Warmachine/Hordes MKIV coming! Update 11/10/23

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**LunarSol**

Fwiw, 50 points is effectively Brawlmachine. Put my list to test tomorrow in WarRoom and it came to a total of 21 points in mk3.

**Leo_the_Rat**

I'm curious about Khador. Are they getting a heavy and a heavier jack or is there going to be a real (not aesthetic) difference between the hulls?

**Laughing Man**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'm curious about Khador. Are they getting a heavy and a heavier jack or is there going to be a real (not aesthetic) difference between the hulls?

There's some differences (armament options, the Great Bear has four more boxes than the Dire Wolf, etc.), but yeah, Khador doesn't do light warjacks.

**Voss**

Khador (formerly, I guess) had the Berserker (and Mad Dog?) chassis, which while not a light, was less armored and had fewer boxes (and a busted cortex, in the case of the Berserker).

The demolisher/devastaor/spriggan also had a different look, with more armor (but mostly on the arms and top), with the devastator being more vulnerable once it 'opened up' to attack.

The originals (destroyer, juggernaut and marauder) took a definite downgrade in sculpt quality when they moved to plastic, so there's definite concern for what their new stuff will look like, even if they can lure players back.

**LunarSol**

Rules are up. Basically yeah, the Dire Wolf is similar to an upgraded Berserker chassis. Still a heavy, but a lighter heavy with less armor and boxes. It’s weapon options feel a bit more support focused and it’s got shield guard available.

The Great Bear is the new Juggernaut chassis. Very similar stat line as before with really hard hitting guns and melee weapons. The main configs that stand out to me are a couple melee beater setups as well as a very slam focused ranged option.

**Voss**

The Khador rules, by the by, are stuffed into an updated version of the beta cards. In middle (pages 43-50). With the faction spells towards the end (pages 97-98). Because.

Its really weird for a Khador caster to just have a battlegroup full of arc nodes. For free.

I kind of don't like the spell racks and the customizable nature of the warjacks. It seems way too easy. All the major tools are in there, just waiting to be combo'd.

----
Kind of hate that the shield guard ability is completely independent of actually having a shield.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Very noob question here but WTF happened to WarmaHordes? I remember back when 40k 6e came out and it seemed that TONS of players were jumping over to PP and WarmaHordes was growing fast with a lot of new players seemingly everyday.

But then it all just petered out after a few years and now I don't see anyone in my local group playing it anymore. Did people go back to GW after they got their sh!t together and fixed 40k and AoS or something?

**hotsauceman1**

to make a long story short.
Mk3 came out and the bungled the release, Skorne needed like, all new rules, models where years late(Skorne Hydra).
Its not helped by having a reputation(partially deserved) of being for competitive WAAC players that only played tournament games and would not foster new players
This was also when 8th came out and brought alot of people back to 40k.

**aphyon**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Very noob question here but WTF happened to WarmaHordes? I remember back when 40k 6e came out and it seemed that TONS of players were jumping over to PP and WarmaHordes was growing fast with a lot of new players seemingly everyday.

But then it all just petered out after a few years and now I don't see anyone in my local group playing it anymore. Did people go back to GW after they got their sh!t together and fixed 40k and AoS or something?

Yes and no. 6th ed 40K was a train wreck that GW killed after 2 years. it pretty well killed the game so players were looking for something else. there were loads of new options-warmachine, infinity, malafuax etc....

PP suffered from a string of setbacks at the same time GW was hitting the reset button with 8th ed 40K that showed some promise. they lost the free promotion of the press ganger teams, suffered supply/shipping issues as well as model quality issues.

They are still a tiny company that was rivaling GW at the time. the other problem was the community. because of MK 1/2 the hard focus was on tournament play that became toxic and turned off new players. MKIII was far more friendly to new players but it turned off many of the above mentioned MK 1/2 players. i actually quite enjoy MKIII as does our FLGS group (we have on average of 11 active players on any weekend) However that is mostly because our group is a casual "play what you like" sort of group so we avoid the steamroller tournament rules, themed lists. and we tend to play to the games strengths as a smaller points skirmish system.

