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Still reads like you misread me I’m afraid.

Right now? We have One Thing in those rumours as proven. Angron. As we’ve agreed, that was a Low Hanging Fruit informed guess.

But. The KT boxed set not being what the rumour monger predicted still doesn’t nix the rest of it. Yet.

As was noted at the time (and to be fair, I should’ve included this in my previous post. Mea culpa)? The bases on the Kasrkin seen so far do seem to match what we saw today.

Of course. That does not mean “if the bases match, Tyranids confirm!”. Just that….for now, whilst there’s reason to doubt, we don’t know for certain it’s all a geet big steaming pile.

Granted the burner account does add a lovely bit of Tramp’s Tipple to the fire. But still too early to say.

Can you tell I have to keep an open mind and know how to weigh up and digest such things for a career?

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Also, I'd take all rumors on release order with a truck full of salt. Supply chain issues are still a thing and it doesn't take much for GW to shift the order of releases around a bit to cover for a delayed product. If you're evaluating the accuracy of a source I'd put way more weight on correctly predicting/leaking the contents of a release than the exact order it arrives in.

It's also worth noting that in recent months we've had some very accurate rumour dumps for Eldar + CSM, both of which mentioned models that didn't show up in the final release despite everything else listed being accurate.

Could be down to a change of plans, a mistake, or just the telephone game effect that's inevitable in these kinds of rumours. It wouldn't shock me at all if the next KT box turned out being Kasrkin vs GSC.

It also depends at what level the rumour leaks from. With a compartmentalised system its possible one staffer knows only so far into the production lifecyle.

I mean they purged a lot (not all) of the playtesters pool probably fishing for those leakers.

I’m assuming this was done now in part for any 10th edition testing.

It's always hard to tell if GW does that to purge leakers or if they do it because "we don't need so many playtesters"

as for the Lion coming back, yeah I'm not sure I belive it, look Gulliman wasn't brought back on a whim, he was brought back for VERY specific reasons, reasons that should be pretty obvious, let's go over them.

1st: Primarchs have become popular characters in their own right since the Horus Heresy and as such primarch models are big exciting news that will spur pruchases (this is an obvious one but it's worth mentioning only so people don't suggest I'm ignoring it)

2nd: We'd long been told the loss of Cadia would be "it" for the IoM, an explination for the IoM continueing on was needed,

3rd: with Primaris Space Marines this meant MAJOR changes to space marines chapter structures. this would require some sort of explination, having the man who wrote the codex return provides that.

4th: the horus heresy is a popular thing, yet many fans don't understand at their heart how much has been lost and how; Bringing Gulliman back allows at least someone who remembers it and can bemoan whats changed.


quite frankly I'm not sure another loyalist primarch returning would be worth the pay off. and it would honestly cheapen the "last loyal son" bit gulliman has going for him

Lion. Imperium Nihilus. Need never really meet up with Guilliman.

BrianDavion wrote:
quite frankly I'm not sure another loyalist primarch returning would be worth the pay off. and it would honestly cheapen the "last loyal son" bit gulliman has going for him

What if he's not loyal? ::strikes Dr. Evil pose::

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
quite frankly I'm not sure another loyalist primarch returning would be worth the pay off. and it would honestly cheapen the "last loyal son" bit gulliman has going for him

What if he's not loyal? ::strikes Dr. Evil pose::

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well. So far we know one thing to be factually right. That’s Angron and World Eaters. That could simply be an educated guess, as with prior knowledge WE were coming, and the other two Codexded Legions having their Primarch, it’s low hanging fruit.

The timeline is however suspect, as it makes no mention of the KT set we saw.

But, that doesn’t in itself mean no Kasrkin/Tyranid set is also coming.

Tom the day they revealed WE were coming, I could have made this rumour that Angron was too. There is no way it wasn’t on the cards.
But yeah I call BS on the whole thing.


More interesting for me setting wise is what happens with the loyal Primarchs.
Aside from Sanguinius and Ferrus who are dead (spoilers).
The others are easy to return really.
Lion is asleep.
Russ, Vulkan, Corax, Dorn & Khan are just off in the warp or missing. Ready to return when their stuff is found or an hour of need etc

Well, chaos daemons are basically confirmed to be next up. Pretty much a nail in the coffin of one of these supposed burner accounts.

BrianDavion wrote:
as for the Lion coming back, yeah I'm not sure I belive it, look Gulliman wasn't brought back on a whim, he was brought back for VERY specific reasons, reasons that should be pretty obvious, let's go over them.

1st: Primarchs have become popular characters in their own right since the Horus Heresy and as such primarch models are big exciting news that will spur pruchases (this is an obvious one but it's worth mentioning only so people don't suggest I'm ignoring it)

2nd: We'd long been told the loss of Cadia would be "it" for the IoM, an explination for the IoM continueing on was needed,

3rd: with Primaris Space Marines this meant MAJOR changes to space marines chapter structures. this would require some sort of explination, having the man who wrote the codex return provides that.

