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Much as I enjoy Waititi’s fare, I do get why others just…won’t. I’ve better things to do with my time and the next person’s time than argue that toss. Especially given comedy is incredibly subjective.
His stuff chimes with me, and so I’m predisposed to enjoy, and possibly be more forgiving as a result.
I do stress I’m not holding L&T up as genius, perfect film making. It definitely has its flaws, they just don’t bother me, personally, all that much.
I still say watch it if you’re on the fence. The bum notes are, for me, heavily outweighed by the masterful concertos. Though I must also stress the scene I enjoyed the most is definitely going to be Marmite. I loved it, as I love Marmite. A deep, abiding love of which I cannot get enough of. But if it leaves a sour, eye crossing and rolling into the back of the head taste in others? I absolutely get it. Because the very thing I absolutely bloody love about it, is the very thing that will have others utterly despising it like they just kicked your Nan, stole your Kidney, and interfered with your pet.
Sod it. It’s on wide enough release. I can spoiler the specific scene.
Spoiler:
It’s the final big fight scene. Where Thor bestows the Power of Thor upon the kids. I. fething. Loved. It. Just everything about it. To see kids terrified by a total knobber. Who picked on them because he decided they were his trump card, suddenly get the strength they needed, and then Get Their Ming On cheered my sad old soul no end. Especially the kiddo with the Cuddly Toy shooting deathbeams through its eyes. Given what the Asgardians have been through, to see their youngsters get their moment to shine just…..works for me.
If you’ve rolled your eyes at this spoiler and haven’t seen it? Just watch it.
If you’ve rolled your eyes at this spoiler but have seen it? Do you see what I consider it serious Marmite?
Now for why this might really, REALLY bug you.
Spoiler:
Problem 1: If Thor could di this at any time - just give the Power of Thor to random people, or even random Asgardians - why not do this during Infinity War? Or Ragnarok? Or the Dark Elf invasion?
Problem 2: The real issue is the bad guy's plan in the first place. He's kidnapped kids and expecting Thor to come save them.
But... isn't he mad at the gods because they DIDN'T come save his daughter? And he's killing them because they don't come save their followers?
But he's still expecting Thor to come save the kids?
Hunh?
Other problems with the movie. Jane is looking for Mjolnir to help her with her cancer, an utterly selfish reason. How does this make her worthy to lift it?
For that matter, why does Jane, an astrophysicist, think she can do the labwork to cure her cancer better than her doctors?
If Mjolnir could reforge itself at any time, why didn't it do so earlier... like during Infinity War, so Thor could go after Thanos BEFORE Thanos got all the Infinity Stones? That way Thor wouldn't have to faff around making Stormbreaker and all. An argument might be made for it if Thor had lost his worthiness somewhere along the line, possibly from his reaction to Thanos' attack on the Asguardians and his subsequent failure to stop the 'snap'. But... they make a point of having Thor 'check' his worthiness, and he's still got it. So... what the heck, Mjolnir?
There's suspension of disbelief... and plot holes that keep you from doing it.
Saw it. Really enjoyed it. Saw some stuff on screen that was 100% comic accurate that I never expected to see. Totally wild.
Spoiler:
fething Eternity. Wild man.
In the past we have seen an appearance of something as kind of a sneak peak of the special effects for something else. Blonski's pre abomination super soldier fight with the Hulk was a precursor to Captain America's special effects as an example. The shadow monsters in this are a straight up tease of what Knull and his Dragons are going to be like. Crazy ass gak. And I am super excited for it.
The little girl at the end. Her reflection in the water was Eternities reflection. I think there is a really good chance that she is Captain Universe. Protector of Eternity. And the one thing that can actually stop Knull.
Now that Thor has Mjolnir back AND he isn't using Storm Breaker that is a great opportunity to give it to Beta Ray Bill.
Problem 1: If Thor could di this at any time - just give the Power of Thor to random people, or even random Asgardians - why not do this during Infinity War? Or Ragnarok? Or the Dark Elf invasion?
Problem 2: The real issue is the bad guy's plan in the first place. He's kidnapped kids and expecting Thor to come save them.
But... isn't he mad at the gods because they DIDN'T come save his daughter? And he's killing them because they don't come save their followers?
But he's still expecting Thor to come save the kids?
Hunh?
Other problems with the movie. Jane is looking for Mjolnir to help her with her cancer, an utterly selfish reason. How does this make her worthy to lift it?
For that matter, why does Jane, an astrophysicist, think she can do the labwork to cure her cancer better than her doctors?
