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Basically back to how they were in 4th and 5th, rather than the hordes that have been pushed since 6th.

I wonder if it is no-model-no-rules being pushed even further. First we had units losing equipment options not in the kit, then we had units losing the ability to take duplicates that were not in the kit, and now units must come with exactly the number of models in the kit.

Just an idea without a body of evidence though, and I am still happy to see daemons going back to being more elite. I find it both more narratively fitting and more practical; less models to buy, less models to assemble/paint, etc.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I wonder if it is no-model-no-rules being pushed even further. First we had units losing equipment options not in the kit, then we had units losing the ability to take duplicates that were not in the kit, and now units must come with exactly the number of models in the kit.

Just an idea without a body of evidence though, and I am still happy to see daemons going back to being more elite. I find it both more narratively fitting and more practical; less models to buy, less models to assemble/paint, etc.

Units sizes going down to not needing more than 1-3 boxes per unit has been a constant thing for 9th, even for marines.

This is one of the few codex releases where I have been completely delighted by the planned design change.

The move of Daemons from an 'elite' army in 4th/5th to a 'horde' army in 6th sucked. It sucked having to have every unit be like 30 models to be semi-functional; it was also extremely expensive.

 blood reaper wrote:
The move of Daemons from an 'elite' army in 4th/5th to a 'horde' army in 6th sucked. It sucked having to have every unit be like 30 models to be semi-functional; it was also extremely expensive.

And there isn't a middle ground? We can't have 10-15, or even Sacred Number-themed units (Daemonettes up to 12 or even 18, Bloodletters to 16)?

It has to be one or the other?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
The move of Daemons from an 'elite' army in 4th/5th to a 'horde' army in 6th sucked. It sucked having to have every unit be like 30 models to be semi-functional; it was also extremely expensive.

And there isn't a middle ground? We can't have 10-15, or even Sacred Number-themed units (Daemonettes up to 12 or even 18, Bloodletters to 16)?

It has to be one or the other?

I am interested to see where your line of questioning goes here. Are you attempting to foster or even create poor feeling due to being malcontent, simply converse with a fellow patron of the forum or is there a grander game afoot.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
The move of Daemons from an 'elite' army in 4th/5th to a 'horde' army in 6th sucked. It sucked having to have every unit be like 30 models to be semi-functional; it was also extremely expensive.

And there isn't a middle ground? We can't have 10-15, or even Sacred Number-themed units (Daemonettes up to 12 or even 18, Bloodletters to 16)?

It has to be one or the other?

I would prefer if the option was there but I admit I am in a situation where it doesn't effect me so I'm not as badly placed as people who have odd number sized units of Daemons. I am sympathetic to those people of course, but I can't say I'm upset at the fact unit sizes are actually balanced around what's in the box (which seems a bit more reasonable than unit options being balanced by what is in the box).

I can't say I'm really that concerned about Sacred Numbers, given it isn't a mechanic (and to achieve any potential for effectiveness, you aren't even running actual Sacred Numbers in your examples - who would in their right mind field a unit of six Daemonettes? You might as well hand the opponent the kill).

 blood reaper wrote:
I would prefer if the option was there but I admit I am in a situation where it doesn't effect me so I'm not as badly placed as people who have odd number sized units of Daemons. I am sympathetic to those people of course, but I can't say I'm upset at the fact unit sizes are actually balanced around what's in the box (which seems a bit more reasonable than unit options being balanced by what is in the box).

I don't think anything is "balanced" based on the box. The decision is entirely SKU dependant and has nothing to do with "balance". If they reboxed Daemons to have 20 per box, the new minimum would be 20.

My point is that GW always swings that pendulum. They lack the capabilities or the imagination to do anything else, and once again we're having whole Chaos armies get Tzcrewed over due to another round of Chaosistency.

