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I don't think the porting of the extra Tzaangors or Mutalith would have been met with as much annoyance if it hadn't made the Codex like 50% Tzaangor. Sure the Thousand Sons are a very small Legion with little in the way of Astartes but having two non-HQ Astartes units is a bit silly.

I see several reasons one might be worried about the new release:
-Weird Rooster choice lacking Butchers (bet we will see them at a point as upgrade sprue from killteam) and Jugger Cav
-Blood Tithe has in AoS a sad history. It is a good and straightforward mechanic that GW managed to always butcher in the past.

GW showed quite often the tendency to overdesign some factions while they underdesign others. Chaos Marines are mostly on the side that comes short rulewise. I am afraid that WE will lack a solid way to interact within the psy and shooting phase, the blood tithe will see way too many limitations and ends up useless and that due to too many similar profiles in the book will lead to a single solved meta list within mere weeks. I bet with you that WE as masters of combat will lack a lot of nowadays important meele army mechanics: Fast/Save Delivery, Fight First/Last Interactions, some sort of Oberwatch protection and so on. I already see matchups vs Ynnari becoming a nightmare. Also beside Angron I see little ways to deal with Vehicles, Monsters or Knights when I look at the currently available leaks. I hope there will be more soon so we finally get a real understanding of what the faction will be capable of

It is a shame because WE are a cool concept. But currently 9th with its focus on objectives doesn’t seem to favour meele.

Seems like a lot of folk will be going from a world eaters army to a khorne chaos space marine army in their collection.

For reference, in AoS the Khorne roster is;
-Bloodreavers (Jakhals equivalent)
-Blood Warriors (Zerkers equivalent)
-Skullreapers (Eightbound equivalent)
-Wrathmongers (Heavy infantry with a support aura which deal MWs on dying in melee)
-Skullcrushers (Juggernaught cav unit)
-Khorgoraths (like really gakky dreads)
-Bloodletters (Khorne daemons are part of the army proper, not allies)
-Flesh Hounds
-Bloodcrushers
-Skull Cannons

-Bloodstoker (backline support hero)
-Skullgrinder (frontline support hero)
-Aspiring Deathbringer (lieutenant hero)
-Exalted Deathbringer (other lieutenant hero)
-Slaughterpriest (in effect a psyker equivalent, but doesn't do it through spells)
-Bloodsecrator (extremely powerful support hero)
-Lord of Khorne
-Lord of Khorne on Juggernaught
-Bloodmaster
-Skullmaster
-Blood Throne
-Bloodthirsters
-Skulltaker
-Skarbrand
-5 Named Mortal characters

Then the army has a special rule allowing 1 in 4 units to be an appropriately marked Slaves to Darkness unit, so the equivalent here would be the CSM roster.

If they were smart, then the "missing units" would be treated the same way the cult units are in CSM - use the entry from the other codex. Would solve the anaemic and one dimensional roster issues and prevent too much invalidation of armies collected under rules up to and including the current index.

Not holding my breath though.

You know what would be interesting as a Khorne unit? A Cult Dreadnought, but incarceration is used as a punishment.

I’m thinking dual Power Scourge. Something that will, in-game, let it massacre infantry, but in-background, not be able to gather skulls. A punishment where the only redemption is the death of the occupant.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You know what would be interesting as a Khorne unit? A Cult Dreadnought, but incarceration is used as a punishment.

I’m thinking dual Power Scourge. Something that will, in-game, let it massacre infantry, but in-background, not be able to gather skulls. A punishment where the only redemption is the death of the occupant.

Isn't that what current-time Red Butchers are? AFAIK they're locked in their deactivated Terminator armour between fights because they're so insane, right?

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:

-Weird Rooster choice lacking Butchers

From the rooster's point of view this choice isn't weird at all.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You know what would be interesting as a Khorne unit? A Cult Dreadnought, but incarceration is used as a punishment.

I’m thinking dual Power Scourge. Something that will, in-game, let it massacre infantry, but in-background, not be able to gather skulls. A punishment where the only redemption is the death of the occupant.

