Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE

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**Karol**

JNAProductions wrote:
And yet Vader could still use the force. He was still quite powerful in it.

Lucas might've been going for that, but GW rules writers also go for "This will be awesome on the tabletop!"
How successful they are varies. A lot.

He was the chosen one. If Brock Lesner gets 15% weaker, he is still stronger then practicaly every man alive.

**Backspacehacker**

Karol wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
And yet Vader could still use the force. He was still quite powerful in it.

Lucas might've been going for that, but GW rules writers also go for "This will be awesome on the tabletop!"
How successful they are varies. A lot.

He was the chosen one. If Brock Lesner gets 15% weaker, he is still stronger then practicaly every man alive.

Ahem AAAAAKTUALLY!!!! Luke was the chosen one.

**Karol**

He was the son of the chosen one and all Skywalkers were special. But if Georg Lucas says that Anakin Skywalker was the chosen one created by the force as an anwser to what Darth Plagueis was doing, they I will trust him on that.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Backspacehacker wrote:
Karol wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
And yet Vader could still use the force. He was still quite powerful in it.

Lucas might've been going for that, but GW rules writers also go for "This will be awesome on the tabletop!"
How successful they are varies. A lot.

He was the chosen one. If Brock Lesner gets 15% weaker, he is still stronger then practicaly every man alive.

Ahem AAAAAKTUALLY!!!! Luke was the chosen one.

I reckon it was Ben Solo myself.

He does functionally destroy The Sith, leaving Rey as the sole, known, remaining Jedi at large in the Galaxy.

Of course, that’s even assuming there is a Chosen One. Prophecies aren’t exactly noted for their accuracy.

**Backspacehacker**

That feel when we will never get a remake of Jaina solo training with boba and the awkwardness of it.
"Hey sorry i tried to kill your dad i guess."

**Hecaton**

JNAProductions wrote:
And yet Vader could still use the force. He was still quite powerful in it.

Yes, but only because he started out *even more* powerful. He was diminished by his injuries i.e. lesser as a human being, including spiritually, due to suffering those injuries.

**vipoid**

ERJAK wrote:
vipoid wrote:
It's certainly inclusive when it comes to rules.

It doesn't matter if a rule is good, bad, or outright nonsensical - all are welcome in 40k!

This is the most pathetically forced soapboxing I've ever heard. You should be ashamed of yourself. Go away.

Oh bugger off you miserable spod.

**Void__Dragon**

Pretty all right thread ngl, a breath of fresh air after all the transphobes in the other thread took their masks off.

The comparison to Darth Vader is particularly interesting and I'd never really viewed Lucas' statements on him through an ableist lens.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This. Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.

To a point. It is true that the Imperial apparatus as a whole is pretty free of some IRL social biases like ethnicity or gender (though IIRC some planets do have their own cultures that still have these more mundane bigotries in place), but as someone alluded to earlier plenty of other things like largely benign mutations or being friendly to aliens is grounds for execution.

**Blndmage**

[quote=Karol 805796 11391616
The only thing which excludes people from participating in the w40k hobby is the monatery cost of an army.

**Manchu**

Void__Dragon wrote:
I'd never really viewed Lucas' statements on him through an ableist lens.

Me, either. The whole thing about losing connection the Force because of having prosthetics came from the EU and I don’t think that can be laid at Lucas’s feet. But that line from Obi-Wan: “He’s more machine than man now, twisted and evil.”

**KingGarland**

OP: I am going to create a thread to talk about how 40K is actually secretly inclusive.

Everyone else: Star Wars, son.

**Cyel**

I remember a story of a Dark Angels squad coming to the rescue of some guardsmen only to discover that some of them are abhumans. Space Marines are disgusted, voice their contempt and how much of a waste it was to fight to help some abhumans, then leave.

I'm quite sure that's the pervading spirit throughout the Imperium, abhumans or any other minorities. Tribalism and ingroup-outgroup thinking are too much ingrained in human brains for evolution to get rid of in 10.000 years, especially in a universe that nurtures hateful sentiments.

**Dai**

Everyone in 40k is ace it seems, inclusive to the likes of me at least!

**CadianSgtBob**

Dai wrote:
Everyone in 40k is ace it seems, inclusive to the likes of me at least!

And that one squad of slaanesh marines makes up for everyone else.

**Blackie**

Karol wrote:
The only thing which excludes people from participating in the w40k hobby is the monatery cost of an army.

I've played with semi-free cardboard tokens (of the size of the bases) for years when I was a kid and me and my group of people my age couldn't afford proper armies, just random models here and there to enjoy to other part of the hobby, painting. Had a great time. Now there are even ways to avoid paying for the rules.

**Hecaton**

Cyel wrote:
I remember a story of a Dark Angels squad coming to the rescue of some guardsmen only to discover that some of them are abhumans. Space Marines are disgusted, voice their contempt and how much of a waste it was to fight to help some abhumans, then leave.