Now the tables are sort of switched GW has once again turned 40K into a dumpster fire with 9th ed, and players are looking for other options. catalyst game labs release of affordable good quality plastic miniatures for battletech has caused an explosion of players, many moving over from 40K. PP is trying to jump on the band wagon with a complete "end times" style reset of the WM/H brand in an attempt to bring in new players with a simpler game that borrows heavily from other popular systems.

Much like 8th ed 40K on is a completely different game from the comparatively similar 3rd-7th ed 40K. MKIV WM/H is a completely different game than MK I-III.

It remains to be seen if it will draw in younger/newer gamers, some of us like what it is and will continue to play MKIII with our now "retired" miniatures.

The only real positive i see out of this is PP taking the big step into 3d printing like some other smaller companies have done to address material cost/supply issues as well as shipping.

**Kommisar**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Very noob question here but WTF happened to WarmaHordes? I remember back when 40k 6e came out and it seemed that TONS of players were jumping over to PP and WarmaHordes was growing fast with a lot of new players seemingly everyday.

But then it all just petered out after a few years and now I don't see anyone in my local group playing it anymore. Did people go back to GW after they got their sh!t together and fixed 40k and AoS or something?

This has been talked about ad nauseam for years but it comes down to a few things happening all in quick succession:

pp killed their forums, killed the press ganger program, released mk3 before it was ready, released pvc models that were literal garbage, started a cycle of community play testing that meant the game was constantly in flux, sold tons of mystery boxes of products for steep discounts that cut out flgs’s, 8th edition 40k. I’m sure there’s more but that’s a quick summary.

**ScarletRose**

Kommisar wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Very noob question here but WTF happened to WarmaHordes? I remember back when 40k 6e came out and it seemed that TONS of players were jumping over to PP and WarmaHordes was growing fast with a lot of new players seemingly everyday.

But then it all just petered out after a few years and now I don't see anyone in my local group playing it anymore. Did people go back to GW after they got their sh!t together and fixed 40k and AoS or something?

This has been talked about ad nauseam for years but it comes down to a few things happening all in quick succession:

pp killed their forums, killed the press ganger program, released mk3 before it was ready, released pvc models that were literal garbage, started a cycle of community play testing that meant the game was constantly in flux, sold tons of mystery boxes of products for steep discounts that cut out flgs’s, 8th edition 40k. I’m sure there’s more but that’s a quick summary.

I'd also add the failure to produce/transition to hard plastics in there too. When the first few jacks didn't work out they didn't seem to learn and reevaluate instead jumping to a medium inferior to both metal and polystyrene.

**Vertrucio**

All of the above, and they alienated a lot of retailers by doing a poor job of being their own distributor, then they alienated most of their player base by focusing too hard on the competitive hardcore audience.

Anyway... Knowing what the latest consumer grade (cheap) printers are capable of, it's certainly possible it can work using the new 8k large format printers for both quality and volume.

Unlike other 3D printing enthusiasts, I know that not everyone can or wants to 3D print stuff and deal with that mess. Just like 3D print enthusiasts aren't going to sculpt their own STLs most of the time. A lot of the most popular STL places that are used as examples couldn't support a studio, and are usually producing knock offs (no matter how good the knock offs happen to be) of other IP, usually GW's.

Until 3D printing becomes as safe and simple as say, an office printer or a microwave, there's still an opportunity for a well made IP to produce miniatures within it.

Just hope they don't use basic AF resin that's brittle, and spring for a higher grade resin, or mixture, that's more durable.

**FrozenDwarf**

RazorEdge wrote:
Never heared of sun melted resin...

Never heard of the infamus "failcast"?, (aka Finecast) It was the primary reason why GWs attempt to move to resin from white metal failed hard, and forced them to create better tools and machines to go 100% on plastic.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Thanks for the info guys. Wow I knew it was bad but I didn't know it was that bad. When I last seriously looked in on Warmachines back around 2014 or so everything looked on the up-and-up for PP. But it looks like they pulled a 6e 40k and it's just been mistake after mistake for them. Really hope they turn things around with MKIV

**Monkeysloth**

The recent primecast listed out what legacy armies would get ported over to MK4. This list is from Reddit.

All limited armies will be 100% ported to Prime which includes: Convergence of Cyriss, Crucible Guard, Grymkin, Infernals

Mercenaries will have four seperate prime armies: Steelheads, Talion Charter, Rhul, Cephalyx

Minions will have an army for each of its major halves: Thornfall Alliance, Blindwater Congregation

Each major faction will have two prime armies, two of which were confirmed: Cygnar - Gravediggers, Khador - Armored Korps

Banes for Cryx and Exemplars for Menoth are also already confirmed from the beta cards.