Isn't that what current-time Red Butchers are? AFAIK they're locked in their deactivated Terminator armour between fights because they're so insane, right?

Yeah, but they can collect Skulls with their axes. To deny a World Eater skulls, but not slaughter seems a very “them” punishment.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You know what would be interesting as a Khorne unit? A Cult Dreadnought, but incarceration is used as a punishment.

I’m thinking dual Power Scourge. Something that will, in-game, let it massacre infantry, but in-background, not be able to gather skulls. A punishment where the only redemption is the death of the occupant.

Isn't that what current-time Red Butchers are? AFAIK they're locked in their deactivated Terminator armour between fights because they're so insane, right?

Yeah, but they can collect Skulls with their axes. To deny a World Eater skulls, but not slaughter seems a very “them” punishment.

Mittens the naughty Dreadnought seems like an okay concept, but i don't think you need specific rules for it

No! More Dreadnoughts Helbrutes for the Bloat God!
Chaos must have as many unnecessary minor variations as Loyalists!

 morganfreeman wrote:

panzerfront14 wrote:
Now if only they would release a World Eater's Daemon Engine, or perhaps steal from some of the Loyalists and give them a unique Helbrute model. Could you imagine if they really leaned into the Possessed vehicle route for WE and we saw a possessed Land Raider or something equally impressive.


WE shouldn't just be a horde of mindless berzerkers, they should be primarily berzerkers but perhaps with a few saner almost Havoc style counterparts. Armored Berzerkers are awesome, the same guys with fellows laying down some serious suppressive fire to clear their approach will be more effective.

Yyeeaaahhhh, we're not going to see that. This WE release has basically confirmed that GW is all-in on the cartoonish 1-dimensional gimmicks.

WE are now "Oops, all zerkers" in the same way that SW are "Oops, all furries".

IIRC the rumor is that they weren't even giving World Eaters the Slaughterbrute, which is just mind-boggling when you remember that Thousand Sons get the MVB.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
They've even managed to miss the open goal of mirroring the Thousand Sons and adding the Slaughterbrute from AOS to the 'dex - that doesn't even need a new sculpt!

Rabbits paw of people being rightfully annoyed that Tsons just got AoS ports for new units maybe? Seems like the sort of thing that would happen.

Being given ported AoS units definitely a cop out. No arguments.

That WE didn't even get the copouts, but were just given the finger, is a lovely analogy for the entire release.

That box is a bloody beauty though, no arguments here. Kind of ironic that the entirely anemic release resulted in them being forced to give a very solid boxed set to go with it, because there straight up wasn't anything else to go in it.

Its not a copout at all, its dollar efficiency for customers. I already had MVBs for my Fantasy/AoS armies, suddenly I had a brand new unit that I could field with my TSons and I didn't even need to spend any money on it. Was hoping for the same with the Slaughterbrute.

Mind you, I'm still pissed/annoyed that the MVB became a unit for TSons and not for Tzeentch Daemons who could really have actually benefited from a large monster unit.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Right now, under the White Dwarf additions, World Eaters have access to some units that are completely in character for the Legion and have no excuse to be absent:
Chaos Lord, inc Terminator variant
Exalted Champion
Traitor Guard
Chosen
Bikers
Raptors
Vindicator

They also have access to a number of units that are useful to the playstyle, and at least not out of character:
Dark Apostle
Warpsmith
Lord Discordant
Venomcrawler
Warp Talons
Obliterators
Havocs

These units are all *currently legal* for any World Eaters army and likely to make up a significant amount of existing players collections.
*All of these units are being removed* in the new Codex to reinforce that theme you are speaking of, because apparently Vindicators are now unfluffy for some reason.
This is a tremendous loss for existing players that is completely avoidable. There is no reason for any of these units to be removed save the paper to print the rules on. Why did the Fiends get in the door but not a Lord option? It's inconsistent nonsense and a gutting of existing armies.

This is literally the most depressing thing about the entire release.