I'm quite sure that's the pervading spirit throughout the Imperium, abhumans or any other minorities. Tribalism and ingroup-outgroup thinking are too much ingrained in human brains for evolution to get rid of in 10.000 years, especially in a universe that nurtures hateful sentiments.

People in a setting being racist/bigoted doesn't mean the message of the setting is so.

**Dai**

CadianSgtBob wrote:
Dai wrote:
Everyone in 40k is ace it seems, inclusive to the likes of me at least!

And that one squad of slaanesh marines makes up for everyone else.

True!
I find it funny that in this galaxy of absolute x rated awfulness everywhere sex is just not mentioned. Some sort of reflection on our society really.

**Cyel**

Hecaton wrote:
Cyel wrote:
I remember a story of a Dark Angels squad coming to the rescue of some guardsmen only to discover that some of them are abhumans. Space Marines are disgusted, voice their contempt and how much of a waste it was to fight to help some abhumans, then leave.

I'm quite sure that's the pervading spirit throughout the Imperium, abhumans or any other minorities. Tribalism and ingroup-outgroup thinking are too much ingrained in human brains for evolution to get rid of in 10.000 years, especially in a universe that nurtures hateful sentiments.

People in a setting being racist/bigoted doesn't mean the message of the setting is so.

Of course, it is quite the opposite - a cautionary tale, like any dystopia is supposed to be.

**Sim-Life**

Cyel wrote:
I remember a story of a Dark Angels squad coming to the rescue of some guardsmen only to discover that some of them are abhumans. Space Marines are disgusted, voice their contempt and how much of a waste it was to fight to help some abhumans, then leave.

I'm quite sure that's the pervading spirit throughout the Imperium, abhumans or any other minorities. Tribalism and ingroup-outgroup thinking are too much ingrained in human brains for evolution to get rid of in 10.000 years, especially in a universe that nurtures hateful sentiments.

You mean the fundamentalist religious psychopaths of a Chapter known specifically for being particularly fundamentalist were mean to people who could be interpreted as unclean based on the religion they fanatically follow to absurd levels?

We know the general Imperium doesn't really care much about abhumans being different because otherwise you wouldn't see Guardsmen sharing transports with ogryns or ratlings (you even said it was a Guard unit incorporating abhumans), but using Space Marines, who are a basically a brainwashed, roided up fringe fundamentalist military faction that represents like 0.0001% of the Imperium's population as being inductive of the rest of humanities attitude towards abhumans is misguided.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Yeah Space Marines are basically the Sardaukar with a bit of the crusader knights thrown in.
They are a small, elite cadre of fanatical soldiers.
Using them as a baseline for the Imperium is like using the Knights Templar as a baseline for France or the Black Hand for Serbia.

Turning them into the poster boys was a mistake.

**Soulless**

I feel so old and sad when I realize there are people, even in a hobby such as this, who dont even know who Terry Pratchett was.

The tweet that was posted on his twitter the day after he died almost brings a tear to my eye still;

"AT LAST, SIR TERRY, WE MUST WALK TOGETHER."

**Sim-Life**

Soulless wrote:
I feel so old and sad when I realize there are people, even in a hobby such as this, who dont even know who Terry Pratchett was.

The tweet that was posted on his twitter the day after he died almost brings a tear to my eye still;

"AT LAST, SIR TERRY, WE MUST WALK TOGETHER."

Karol is 17, Polish and from what I understand lives in a smallish, fairly isolated/rural location (even for Poland). I wouldn't get to het up about it.

**Just_Breathe**

There's something for everybody.
Dumb dips just need to be reminded that casual genocide is not OK.

**The_Real_Chris**

Not relevant? It is, because we all like to roll back things to the earliest lore. And that is a classic white man in space style pulp fiction trope mixed with horror and a history undergrads knowledge of the world. Everything else is built on that and unless you consciously diverge you don't get to reflect more of humanity in a setting where, as has been pointed out, they are viewed in a very dehumanised way. The Iron Warrior novel with a squad defending their world against Orks sums it up quite well, referring to weapons as meat or metal. (Sadly it also showed them to be tactically muppets, even the dumbest WW1 commander had relearnt siege tactics from previous centuries of the counter attack being the key defensive measure if you can't stop the initial attack far enough out.)

Dai wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
Dai wrote:
Everyone in 40k is ace it seems, inclusive to the likes of me at least!

And that one squad of slaanesh marines makes up for everyone else.

True!
I find it funny that in this galaxy of absolute x rated awfulness everywhere sex is just not mentioned. Some sort of reflection on our society really.

Is that a legacy of the Victorians and the wave of Christian fundies that preceded and accompanied them? Whilst death was inescapable sex could be hidden away and any good mastermind will tell you controlling sex is an excellent method of societal control.

**Kya_Vess**

I mean, meat for the meat grinder is as inclusive as it gets.

As for the imperium at large, heck and GW ironically mirroring it... wealth (really the lack of) is probably the most unexclusive aspect about the IoM.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Dai wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
Dai wrote:
Everyone in 40k is ace it seems, inclusive to the likes of me at least!

And that one squad of slaanesh marines makes up for everyone else.