**insaniak**

ScarletRose wrote:

I'd also add the failure to produce/transition to hard plastics in there too. When the first few jacks didn't work out they didn't seem to learn and reevaluate instead jumping to a medium inferior to both metal and polystyrene.

I would suspect the problem there was that they were counting on those first couple of plastic kits funding the next round of development, and when that didn't happen they wound up having to dig themselves out of a hole.

**AduroT**

From another forum I frequent…

ok summary from the Matt Wilson portion of primecast

- he talked honestly about while they wanted to preserve the back catalog, they are a company and need to sell models
- catalog was too big and no store nor distributor could manage it
- with such a large catalog it could take a worker half an afternoon to spin up a mold if someone ordered someone uncommonly produced
- retread about volatile metal market plus how each extra ounce increases shipping cost, plus how china plastic is unreliable with huge min orders
- 3D printing is cheaper but with increased engineering costs so its a wash and prices will remain roughly the same
- Traditional molds you would need to make things like a torso multiple pieces in order to leave a gap for a magnet. New technology gaps are easy to put in
- all pre digital sculpts will be phased out but did leave room to convert newer 3d sculpts to 3D print files if they think its needed for the game. Monpoc was used as example in that its a game where the entire line is digital sculpts so will be converted over eventually
- $75 gencon sample boxes are (from his point of view) equal value to the old $50 battleboxes when you factor in 6 year difference in value of goods plus each Warjack coming with different weapons
- European printing wont be able to avoid things like Import or VAT taxes but does let them circumvent the expensive shipping

Summary from the Soles/Erik Reiersen portion of Primecast

- Units are way more flexible in their movement with the new system
- as a counterbalance though is their smaller model count and things like AOE 2 being quite deadly to a unit where all models are 2" apart
- Casters being brought forward into Prime armies will have their abilities and spell lists evaluated and in some cases it may feel like a brand new caster
- Man o War, Trenchers, Steelhead, Cephallyx, Rhullic, Talion Pirates, Gators, and Farrow will be Prime armies
- support in those armies will be brought forward, everything that is currently man o war focused will be in their prime force

Charles Forster III summary

- prep work for new models is just 3-4 min to clip off the little nubs
- no more mold lines to clean off
- less pieces equal less barrier to entry for new players, no more Cylenna and Nyss Hunter horror stories
- magnets werent the first choice, they first experimented with friction sockets
- when magnets were chosen they wanted them to be hefty enough that arms wont fall off unless you pull. 3/16 for arms and 1/8 for smaller pieces like the light warjack head
- will be small learning curve for people who havent used magnets before. Always check polarity and make sure the glue dries before you try to attack and detach arms
- use a non metal object, like the end of an old paint brush, to push the magnets with glue into sockets
- Doug Hamilton is finishing up the last few Dusk models now so previews will be a little ways out on those

Oh yea forgot some stuff from the primecast about the new app

- you'll be able to click on card symbols and itll pull up the actual rule. Example was given for clicking on symbol for a power attack
- can print cards from the app
- localized list saving
- all rules for every faction free
- premium content for monthly fee similar to old no quarter so will provide fluff, narative style scenarios, tactical articles, etc

**stonehorse**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Very noob question here but WTF happened to WarmaHordes? I remember back when 40k 6e came out and it seemed that TONS of players were jumping over to PP and WarmaHordes was growing fast with a lot of new players seemingly everyday.

But then it all just petered out after a few years and now I don't see anyone in my local group playing it anymore. Did people go back to GW after they got their sh!t together and fixed 40k and AoS or something?

Think people have givensome excellent points about what happened. A few points I'd like to add, which killed the game at my old club.

• Infantry where a better investment than Warjacks within the game. Which was at odds with the theme and idea of the game.

• The constant releases started to erode what made the factions unique. The lines of distinction blurred, until each faction could more or less do what the other factions did well.

