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Do you have something to contribute to this topic or are you just looking to be contrarian?
Flamers are pretty obviously one of the best units in the game, and have a high chance of being nerfed in the coming weeks. You don't have to be embarrassed about it.
artific3r wrote: Do you have something to contribute to this topic or are you just looking to be contrarian?
Flamers are pretty obviously one of the best units in the game, and have a high chance of being nerfed in the coming weeks. You don't have to be embarrassed about it.
I didn't say they weren't.
But can I get a link to the Art of War article? Because again-if they said (and not just Void Dragon) that an unbuffed Flamer does 3 wounds to a Marine on average... That's just plain wrong.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Ecdain wrote: Hi all! I'm tuning up a list for an upcoming tournament and feel my list is lacking some speed, how are people feeling about flesh hounds/screamers?
As a pure Khorne player? I love my Khorne dogs. My demons never go to battle without them. They've taken objectives, eaten termies, tied up enemy units screened my backfield.... And I love the current sculpts.
Screamers? Well, the only place I play any Tzeentch demons is in War Cry. And I only own 1 screamer (it's all I need in that game) But I can definitely see some use for them. Mostly grabbing objectives while other demons do the fighting. Current model isn't bad.
Yeah ive tried hounds once and they did pretty much everything, just not amazing at any of it. But they are pretty great utility being quick, unlocking a 3+ deny strat and being able to deny themselves as well having a flamer(albeit not as good as the flamers but that makes sense to me xD). Just wish they hit a little harder...
Screamers I've always loved the idea of, SUPER fast, decent survivability now with the 3++ to shooting. Camping with them in a corner isn't bad at all. But hitting on 4s just loses it for me 😞
The problem for me I feel is that fiends exist and I can't help but compare.. they are so good at their roles I makes me seriously consider breaking warpstorm bonus to bring them
Also when your charge attack buff is +1dam from 1 to 2 in a world where -1 dam exists...Feels iffy.
Well haven't had much use from them yet. First go yesterday vs dark angels. They were fast so got to objective quickly which was nice and kept dreadnought busy for a while but nothing spectacular but then again when only thing nearby is dreadnought not much for them to do. Besides keep dreadnought busy long enough for LOC to greet it with wave of mortal wounds
Myself for speed have used bloodcrushers but flesh hounds are on next to-try list.
tneva82 wrote: Also when your charge attack buff is +1dam from 1 to 2 in a world where -1 dam exists...Feels iffy.
Well haven't had much use from them yet. First go yesterday vs dark angels. They were fast so got to objective quickly which was nice and kept dreadnought busy for a while but nothing spectacular but then again when only thing nearby is dreadnought not much for them to do. Besides keep dreadnought busy long enough for LOC to greet it with wave of mortal wounds
Myself for speed have used bloodcrushers but flesh hounds are on next to-try list.
Pretty much the same, I brought 2x5 against orks. One screened my characters and lasted exactly as long as it took him to charge them, and the other swung round the side to tick up reality rebels and fight for a far off objective(lost to boys but bought time for flamers to catch up and win that side of the board). They weren't amazing, but their jobs got done.
Fiends though! 14" move T5 4W, squad of 5 swings in for 21 S5 -2 D2 and another 5 S5 -3 D2 attacks hitting on 3s. Plus the -1 to hit to engaged units. Add the 5+ fnp spell and enrapturess to bring one back every turn. That's a unit that's more than annoying on your flank! Depending on how bad flamers get nerfed I might bring in this slasnesh package to replace it honestly, would vice different feel and playstyle, but I think would be pretty great pressure
JNAProductions wrote: That doesn’t change the unbuffed math.
If Art of War claimed they do an average of 3 wounds to MEQ without buffs, they’re just plain wrong.
I actually just forgot to factor in Armour of Contempt tbh
JNAProductions wrote: That doesn’t change the unbuffed math.
If Art of War claimed they do an average of 3 wounds to MEQ without buffs, they’re just plain wrong.
I actually just forgot to factor in Armour of Contempt tbh
Fair.