True!
I find it funny that in this galaxy of absolute x rated awfulness everywhere sex is just not mentioned. Some sort of reflection on our society really.

Well yeah, because GW still wants to sell it to kids.
There's a reason why Diaz daemonettes aren't around anymore and nids lost their crotch beaks.
I mean, 40k should really just look like Tokyo Gore Police, but not everyone has the stomach for that.

**Unusual Suspect**

There's no evidence that having cybernetics inhibits your ability to use psychic powers (though of course the Adeptus Mechanicus are generally not fans of psychic powers and they love bionics).

That's... not exactly true. I'm not sure how much evidence there is in total, but Wrath of Iron features a Librarian's point of view regarding cybernetic enhancements, and what it does to someone's soul.

Wrath of Iron wrote:Every Iron Hands squad was active, spread out across the labyrinthine interior. When he chose to, Telach could see them all in his mind, arranged like dots of starlight amid the huge backdrop of the hive spire. The younger the warriors were, the brighter their light burned. The veterans of the Chapter, those like Khatir and Rauth, only shone dimly in the dark, like the afterglow of a lumen after the power has been cut.

He knew why that was. Perhaps only the Chapter’s Librarius really understood the price the Iron Hands paid for their physical enhancement.

What would happen, Telach wondered, if an Iron Hand ever achieved the perfection he craved? What would happen if, by some miracle of bioengineering, the very last fragments of organic matter were stripped from his metal skeleton? Would he register at all on Telach’s map of souls, or would he slip into nothingness, lost in the background coldness of the material universe?

Perhaps, if so, then that would not be something to mourn. No one could deny the power given to the Chapter by its continual quest for augmetic self-improvement. The Iron Hands believed, perhaps even correctly, that no force within the Imperium was as resolute as they were. More deadly warriors existed, they acknowledged, more violent, more flamboyant, faster and more devout, but none that possessed the capacity to endure as they did, to weather any storm with infinite stoicism, to keep going even when the enemies ranged against them had no limit. They took pride in that belief. All of them, from the rawest Medusan neophyte to the revered ancients in their Dreadnought sarcophagi, carried that pride in their beating hearts, using it to drive them onwards to new feats of endurance, of devastation, of resistance.

Pride, thought Telach. Perhaps that is the last emotion to go when the final soul-flicker has been extinguished. We have, after all, purged everything else.

**catbarf**

Sim-Life wrote:We know the general Imperium doesn't really care much about abhumans being different because otherwise you wouldn't see Guardsmen sharing transports with ogryns or ratlings (you even said it was a Guard unit incorporating abhumans)

We know the Imperium does care quite a bit about abhumans being different because Ogryns and Ratlings are specifically considered 'sanctioned' abhumans. Unsanctioned mutants are subject to either extermination or being rounded up and deployed as cannon fodder. The Imperium has some pretty hardline propaganda about physical corruption reflecting spiritual corruption. Deviation from the 'pure' human baseline is seen with suspicion at best and persecution at worst.

And I mean, it's not like those abhumans are considered equals. They don't get to rise in the ranks of Imperial hierarchy; they're essentially treated as disposable troops.

**Sim-Life**

catbarf wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:We know the general Imperium doesn't really care much about abhumans being different because otherwise you wouldn't see Guardsmen sharing transports with ogryns or ratlings (you even said it was a Guard unit incorporating abhumans)

They don't get to rise in the ranks of Imperial hierarchy; they're essentially treated as disposable troops.

You mean like almost everyone else? Most promotions in the Guard are battlefield promotions after all.
The thing you need to remember about 40k is presence of physical deformities in 40k is not the same as it is in our society and so shouldn't be viewed the same way. There is literal magical space energy constantly seeking to subvert and corrupt society in 40k which manifests via physical deformities. Despite GWs insistence Chaos is not just big spiky marines laughing maniacally and announcing themselves with big pink explosions and heavy metal. It's a creeping and insidious force that if left unchecked can result in disaster. You need to seperate yourself from the idea that 40k society is the same as ours but in 40,000 years.

**Dudeface**

catbarf wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:We know the general Imperium doesn't really care much about abhumans being different because otherwise you wouldn't see Guardsmen sharing transports with ogryns or ratlings (you even said it was a Guard unit incorporating abhumans)

We know the Imperium does care quite a bit about abhumans being different because Ogryns and Ratlings are specifically considered 'sanctioned' abhumans. Unsanctioned mutants are subject to either extermination or being rounded up and deployed as cannon fodder. The Imperium has some pretty hardline propaganda about physical corruption reflecting spiritual corruption. Deviation from the 'pure' human baseline is seen with suspicion at best and persecution at worst.

And I mean, it's not like those abhumans are considered equals. They don't get to rise in the ranks of Imperial hierarchy; they're essentially treated as disposable troops.

There's a great scene in one of the war of the beast books where a black templar comes across a human in a cell with a group of "longshanks" which are low gravity adapted abhumans. The templar just casually guns them down rather than rescue them from the orks because they're considered not worth saving.