I honestly think that the constant release of new, bigger, and better stuff is what has backed PP into this corner, and needing to do a hard reset. If they had of just kept the models at Prime, Primal, and do equivalent for Mercs, and the other odd ball stuff (Grymkin, Infernal, etc). Then with each new edition update those models, it wouldn't lead to such a bloated catalogue, help stop Infantry dominating, and help keep the distinctions between the factions.

I think PP got carried away with their own perceived success.

**Cyel**

Kommisar wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Very noob question here but WTF happened to WarmaHordes? I remember back when 40k 6e came out and it seemed that TONS of players were jumping over to PP and WarmaHordes was growing fast with a lot of new players seemingly everyday.

But then it all just petered out after a few years and now I don't see anyone in my local group playing it anymore. Did people go back to GW after they got their sh!t together and fixed 40k and AoS or something?

This has been talked about ad nauseam for years but it comes down to a few things happening all in quick succession:

pp killed their forums, killed the press ganger program, released mk3 before it was ready, released pvc models that were literal garbage, started a cycle of community play testing that meant the game was constantly in flux, sold tons of mystery boxes of products for steep discounts that cut out flgs’s, 8th edition 40k. I’m sure there’s more but that’s a quick summary.

But most of all absurd prices. Buying GW equivalents to convert (or just use outright) could be half as expensive as buying similar PP models which is really saying something.

If ~10 years ago someone told me that GW is going to be a cheap alternative to some other game, letting you save half the price, I would laugh at the joke. And yet, here we are :]

**FrozenDwarf**

AduroT wrote:
From another forum I frequent…

ok summary from the Matt Wilson portion of primecast

- he talked honestly about while they wanted to preserve the back catalog, they are a company and need to sell models
- catalog was too big and no store nor distributor could manage it
- with such a large catalog it could take a worker half an afternoon to spin up a mold if someone ordered someone uncommonly produced
- retread about volatile metal market plus how each extra ounce increases shipping cost, plus how china plastic is unreliable with huge min orders
- 3D printing is cheaper but with increased engineering costs so its a wash and prices will remain roughly the same
- Traditional molds you would need to make things like a torso multiple pieces in order to leave a gap for a magnet. New technology gaps are easy to put in
- all pre digital sculpts will be phased out but did leave room to convert newer 3d sculpts to 3D print files if they think its needed for the game. Monpoc was used as example in that its a game where the entire line is digital sculpts so will be converted over eventually
- $75 gencon sample boxes are (from his point of view) equal value to the old $50 battleboxes when you factor in 6 year difference in value of goods plus each Warjack coming with different weapons
- European printing wont be able to avoid things like Import or VAT taxes but does let them circumvent the expensive shipping

Summary from the Soles/Erik Reiersen portion of Primecast

- Units are way more flexible in their movement with the new system
- as a counterbalance though is their smaller model count and things like AOE 2 being quite deadly to a unit where all models are 2" apart
- Casters being brought forward into Prime armies will have their abilities and spell lists evaluated and in some cases it may feel like a brand new caster
- Man o War, Trenchers, Steelhead, Cephallyx, Rhullic, Talion Pirates, Gators, and Farrow will be Prime armies
- support in those armies will be brought forward, everything that is currently man o war focused will be in their prime force

Charles Forster III summary

- prep work for new models is just 3-4 min to clip off the little nubs
- no more mold lines to clean off
- less pieces equal less barrier to entry for new players, no more Cylenna and Nyss Hunter horror stories
- magnets werent the first choice, they first experimented with friction sockets
- when magnets were chosen they wanted them to be hefty enough that arms wont fall off unless you pull. 3/16 for arms and 1/8 for smaller pieces like the light warjack head
- will be small learning curve for people who havent used magnets before. Always check polarity and make sure the glue dries before you try to attack and detach arms
- use a non metal object, like the end of an old paint brush, to push the magnets with glue into sockets
- Doug Hamilton is finishing up the last few Dusk models now so previews will be a little ways out on those

Oh yea forgot some stuff from the primecast about the new app

- you'll be able to click on card symbols and itll pull up the actual rule. Example was given for clicking on symbol for a power attack
- can print cards from the app
- localized list saving
- all rules for every faction free
- premium content for monthly fee similar to old no quarter so will provide fluff, narative style scenarios, tactical articles, etc

This filled up some of the info gaps we had from the press release. More facts we get from the devs, the less jumping to conclusions we need to do.