I’d still be curious to see the Art of War article, but I completely understand forgetting one of Marine’s million and one special rules.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Screamers I've always loved the idea of, SUPER fast, decent survivability now with the 3++ to shooting. Camping with them in a corner isn't bad at all. But hitting on 4s just loses it for me 😞
I've been using screamers to selectively murder characters by overflying them. takes some positioning to pull off, but works great
JNAProductions wrote: That doesn’t change the unbuffed math.
If Art of War claimed they do an average of 3 wounds to MEQ without buffs, they’re just plain wrong.
I actually just forgot to factor in Armour of Contempt tbh
Fair.
I’d still be curious to see the Art of War article, but I completely understand forgetting one of Marine’s million and one special rules.
Screamers I've always loved the idea of, SUPER fast, decent survivability now with the 3++ to shooting. Camping with them in a corner isn't bad at all. But hitting on 4s just loses it for me 😞
I've been using screamers to selectively murder characters by overflying them. takes some positioning to pull off, but works great
wait, how? 6 screamers will do ~3 mortals on average
I imagine it would depend on the types of characters you are facing. There are a number that have 4 wounds (Sisters and Guard). Also a mix of Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway would help considerably.
I imagine it would depend on the types of characters you are facing. There are a number that have 4 wounds (Sisters and Guard). Also a mix of Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway would help considerably.
but then you're using 180 pts of screamers to kill characters that are less than 100pts (and losing your screamers because theyre so fragile), unless the characters have reallllly good auras, i don't see it as a worthwhile trade personally.
I imagine it would depend on the types of characters you are facing. There are a number that have 4 wounds (Sisters and Guard). Also a mix of Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway would help considerably.
but then you're using 180 pts of screamers to kill characters that are less than 100pts (and losing your screamers because theyre so fragile), unless the characters have reallllly good auras, i don't see it as a worthwhile trade personally.
Agreed, I don't bring them because of how unreliable they are in a fight. To me they are secondary shuttles and maybe hit a backline obj.
Screamers I've always loved the idea of, SUPER fast, decent survivability now with the 3++ to shooting. Camping with them in a corner isn't bad at all. But hitting on 4s just loses it for me 😞
I've been using screamers to selectively murder characters by overflying them. takes some positioning to pull off, but works great
wait, how? 6 screamers will do ~3 mortals on average
As was posted, I face a lot of Eldar/Guard/Sisters/GSC, stuff that has lower wounds count for support characters. it's less directly intentional and more just trying to work them in as targets of opportunity.
I imagine it would depend on the types of characters you are facing. There are a number that have 4 wounds (Sisters and Guard). Also a mix of Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway would help considerably.
but then you're using 180 pts of screamers to kill characters that are less than 100pts (and losing your screamers because theyre so fragile), unless the characters have reallllly good auras, i don't see it as a worthwhile trade personally.
Its less that you're dedicating them to character killing and more as stated an opportunistic thing. the main reason I take them is because they're fast for objective capture, reasonably durable against shooting, and great at removing vehicles from the board, with a unit of 6 easily capable of removing more than their points value simply with a mix of overflight MW and chewing apart a tank.
It takes 6 screamers two fight phases, maybe even three, to chew through a T7 W12 tank, thats not great. With 1CP for that +1 to wound strat you can kill that tank in two fight phases. Who still plays tanks anyway ? Guard is the only faction i can think of.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/25 07:59:00
p5freak wrote: It takes 6 screamers two fight phases, maybe even three, to chew through a T7 W12 tank, thats not great. With 1CP for that +1 to wound strat you can kill that tank in two fight phases. Who still plays tanks anyway ? Guard is the only faction i can think of.
base screamers yes, but if you're using screamers as can openers you generally don't leave them unbuffed. warp jaws, boon of change, maybe a fateskimmer or LoC (or belakor) nearby. the herald RR1s to wound aura makes a big difference, actually slightly more of a difference than rr1s to hit.
yes people will argue to use boon on flamers, but that's not always the best call depending on what you're targeting with flamers. most of the time as long as you can get the flamers to S6 (via exalted) that's a good enough breakpoint for most of what you're shooting.