If Mjolnir could reforge itself at any time, why didn't it do so earlier... like during Infinity War, so Thor could go after Thanos BEFORE Thanos got all the Infinity Stones? That way Thor wouldn't have to faff around making Stormbreaker and all. An argument might be made for it if Thor had lost his worthiness somewhere along the line, possibly from his reaction to Thanos' attack on the Asguardians and his subsequent failure to stop the 'snap'. But... they make a point of having Thor 'check' his worthiness, and he's still got it. So... what the heck, Mjolnir?
There's suspension of disbelief... and plot holes that keep you from doing it.
Spoiler:
1) His father could do this before. He didn't know he could do it. It was when he realized he could that he started to. Thats the Odin Force/Thor Force.
2) This is another movie where in the movie there is a line of dialog that directly says he is being corrupted by object. In this case the Necrosword, and for some reason the audience doesn't understand that concept. I don't know what people need to hear to understand the words actually spoken in the movie.
3) It doesn't. You see Thor in a flash back hugging Jane, say something to the effect of The Hammer always protecting her and then it got the glow with the nordic Knot. She was sick. The Hammer tried to make her strong. It failed, but it tried.
4) Desperate people are desperate. Shes in the denial stage of grief over her own impending death.
5) See 3. It was an effect of the specific enchantment Thor put on it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/11 01:50:11
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2) This is another movie where in the movie there is a line of dialog that directly says he is being corrupted by object. In this case the Necrosword, and for some reason the audience doesn't understand that concept. I don't know what people need to hear to understand the words actually spoken in the movie.
Or maybe, just maybe, audiences have grown past 'a wizard did it' (either directly or by proxy) as an acceptable excuse for villains, and they want an interesting character in the movie with some depth and actual motivations. Especially in a franchise with such crappy fething excuses for villains.
Its less a problem with understanding than it is 'that is an unacceptably shallow answer for anyone over the age of 10.' People do terrible things for reasons they think are rational, and characters in films should reflect that. Especially a villain, since they're so central and important to this type of film.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/11 03:55:11
2) This is another movie where in the movie there is a line of dialog that directly says he is being corrupted by object. In this case the Necrosword, and for some reason the audience doesn't understand that concept. I don't know what people need to hear to understand the words actually spoken in the movie.
Or maybe, just maybe, audiences have grown past 'a wizard did it' (either directly or by proxy) as an acceptable excuse for villains, and they want an interesting character in the movie with some depth and actual motivations. Especially in a franchise with such crappy fething excuses for villains.
Its less a problem with understanding than it is 'that is an unacceptably shallow answer for anyone over the age of 10.' People do terrible things for reasons they think are rational, and characters in films should reflect that. Especially a villain, since they're so central and important to this type of film.
Right. So.
Spoiler:
Gorr's basic motivation of killing all Gods is grounded in the opening scene with him. You see the devotion he gave to a careless monster. Then, he is suddenly given the power to do something about it and goes on his rampage. The basic motivations he has for what he is doing is simple but logical. All powerful beings that abuse the little guys need to go. The universe would be better without them. But he needs the bifrost and right now that means Stormbreaker.
The corruption bit is how he gets over the irony of using kids as a means to an ends. Which, is the exact difference between a hero and a villain. Zemo isn't actually wrong about what the Avenegers did to him. But he sees the innocents he purposefully kills as a means to his ends as a unfortunate but totally acceptable sacrifice for his goals. Likewise, Gorr glosses over the irony of the kids both because the Necrosword is egging him on and because he isn't a good guy. He's the villain. He is willing to torture and kill for his goals.
The fact that he changes his wish at the end after the necrosword has been "destroyed" says everything about what kind of a hold it had on him. If he still had the sword in hand, it's unlikely Thor and Jane could have turned him away from his stated mission.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Sod it. It’s on wide enough release. I can spoiler the specific scene.
Spoiler:
It’s the final big fight scene. Where Thor bestows the Power of Thor upon the kids. I. fething. Loved. It. Just everything about it. To see kids terrified by a total knobber. Who picked on them because he decided they were his trump card, suddenly get the strength they needed, and then Get Their Ming On cheered my sad old soul no end. Especially the kiddo with the Cuddly Toy shooting deathbeams through its eyes. Given what the Asgardians have been through, to see their youngsters get their moment to shine just…..works for me.
If you’ve rolled your eyes at this spoiler and haven’t seen it? Just watch it.
If you’ve rolled your eyes at this spoiler but have seen it? Do you see what I consider it serious Marmite?
Loved that scene.
And the screaming goats.
And talking to/arguing with the weapons.
And....
Problem 2: The real issue is the bad guy's plan in the first place. He's kidnapped kids and expecting Thor to come save them.