It's the fact they gave WE players a WD index that freely allowed these units, despite fully know what units would and wouldn't be allowed and it's not like WE players are being completely unfluffy and taking ranged spam.... we're just being shafted of a bunch of units that fit the design and all.

And even what remains is getting some odd decisions to it.

Your cultists are now all melee cultists. - Uh, why?
Your Lords don't walk or wear Terminator anymore lol. They have to all ride juggernauts. What, you wanted to mount them in Rhinos and Land Raiders?

It's the fact that they also have a complete disconnect from things... like, of all the Chaos armies I'd expect to have a character bloat, I'd expect it to be WE where everyone is trying to prove themselves worthy.

But no - have your staple Daemon Prince, your Lord who is now always mounted and your Lord Executioner. Oh, and your handful of named characters.

No Dark Apostle style slaughterpriests to provide, I dunno, maybe some sort of anti-psyker protection and interaction?
No Lord Discordant style beastmasters.
No foot champions - Lords or Exalted Champions who just make sense mingling in the ranks.

This is supposed to be a force that functions in galaxy wide combat, travelling from system to system and all. But it reminds me of the horrendous 3.5 Blood Rage rule where we worked out you could never have the World Eaters fighting offworld as a sixth of them would arbitrarily jump out of the space hulk/strike cruiser/ship and start power running in space thinking they were faster than a vehicle. So bad that the local group agreed on a 5 point vehicle upgrade to control this dumb rule called Child Locks.

And the thing is? Blood Rage could be an answer to them not wanting us to have things like Havocs. Just give them a blood rage rule, 1/6 turns they go berserk and charge forward instead. Fair trade and the army functions in more than 1 phase of a 4 phase game.

It's fine y'all, just ally Khorne marked Obliterators from another Legion!

Oh wait

Let's not forget the absolutely abysmal mismatching of lore and model of the Eightbound.

We know what a human possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Accursed Cultists kit.

We know what a space marine possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Possessed kit

A marine possessed by eight daemons all at once should be a dreadful biomechanical horror, all spikes, tentacles and other gribbly bits, with just enough power armour showing to indicate where he came from. What we've got is basically a berserker who's maybe spent a bit more time in the gym, and looks like it will be completely indistinguishable from normal Berserkers at tabletop distance. It's rubbish.

Crispy78 wrote:
Let's not forget the absolutely abysmal mismatching of lore and model of the Eightbound.

We know what a human possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Accursed Cultists kit.

We know what a space marine possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Possessed kit

A marine possessed by eight daemons all at once should be a dreadful biomechanical horror, all spikes, tentacles and other gribbly bits, with just enough power armour showing to indicate where he came from. What we've got is basically a berserker who's maybe spent a bit more time in the gym, and looks like it will be completely indistinguishable from normal Berserkers at tabletop distance. It's rubbish.

Exactly. There's exactly zero reason for these to not just be Possessed using differing models.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Let's not forget the absolutely abysmal mismatching of lore and model of the Eightbound.

We know what a human possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Accursed Cultists kit.

We know what a space marine possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Possessed kit

A marine possessed by eight daemons all at once should be a dreadful biomechanical horror, all spikes, tentacles and other gribbly bits, with just enough power armour showing to indicate where he came from. What we've got is basically a berserker who's maybe spent a bit more time in the gym, and looks like it will be completely indistinguishable from normal Berserkers at tabletop distance. It's rubbish.

Exactly. There's exactly zero reason for these to not just be Possessed using differing models.

And even more bizarrely, the eight-bound who overcome the demons and gain control of them... Are the ones that appear mutated and warped.

Wot?

Chaosistency!!!

Crispy78 wrote:
Let's not forget the absolutely abysmal mismatching of lore and model of the Eightbound.

We know what a human possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Accursed Cultists kit.

We know what a space marine possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Possessed kit

A marine possessed by eight daemons all at once should be a dreadful biomechanical horror, all spikes, tentacles and other gribbly bits, with just enough power armour showing to indicate where he came from. What we've got is basically a berserker who's maybe spent a bit more time in the gym, and looks like it will be completely indistinguishable from normal Berserkers at tabletop distance. It's rubbish.