4th: the horus heresy is a popular thing, yet many fans don't understand at their heart how much has been lost and how; Bringing Gulliman back allows at least someone who remembers it and can bemoan whats changed.


quite frankly I'm not sure another loyalist primarch returning would be worth the pay off. and it would honestly cheapen the "last loyal son" bit gulliman has going for him

This is it really. Guilliman's return was a big change to the core of the setting that they've hardly done much with yet, it was a large event that shifted the entire setting in some way. That some people are clamouring for another loyalist primarch to return to change the foundations once more and undermine that, and for arguably a lesser situation than the whole Primaris/Cawl/Great Rift/Eldar/Cadia/Custodes/Primarch stuff, when that shift has barely had much done with them yet let alone had that new potential used so much that it feels exhausted, just seems absurd.

There's not much to go with saturday cartoon style fluff gw had to adopt to give "ongoing story" or at least appearance of it.


And in the end models first, fluff and rules way behind. Once loyalist primarch model　gets designed he gets inserted to fluff. If somebody from fluff department refuses another is found to replace him.

tneva82 wrote:
There's not much to go with saturday cartoon style fluff gw had to adopt to give "ongoing story" or at least appearance of it.


And in the end models first, fluff and rules way behind. Once loyalist primarch model　gets designed he gets inserted to fluff. If somebody from fluff department refuses another is found to replace him.

I don't think you're really understand how big a deal bringing back another loyalist would be. They aren't just some normal character they can put in without having to change the core of the setting yet again. That you think they'll do that on a whim is absurd, and so is your assumption that they are so uncaring about the integrity of their setting that they'd undermine it because a single model would sell. They will no doubt evaluate various different factors when it comes to deciding what they're going to do, it won't at all be as simple as just "money".

Is there even any evidence that Guilliman was some extremely popular model that sold well beyond normal expectations?

Fluff be damned… if squats can disappear for several millenia, get eaten by a tyranid invasion and be found having tea in necormunda. Lion el Johnson could be found sitting in the dark tower playing a really intense and long game of parchese with the watchers in the dark.

Joking aside I get what your saying but having several primarchs back produces a bunch of interesting dynamics and power control issues. Girlyman isn’t the head of the imperium and the lords of terra aren’t likely to give him that power but it’s pretty obvious he thinks he knows what is best…

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is there even any evidence that Guilliman was some extremely popular model that sold well beyond normal expectations?

Given GW don't release sales figures for individual kits, I'm not sure how you'd expect to find evidence to support or to disprove this notion.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is there even any evidence that Guilliman was some extremely popular model that sold well beyond normal expectations?

Given GW don't release sales figures for individual kits, I'm not sure how you'd expect to find evidence to support or to disprove this notion.

Well, there are some ways. You could scan battle reports, paint galleries, views on paint tutorials and other things and compare them to similar models like Abaddon, Mortarion or Thrakka.

Though my subjective feeling is that he didn't do too well compared to those. After all, he is bland Caesar in smurf armor and burning sword +1, not exactly a model that would encourage people to start a new army or pick him up as a display piece. Then again, he was quite OP for some time, soo... *shrug*

gungo wrote:
Fluff be damned… if squats can disappear for several millenia, get eaten by a tyranid invasion and be found having tea in necormunda. Lion el Johnson could be found sitting in the dark tower playing a really intense and long game of parchese with the watchers in the dark.

Joking aside I get what your saying but having several primarchs back produces a bunch of interesting dynamics and power control issues. Girlyman isn’t the head of the imperium and the lords of terra aren’t likely to give him that power but it’s pretty obvious he thinks he knows what is best…

TBF Squats never got eaten by the Nids. It was a throwaway comment to get people to stop asking where the Squats went.

But then where is the squat homeworld Nom Nom

A throwaway comment that they published and republished multiple times.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is there even any evidence that Guilliman was some extremely popular model that sold well beyond normal expectations?

Given GW don't release sales figures for individual kits, I'm not sure how you'd expect to find evidence to support or to disprove this notion.

That's the point. Obviously they'd make money from it, but the idea that "They'd make so much money that they wouldn't care about the effects on the setting" has no basis.

Voss wrote:
A throwaway comment that they published and republished multiple times.

Did they? All I'm aware of is one in-universe line in an edited novel that mentions it, and the Imperium in Psychic awakening saying they're meant to be "extinct" but doesn't elaborate. The Imperium's perspective doesn't mean it was actually being the case.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is there even any evidence that Guilliman was some extremely popular model that sold well beyond normal expectations?

Given GW don't release sales figures for individual kits, I'm not sure how you'd expect to find evidence to support or to disprove this notion.

Well, there are some ways. You could scan battle reports, paint galleries, views on paint tutorials and other things and compare them to similar models like Abaddon, Mortarion or Thrakka.

