rules. I think an additional -1 to AP???

The Lions, yeah. However they still weren't getting used with Grenade Launchers, they just merely used them better.

Back before you had to scatter every blast marker shot (thanks Jervis!) I was a big fan of Grenade Launchers, specifically in Command Squads. My Cadian and Tallarn Command Squads are built around quad Grenade Launchers, as it was fun to throw four blast markers at something. They were generally greater than the sum of their parts.

Yes, 4 flamers or 4 Meltas were better overall (I don't believe I ever took 4 Plasmas... too risky!), but the unit was fun.

Remember that, GW? "Fun". Taking away options usually results in the opposite of "fun".