So there's a wee bit of explanation in the fluff; for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time. Exalted Eightbound are where these daemons and the CSM have fused together on the spiritual end into one being--making them much more similar to a conventional possession as a result.

And they still don't come in units of 8...

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Let's not forget the absolutely abysmal mismatching of lore and model of the Eightbound.

We know what a human possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Accursed Cultists kit.

We know what a space marine possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Possessed kit

A marine possessed by eight daemons all at once should be a dreadful biomechanical horror, all spikes, tentacles and other gribbly bits, with just enough power armour showing to indicate where he came from. What we've got is basically a berserker who's maybe spent a bit more time in the gym, and looks like it will be completely indistinguishable from normal Berserkers at tabletop distance. It's rubbish.

So there's a wee bit of explanation in the fluff; for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time. Exalted Eightbound are where these daemons and the CSM have fused together on the spiritual end into one being--making them much more similar to a conventional possession as a result.

Sounds like they could've just kept Exalted Possessed as a thing if the power level isn't really higher than that.

fething hell, what a garbage release, and it ain't even out yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And they still don't come in units of 8...

The box only comes with three

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The box only comes with three

Hence my comment.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time.

Also know as "three stooges syndrome"

<script type="text/javascript" async src="https://tenor.com/embed.js"></script>

None of which really feels like it should make someone more effective in a combat situation...

Well I didnt say it was good fluff for the minis...

 Fergie0044 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time.

Also know as "three stooges syndrome"

Mr Burns Door GIFfrom Mr Burns GIFs

<script type="text/javascript" async src="https://tenor.com/embed.js"></script>

Linking the scene in case there are some they don't actually understand the reference

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Spoiler:

 Fergie0044 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time.

Also know as "three stooges syndrome"

Mr Burns Door GIFfrom Mr Burns GIFs

<script type="text/javascript" async src="https://tenor.com/embed.js"></script>

Linking the scene in case there are some they don't actually understand the reference

Considering the Eightbound, i do not like the part about achieving demon Nirvana with multiple demons - back in the Heresy, that sort of symbiosis with even a single demon was considered very special and rare, to the extent that it was dubious if it was even possible or just a trick of the demon, and reserved for the Gal Vorbak, who needed to do a whole warp pilgrimage and divine revelation quest to attain it. That any random idiot with anger issues can do it if you stick him in a *groan* Eightcage cheapens older and well-established fluff.

Daemon 1 'Psst, hey, hey I can help you take MORE Skulls for our lord Khorne..choose me!'
Daemon 2 'Hey, I can also aid you in taking more skulls.....wait'
Daemon 3 'Don't listen to those two I will enable you to cleave a monstrous amount of Skulls'
Daemon 1 ' a HUGE amount..'
Daemon 3 'VAST VAST quantities of skulls!..
Daemon 4 through 8 'Yeah, Skulls mate, lots of....and power! you know you want power'
Daemon 1 'I CAN DO ALL THAT'


World Eater chooses one just to shut them the hell up. After all, they have the nails to listen to.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Daemon 1 'Psst, hey, hey I can help you take MORE Skulls for our lord Khorne..choose me!'
Daemon 2 'Hey, I can also aid you in taking more skulls.....wait'
Daemon 3 'Don't listen to those two I will enable you to cleave a monstrous amount of Skulls'
Daemon 1 ' a HUGE amount..'
Daemon 3 'VAST VAST quantities of skulls!..
Daemon 4 through 8 'Yeah, Skulls mate, lots of....and power! you know you want power'
Daemon 1 'I CAN DO ALL THAT'


World Eater chooses one just to shut them the hell up. After all, they have the nails to listen to.

Maybe that's why it doesn't hinder them having 8 daemons, they're used to background noise.


How much you want to bet the Word Bearers are trying to kidnap these lads.

"Nirvana" wasn't the impression I got, more "win the FFA and eat the losers".