And I say this as someone who is also not that affected by it, as I have a neglected metal Daemons army since before there was such a thing as a "Daemons" army. I've got 42-odd Daemonettes, 18 Seekers, at a time had exactly 16 Bloodletters, and 21 Plaguebearers. Now I have a bunch of the plastics ones - including 30 Bloodletters from the 3 Start Collectings! I got earlier in the week (and in the nick of time!) so it's not like this change actually affects me either. I can build anything any which way 'cause I have enough models ('cept maybe Horrors... I have exactly 22 Pink Horrors and 44 Blue Horrors), but I don't see why they couldn't have had variable unit sizes. Didn't need to be hordes, but didn't need to be factory-stamped Mars Pattern Bloodletter Units either, that always come in units of 10 - no more, no less!

Allowing that doesn't hurt anyone, and it doesn't feth over existing armies.

 blood reaper wrote:
I can't say I'm really that concerned about Sacred Numbers, given it isn't a mechanic (and to achieve any potential for effectiveness, you aren't even running actual Sacred Numbers in your examples - who would in their right mind field a unit of six Daemonettes? You might as well hand the opponent the kill).

I think that fluff and rules should coincide as much as possible, whereas the stuff GW writes tends to breed the opposite effect. Sacred Numbers are a great way of bringing something that's part of the fluff right into unit construction. Would 6 Daemonettes be flimsy? Of course. So take 12!

Semper wrote:
Are you attempting to foster or even create poor feeling due to being malcontent, simply converse with a fellow patron of the forum or is there a grander game afoot.

Eh boxes for troops aren"t minimum always, or even often. Especially in 40k.

I might of overlooked it but did I just not see anything on the Khorne chariot cannon thing?

 Rogzor87 wrote:
I might of overlooked it but did I just not see anything on the Khorne chariot cannon thing?

Skull Cannon, yes zero leaks regarding that.

 choppinboard wrote:

 Rogzor87 wrote:
I might of overlooked it but did I just not see anything on the Khorne chariot cannon thing?

Skull Cannon, yes zero leaks regarding that.

It was just one of the earliest leaks:

8" Move BS/WS 3+ T7 9w 4+/4+
Ranged: d3+3 shots s8 ap-3 d2
Melee: 2 attacks s6 ap-1 d2 plus 4 s6 ap-3 d2

Bloodthrone:

8" move, WS 2+, t7 9w 4+ save vs ranged and melee.

You don't want to get in a fight with this guy either - 5 attacks at s6 ap-3 d3 plus 4 at s6 ap-3 d2 will put a dent in most things. That'll be it from me, I hope you all enjoyed chariot week!

 Sasori wrote:
It was just one of the earliest leaks:

8" Move BS/WS 3+ T7 9w 4+/4+
Ranged: d3+3 shots s8 ap-3 d2
Melee: 2 attacks s6 ap-1 d2 plus 4 s6 ap-3 d2

Bloodthrone:

8" move, WS 2+, t7 9w 4+ save vs ranged and melee.

You don't want to get in a fight with this guy either - 5 attacks at s6 ap-3 d3 plus 4 at s6 ap-3 d2 will put a dent in most things. That'll be it from me, I hope you all enjoyed chariot week!

AH well lookit that tasty thing. I wouldn't mind having some fire support from that in my army to pull fire.

Daemonic Allies Bring Otherworldly Power to Mortal Chaos Armies – Without Breaking the Rules

I am not 100%, but I assume that means that these 4 can ignore the 25% and single detachment restriction?

I read it as they don't become agents of chais here, just that they don't affect the keyword rules of the legion?

Doohicky wrote:
I am not 100%, but I assume that means that these 4 can ignore the 25% and single detachment restriction?

I read it as they don't become agents of chais here, just that they don't affect the keyword rules of the legion?

No. Daemonic Pact only works if they have the Agent of Chaos keyword which they don't have unless they are single detachment and less than 25%.

So you are reading it as the that Daemonic pact is an extra limitation on the mono god legions on top of the usual 25% and single detachment making them agents of chaos?

Otherwise what is the point of those extra rules for them?