But... isn't he mad at the gods because they DIDN'T come save his daughter? And he's killing them because they don't come save their followers?
But he's still expecting Thor to come save the kids?
Hunh?
Gorr believes the gods care only for their own kind, so yes, of course he would expect Thor to come save the Asgardian children. They're all gods.
Other problems with the movie. Jane is looking for Mjolnir to help her with her cancer, an utterly selfish reason. How does this make her worthy to lift it?
There is a flashback where you see Thor tell Mjolnir to protect Jane, and the hammer glows in acknowledgement. He inadvertently enchants it.
For that matter, why does Jane, an astrophysicist, think she can do the labwork to cure her cancer better than her doctors?
I don't know if she thinks she can do it better, but I completely understand the impulse to try and do something about it yourself when you're already on death's door. If the alternative is to sit around and wait for the end, I don't think it's that ridiculous to believe a person like Jane would try to do something about her condition even if it's completely out of her field.
If Mjolnir could reforge itself at any time, why didn't it do so earlier... like during Infinity War, so Thor could go after Thanos BEFORE Thanos got all the Infinity Stones? That way Thor wouldn't have to faff around making Stormbreaker and all. An argument might be made for it if Thor had lost his worthiness somewhere along the line, possibly from his reaction to Thanos' attack on the Asguardians and his subsequent failure to stop the 'snap'. But... they make a point of having Thor 'check' his worthiness, and he's still got it. So... what the heck, Mjolnir?
There could be a lot of reasons for this, since we don't know how Mjolnir works. Thor may have never even tried to put it back together, since he and Loki left in a hurry after Hela shattered it. Even if he came back to it after, he may not even have tried to put it back together since it's clearly a very special weapon even by Asgardian standards and Thanos killed so many of the Dwarves on Nidavillir. Or maybe the hammer just needed time, who knows?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/11 12:26:00
At what point did Thor have the time to go looking for Mjolnir prior to forging Stormbreaker?
From Thor’s perspective, everything from the moment Hela shatters Mjolnir, to being picked up the Guardians of the Galaxy happens in….maybe a week at most? He and Loki attempt to emergency Bifrost back to Asgard, get thrown out on to the wrong planet. Enslaved as a Gladiator. Meets Hulk. Gets to Asgard, defeats Hela and saves his people, and they more or less immediately run afoul of Thanos, who’s rampage we pick up on at the beginning of Infinity War.
From there, he’s picked up by the Guardians, and needing a weapon, it’s off to see a man about a dog. Gets the dog, and promptly fails to stop Thanos in time.
By the time New Asgard is founded on Earth? Thor is in a deep and understandable depression. Just as we saw in Thor? Being worthy of Mjolnir is not a consistent state. At all.
Note that the display case has grass under Mjolnir’s parts. Likely the very turf it fell on after being shattered. We can reasonably extrapolate Thor did try to collect the pieces, but due to his depression wasn’t worthy at that point, hence they farted around the poo, and just excavated the land it was on.
It’s not until later in End Game, when Thor knows he has a chance to set things right that we see him test his worthiness by summoning Past Mjolnir, and succeeding in doing so. We see his very visible and emotional state when it’s confirmed he is still worthy. Likely returned to state because he has a mission which he needs to complete.
Granted this is a bit of a deep dive, so please don’t think any of this was set out by me with a “duuuhhhh” in my head. This is explanatory, not flexing
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I DO think there is a penchant for certain people (not just on this forum, but all over the internet) to call things "plot holes" that are actually just forgotten facts. Or ignored circumstances? I dunno. Its something. But its not plot holes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/11 17:08:55
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Well that was fun, popcorn fare - but then it is a superhero movie.
Spoiler:
fortunately, to my taste, the Waititi coefficient wasn't as high as I feared and all the Bro/Dude bollocks was at the forefront at the start but settled down, although still there. Korg is still utter, utter, utter s*** so I take comfort in that it seemed he was written out. I loved Portman as Mighty Thor and it's shame this was a one-and-done show (although, as we saw, at least for Asguardians, even the dead are still 'there'). And I'm glad that Chris is still up for more Thor, even though his fellow original Avengers have stepped away from the franchise.
The jealous Stormbreaker gag was quite lame, but the empowering of the children was cool moment.