**Albertorius**

AduroT wrote:
From another forum I frequent…

ok summary from the Matt Wilson portion of primecast
- European printing wont be able to avoid things like Import or VAT taxes but does let them circumvent the expensive shipping

So we're talking $100+ gencon samples and $250+ the regular army boxes? Hm... right.

**Sarouan**

FrozenDwarf wrote:

- 3D printing is cheaper but with increased engineering costs so its a wash and prices will remain roughly the same

Of course they'll do.

**McDougall Designs**

As a person in the industry, I wanted to give my perspective about that primecast info:

If they are still getting hit with, and consequently charging VAT, then the European production center is most likely in the UK. They could have avoided this by having it in Ireland for example.

I find his notes on sprue production to be on the mark based on prior knowledge, especially about the huge minimum orders.

But he could have potentially looked into us-based production companies like War Games Atlantic and had good quality plastic with (most likely) fairer production requirements.

**FrozenDwarf**

McDougall Designs wrote:
As a person in the industry, I wanted to give my perspective about that primecast info:

If they are still getting hit with, and consequently charging VAT, then the European production center is most likely in the UK..

Hope not. If this is the case then mk4 warmachine wont make any apparence in norway atleast. after brexit, any form of import from uk is more expensive and more time consuming then importing from u.s.
If they want to sell mk4 in eu, then the print center has to be located in central EU.

**Sarouan**

McDougall Designs wrote:
As a person in the industry, I wanted to give my perspective about that primecast info:

If they are still getting hit with, and consequently charging VAT, then the European production center is most likely in the UK. They could have avoided this by having it in Ireland for example.

I find his notes on sprue production to be on the mark based on prior knowledge, especially about the huge minimum orders.

But he could have potentially looked into us-based production companies like War Games Atlantic and had good quality plastic with (most likely) fairer production requirements.

Privateer Press never understood the European market before, it's not a surprise they'll still miss it with this. They were always US centered.

Besides, I'm not even sure they actually think they'll make a profit in Europe anyway.

The head is still the same, hubris as well. Why would they magically change ? Because you'd think they'd be competent ? Of course they would repeat the same mistakes than before.

**tneva82**

Wouldn't VAT apply anyway? Or doesn't US have one?

At least here you pay finnish VAT even if you are producing IN Finland.

But of course if you sell from UK to Finland you aren't at least supposed to apply UK VAT to it(that's double taxation and seeing UK gov isn't getting that money it's basically company pocketing up it for yourself) so basically you remove the UK VAT from price and then add up relevant VAT of target country.

In same way EU based stories selling to US have option for non-VAT price. Precisely when selling outside the EU so VAT isn't applied.

But whether you are selling from US, UK or inside EU at some point you are expected to pay VAT. Well maybe not in US. Maybe they don't have it? But do know UK has one.

BTW if US does have VAT is that 200$ before or after VAT?

**McDougall Designs**

Sarouan wrote:
McDougall Designs wrote:
As a person in the industry, I wanted to give my perspective about that primecast info:

If they are still getting hit with, and consequently charging VAT, then the European production center is most likely in the UK. They could have avoided this by having it in Ireland for example.

I find his notes on sprue production to be on the mark based on prior knowledge, especially about the huge minimum orders.

But he could have potentially looked into us-based production companies like War Games Atlantic and had good quality plastic with (most likely) fairer production requirements.

Privateer Press never understood the European market before, it's not a surprise they'll still miss it with this. They were always US centered.

Besides, I'm not even sure they actually think they'll make a profit in Europe anyway.

The head is still the same, hubris as well. Why would they magically change ? Because you'd think they'd be competent ? Of course they would repeat the same mistakes than before.

Not unless they radically changed the way they approach business.

They are obviously competent enough to be able to find investors for this MKIV attempt.

They seem to be short-sighted and definitely not even attempting enough research (either behind-the-scenes or publicly.

My own methodology to business comes from my historical research background. For example: if I notice a problem and don't correct it, it's highly likely it will happen again.

I'm not sure whether this attempt at MkIV it will fail or succeed. I do know that 3D printing for profit does not scale well for mass produced miniature wargames items. Key word being "mass produced."

Because frankly, this is a volume business. I personally think they would be better suited engaging a US or UK based production firm and signing deals with traditional distributors like bridge distribution in the US and Sarissa in the UK.