The more I look into why Daemonic Pact exists the more questions I have. I just don't get why this extra rule was needed unless there's something we don't know about yet.

 choppinboard wrote:
The more I look into why Daemonic Pact exists the more questions I have. I just don't get why this extra rule was needed unless there's something we don't know about yet.

I completely agree.
It's why I assume it lifts the normal limits from earlier.
Limited to one gods daemons, but less limited on number restrictions.

But it's completely assumption. I am fully ready to be wrong

I think it’s just a mono god limitation for those specific legions (ex: no daemonettes running in a WE army).

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I think it’s just a mono god limitation for those specific legions (ex: no daemonettes running in a WE army).

This is all it is.

To anyone reading the codex and wondering, no you aren't going gibbering mad, there actually aren't any "chapter tactic" bonuses for taking a mono daemons or even a mono Khorne/Tzeentch/etc detachment in the book.

You get Warp Storm for a mono army (doctrine equivalent) and the various rules built into the Daemonic rule (angels of death equivalent) and thats it for free uncosted rules.

EightFoldPath wrote:
To anyone reading the codex and wondering, no you aren't going gibbering mad, there actually aren't any "chapter tactic" bonuses for taking a mono daemons or even a mono Khorne/Tzeentch/etc detachment in the book.

You get Warp Storm for a mono army (doctrine equivalent) and the various rules built into the Daemonic rule (angels of death equivalent) and thats it for free uncosted rules.

Yeah... Weird. Looks like the army was designed with soup in mind from the get-go. Guess we'll have to wait for a WD/Psychic awakening

Looks like they took part of an army that didn't really have enough depth to stand on its own, and then realised that splitting that into four further armies with even fewer choices wasn't a great idea, so put in rules to let you do what you should be able to do and just take them in a Marine army.

They should've been re-added to the fething CSM 'Dex.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Looks like they took part of an army that didn't really have enough depth to stand on its own, and then realised that splitting that into four further armies with even fewer choices wasn't a great idea, so put in rules to let you do what you should be able to do and just take them in a Marine army.

They should've been re-added to the fething CSM 'Dex.

They never should have been separated in the first place.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They should've been re-added to the fething CSM 'Dex.

But then they could not sell you another $50 codex and some $30 dice.

I think there is something bizarrely hypocritical in deriding the decision to limit choices ... only then to demand an entire army be removed from the game.

I do not like playing my Daemons along my CSM. I started playing in fourth when they were separate armies and enjoy Daemons as their own weird thing (it's neat we have proper allies rules, however). What happens to my army? Why does it have to be shoved into another army?

You can't seriously complain in every thread about the Night Lords jump pack thing before demanding Daemons have to have a squad of CSM around to play a legal force.

 blood reaper wrote:
I think there is something bizarrely hypocritical in deriding the decision to limit choices ... only then to demand an entire army be removed from the game.

I do not like playing my Daemons along my CSM. I started playing in fourth when they were separate armies and enjoy Daemons as their own weird thing (it's neat we have proper allies rules, however). What happens to my army? Why does it have to be shoved into another army?

You can't seriously complain in every thread about the Night Lords jump pack thing before demanding Daemons have to have a squad of CSM around to play a legal force.

Having both CSM and Daemons in the same codex wouldn't have to require that they are always in the same army. CWE and Harlequins are in the same codex, but you can still play an all Harlequins army.

Well, the goonhammer review is up and apparently there is no max for greater daemons per detatchment. ( Except them beeing expensive, obviously). I DO like that a lot.
All in all the dex sounds considerably better designed and( internally) balanced than most 9th ed ones and DEFINITELY better than the previous daemon ones.
Also (Chaos) Soup is back, Baby!

It didn't used to be called "soup". It was just Chaos.

 blood reaper wrote:
You can't seriously complain in every thread about the Night Lords jump pack thing before demanding Daemons have to have a squad of CSM around to play a legal force.

No one demanded that.

As Gad said above, it'd be like Harlequins. Can be part of, can be separate. Just put 'em in one book and call it a day.