Though my subjective feeling is that he didn't do too well compared to those. After all, he is bland Caesar in smurf armor and burning sword +1, not exactly a model that would encourage people to start a new army or pick him up as a display piece. Then again, he was quite OP for some time, soo... *shrug*

I could be wrong on this, but I always assume Ultramarines are massively popular with the not-hardcore part of the "consumers", so I imagine a nice fancy center piece went pretty well with them. I see him a lot in second hand UM armies on ebay and the like. For all the looking down their nose the Ultramarines get from people on forums etc, they are pretty much the most popular army by far I believe? (I always assumed so, hence why all SM stuff is painted that way by GW, they are pretty much the default)

I mean, anecdotally, almost all the hobbyists at my club built and painted a guilliman at one time or another. It helped that he launched in the triumvirate box which was pretty cool because you also got Cypher. Less tempting on his own.

Danny76 wrote:
More interesting for me setting wise is what happens with the loyal Primarchs.
Aside from Sanguinius and Ferrus who are dead (spoilers).
The others are easy to return really.
Lion is asleep.
Russ, Vulkan, Corax, Dorn & Khan are just off in the warp or missing. Ready to return when their stuff is found or an hour of need etc

Dorn and Vulkan might be two of the harder to return Primarchs as they’re last acts weren’t to go on a quest in the Eye.
Vulkan was consumed in an explosion on Ullanor with a Warboss during the War of the Beast.
Dorn’s fist was all that was recovered from the bridge of the Sword of Sacrilege.

Corax turning into a creature of shadows may have a hard time being welcomed back by the Inquisition.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Voss wrote:
A throwaway comment that they published and republished multiple times.

Did they? All I'm aware of is one in-universe line in an edited novel that mentions it, and the Imperium in Psychic awakening saying they're meant to be "extinct" but doesn't elaborate. The Imperium's perspective doesn't mean it was actually being the case.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, there are some ways. You could scan battle reports, paint galleries, views on paint tutorials and other things and compare them to similar models like Abaddon, Mortarion or Thrakka.

IMO that would be a bit misleading. We know Papa Smurf sold a ton of models at the start of 8th because he was an important buff component in soup lists. I think that's going to heavily skew things and provide "support" for loyalist primarchs that is really just support for winning games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
What if he's not loyal? ::strikes Dr. Evil pose::

Is this even in doubt? I thought it was made very clear in the fluff so far that he's a traitor conspiring with a tech-heretic to hijack the Imperium for his own personal glory.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is there even any evidence that Guilliman was some extremely popular model that sold well beyond normal expectations?

Given GW don't release sales figures for individual kits, I'm not sure how you'd expect to find evidence to support or to disprove this notion.

That's the point. Obviously they'd make money from it, but the idea that "They'd make so much money that they wouldn't care about the effects on the setting" has no basis.

Voss wrote:
A throwaway comment that they published and republished multiple times.

Did they? All I'm aware of is one in-universe line in an edited novel that mentions it, and the Imperium in Psychic awakening saying they're meant to be "extinct" but doesn't elaborate. The Imperium's perspective doesn't mean it was actually being the case.

It doesn’t even matter if they published it a dozen times… Gw has retconned worse..
Lore is very loose in 40K. Especially since a lot of the lore is based on imperial propaganda… lore says the primarch are supposed to be almost godlike but in reality they aren’t that powerful. I don’t see primarchs returning as bad persay and the only primarch that’s a stretch to return is Ferrus manus because he was beheaded and even if you say he comes back as a dreadnaut well they took his skull with them.. not sure how they retcon that one….

Also I can see

gungo wrote:

But then where is the squat homeworld Nom Nom

Still there, but occupied by Orks.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's not much to go with saturday cartoon style fluff gw had to adopt to give "ongoing story" or at least appearance of it.


And in the end models first, fluff and rules way behind. Once loyalist primarch model　gets designed he gets inserted to fluff. If somebody from fluff department refuses another is found to replace him.

I don't think you're really understand how big a deal bringing back another loyalist would be. They aren't just some normal character they can put in without having to change the core of the setting yet again. That you think they'll do that on a whim is absurd, and so is your assumption that they are so uncaring about the integrity of their setting that they'd undermine it because a single model would sell. They will no doubt evaluate various different factors when it comes to deciding what they're going to do, it won't at all be as simple as just "money".

Is there even any evidence that Guilliman was some extremely popular model that sold well beyond normal expectations?

It’s not like Gulliman was released a few months ago, it’s been over 5 years. Progressing the story with a new loyalist primarch 5 years after the first one isn’t exactly “undermining the setting”.

Ya don't care one wink about Gillman I'm all about that Lion so get johnson in here to run imperium nhilus like we all know is going to happen. Sooner the better.

I’m still firmly of the opinion that, if you want to play with Primarchs, you should go play Heresy. Bringing back one Loyalist Primarch felt like a misstep. Bringing more back just totally changes the feel of 40K to me.