Lance845 wrote: I DO think there is a penchant for certain people (not just on this forum, but all over the internet) to call things "plot holes" that are actually just forgotten facts. Or ignored circumstances? I dunno. Its something. But its not plot holes.
thats something that is a problem on the internet over all. I forget how many times I've read media articles on the internet titled "NEW MOVIE CREATES A PLOT HOLE IN STAR WARS/STARTREK/THE MCU!" etc that basicly boils down to "something happened in this movie that I actually had to pay attention to and make a logical inferance because they didn't baby walk me through it"
it drives me crazy. if A New Hope was a new movie you'd see these people suggesting the clone wars was a plot hole. because "they mention it and then nothing gets done with it!"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Not throwing shade at anyone in this thread, but whilst some will be acting in bad faith, I think we do need to keep in mind levels of interest in a given franchise or film is not universal. Especially if you’re Universal, as nobody is interested. Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Ahem. Anyways. The MCU is of course phenomenally successful. Success, and sustained success, on a level frankly never before seen, and so far yet to be replicated on any meaningful level.
Each entry absolutely puts bums in seats - but not every bum owner is going to be as invested as we on Dakka. And even on Dakka, those of us with enough interest to play “spot the crossover and that” are probably in a minority.
Me? I’ve just got a good memory, and a knack for linking things together, honed by my profession. So being able to rattle off a quick timeline like I did earlier is kind of second nature. I also really, really like the MCU, and am probably one of the more invested Dakkanauts overall as a result. Not everyone is, and it’s more than OK to forget stuff and think it a plot hole - so long as you don’t get arsey or combative when someone points out stuff you’ve missed or forgotten
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
yeah regarding movies I tend to use the "... would my dad understand this or will I have to spend 20 minutes after the movie explaining it to him?" criteria. My dad is a good example of what is proably the "non-hard core fanbase" for the MCU is, he goes to see explosions and fighting and be enterained, he's not exapcting high art but he does wanna know whats happening etc.
and the only marvel movie I ever recall him "not getting" was X-men Apoclpyse
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Agree with all that. But the people who are kind of out of it and just taking in the movie in front of them in a vacuum are not accusing Wanda of having a weird plot hole filled character arch in MoM. They watch the movie and they go. "Yeah, the red one was the bad guy. Because kids and bad book."
As a single entry viewed entirely on it's own there is no sudden twist for the viewer. It's spelled out clearly from the very beginning. Marvel is GREAT about doing that. Making the movie itself digestible for the average movie goer as a single movie. It's probably the secret of their success.
The people complaining about "plot holes" are people trying and failing to piece together multiple movies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/15 11:52:15
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Voss wrote: No, like most of this, people aren't complaining about plot holes. Just bad writing.
I don't think MoM had bad writing.
Unless you're talking about Thor: Dumb & Dumber, in which case yes, that movie has bad writing, because it takes all of Thor's growth from 6* previous movies, throws them out the window, and applies a -50% modifier to his IQ.
Voss wrote: No, like most of this, people aren't complaining about plot holes. Just bad writing.
I don't think MoM had bad writing.
MoM had terrible, atrocious writing.
Unless you're talking about Thor: Dumb & Dumber, in which case yes, that movie has bad writing, because it takes all of Thor's growth from 6* previous movies, throws them out the window, and applies a -50% modifier to his IQ.
It really doesn't though. Learning to let other people into his heart again is a very sensible followup to the depressed, miserable Thor we saw in Endgame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/15 15:56:44
With out spoilers I'd say that for me the best part of this movie was Zeus and the two goats but also that I enjoyed this one more than I had expected to. Christian Bale could have easily been replaced by Cody from Cracked .com. See the welcome back potter sketches for reference.
Cody would have nailed it as Gore.
The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.
Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.
Voss wrote: No, like most of this, people aren't complaining about plot holes. Just bad writing.
I don't think MoM had bad writing.
Unless you're talking about Thor: Dumb & Dumber, in which case yes, that movie has bad writing, because it takes all of Thor's growth from 6* previous movies, throws them out the window, and applies a -50% modifier to his IQ.
*Thor did not grow in Dark World.
speaking of which, did you sleep through the exposition in L&T? that'd explain your not getting the character development they went through.
we saw in end game thor had gone to sort of a dark place, having no confidance, basicly hanging out "in the basement" (can't remember if it was an actual basement) drinking and playing video games all day shirking responsiabilities etc (king or no he shoulda been deeply involved with new asgard) the end of the movie has him recover his confidance and set off to discover himself.. but it eistablishes he's not really able to let people into him, understandable after so much loss, and it's hinted he'd begun doing so even BEFORE the events of Rangork) love and thunder is about him learning to let people in and him.... really finding a new family.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/15 19:51:14
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I still don't get how Stormbreaker was the key to Eternity when Eternity has been around since time began, possibly earlier, and Stormbreaker was forged 6-7 years ago in Infinity War.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