**NAVARRO**

Metal volatile, China unreliable, so we move to cheaper 3d and apparently bad quality print to save money and make it possible for you guys. Price the same though enjoy!

**Eilif**

AduroT wrote:
From another forum I frequent…

ok summary from the Matt Wilson portion of primecast

- he talked honestly about while they wanted to preserve the back catalog, they are a company and need to sell models
- catalog was too big and no store nor distributor could manage it
- with such a large catalog it could take a worker half an afternoon to spin up a mold if someone ordered someone uncommonly produced
- retread about volatile metal market plus how each extra ounce increases shipping cost, plus how china plastic is unreliable with huge min orders
- 3D printing is cheaper but with increased engineering costs so its a wash and prices will remain roughly the same
- Traditional molds you would need to make things like a torso multiple pieces in order to leave a gap for a magnet. New technology gaps are easy to put in
- all pre digital sculpts will be phased out but did leave room to convert newer 3d sculpts to 3D print files if they think its needed for the game. Monpoc was used as example in that its a game where the entire line is digital sculpts so will be converted over eventually
- $75 gencon sample boxes are (from his point of view) equal value to the old $50 battleboxes when you factor in 6 year difference in value of goods plus each Warjack coming with different weapons
- European printing wont be able to avoid things like Import or VAT taxes but does let them circumvent the expensive shipping

Summary from the Soles/Erik Reiersen portion of Primecast

- Units are way more flexible in their movement with the new system
- as a counterbalance though is their smaller model count and things like AOE 2 being quite deadly to a unit where all models are 2" apart
- Casters being brought forward into Prime armies will have their abilities and spell lists evaluated and in some cases it may feel like a brand new caster
- Man o War, Trenchers, Steelhead, Cephallyx, Rhullic, Talion Pirates, Gators, and Farrow will be Prime armies
- support in those armies will be brought forward, everything that is currently man o war focused will be in their prime force

Charles Forster III summary

- prep work for new models is just 3-4 min to clip off the little nubs
- no more mold lines to clean off
- less pieces equal less barrier to entry for new players, no more Cylenna and Nyss Hunter horror stories
- magnets werent the first choice, they first experimented with friction sockets
- when magnets were chosen they wanted them to be hefty enough that arms wont fall off unless you pull. 3/16 for arms and 1/8 for smaller pieces like the light warjack head
- will be small learning curve for people who havent used magnets before. Always check polarity and make sure the glue dries before you try to attack and detach arms
- use a non metal object, like the end of an old paint brush, to push the magnets with glue into sockets
- Doug Hamilton is finishing up the last few Dusk models now so previews will be a little ways out on those

Oh yea forgot some stuff from the primecast about the new app

- you'll be able to click on card symbols and itll pull up the actual rule. Example was given for clicking on symbol for a power attack
- can print cards from the app
- localized list saving
- all rules for every faction free
- premium content for monthly fee similar to old no quarter so will provide fluff, narative style scenarios, tactical articles, etc

Thanks for that summary. I don't have any interest in WM as a gamer, but I've been watching from afar. I've skeptical about some of the directions they're taking but I have always hoped that Warmahordes would revive and survive simply because it's an iconic property and competition in the industry can only be a good thing. Whatever they do, I hope it works out for them and their playerbase.

Plus, Warjacks are just cool and the wargaming world would be lessened without them. My 6 modified Khador Warjacks (run as KOW Varangur Trolls) are still among my favorite miniatures.

**Kaptajn Congoboy**

I've seen quite a few models from other people who go the new kits now and the stuff that's been put everywhere does not seem representative at all. I guess it says something about their confidence in the kits when they give a "satisfaction or your money back guarantee".

I see I am a bit late to the party regarding the discussion over stls and how they can be made profitable that I fell off due to RL yesterday, but I will say that I believe that the only way companies selling stls in the current environment of rampany piracy and no functioning DRM is to turn the whole thing on its head:

You have an app or program people subscribe to for all the content, and through it you get FREE stls. But the app is the only way to play the game - all the rules, cards and updates is on it. As is lore, scenarios, articles et cetera (much like War Room 3). It would have to be a pretty good piece of software, of course. And it would turn a lot of people off. But it would circumvent the sharing of stls issue.