Ideal usage of points is debatable, but I've found fasteskimmer backing said screamers to be enough of a threat that it soaks up a ton of hate from my regular opponents.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/25 09:56:56
base screamers yes, but if you're using screamers as can openers you generally don't leave them unbuffed. warp jaws, boon of change, maybe a fateskimmer or LoC (or belakor) nearby. the herald RR1s to wound aura makes a big difference, actually slightly more of a difference than rr1s to hit.
Thats a lot of resources to kill a ~100 pts. tank.
base screamers yes, but if you're using screamers as can openers you generally don't leave them unbuffed. warp jaws, boon of change, maybe a fateskimmer or LoC (or belakor) nearby. the herald RR1s to wound aura makes a big difference, actually slightly more of a difference than rr1s to hit.
Thats a lot of resources to kill a ~100 pts. tank.
So send in vs more expensive tank.
But shows how silly game damage is when <200 unit is expected to one shot way more expensive than 100 pts unit. For good game 300 pts unit shouldn't be able to one shot reliably anything above 100 pts.
base screamers yes, but if you're using screamers as can openers you generally don't leave them unbuffed. warp jaws, boon of change, maybe a fateskimmer or LoC (or belakor) nearby. the herald RR1s to wound aura makes a big difference, actually slightly more of a difference than rr1s to hit.
Thats a lot of resources to kill a ~100 pts. tank.
I'm talking about a T8 target, not T7. so things that are usually in the 150+ points range
Fateskimmer gives RR1s to wound base, warp jaws +1 to wound, and boon str 7. meaning vs a T8 vehicle you'd need 4s (with each then saved on 6s):
https://anydice.com/program/2bb2c
End result is most of the time you will do the necessary 12-14 wounds needed to kill a T8 target, and easily break open T7s without needing to invest as much. bikes and lighter transports (venoms, buggies, etc) are an especially good option to kill
p5freak wrote: It takes 6 screamers two fight phases, maybe even three, to chew through a T7 W12 tank, thats not great. With 1CP for that +1 to wound strat you can kill that tank in two fight phases.
Ok. Pretend you're a Tzeentch player. What would you send against a tank? That's not already busy dealing with something else?
p5freak wrote: Who still plays tanks anyway ? Guard is the only faction i can think of.
Well my Grot army is almost exclusively made up of vehicles - grot tanks, mega-tanks, gunz, trucks, a Wazbomb.
And I've seen plenty of other Ork players using plenty of buggies, trucks, flyers, kill rigs, etc.
I've never seen a functional Harliquin force that doesn't bring star/void weavers. And alot of Drukhari players seem to think Raiders & Ravagers are important elements of their force....
In a week or three I don't think you'll see very many Votann players without vehicles.
And of course Knights (does it really matter if your tank has treads or walks on two legs?).
And regardless of whatever you're seeing in your tournies, I assure you that vehicles of all sorts are being used in casual/pick-up game play.
p5freak wrote: It takes 6 screamers two fight phases, maybe even three, to chew through a T7 W12 tank, thats not great. With 1CP for that +1 to wound strat you can kill that tank in two fight phases.
Ok. Pretend you're a Tzeentch player. What would you send against a tank? That's not already busy dealing with something else?
flamers and mortal wounds
or even better : just ignore it and cockblock it with your 3+ save
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/25 16:02:11
p5freak wrote: It takes 6 screamers two fight phases, maybe even three, to chew through a T7 W12 tank, thats not great. With 1CP for that +1 to wound strat you can kill that tank in two fight phases.
Ok. Pretend you're a Tzeentch player. What would you send against a tank? That's not already busy dealing with something else?
p5freak wrote: Who still plays tanks anyway ? Guard is the only faction i can think of.
Well my Grot army is almost exclusively made up of vehicles - grot tanks, mega-tanks, gunz, trucks, a Wazbomb.
And I've seen plenty of other Ork players using plenty of buggies, trucks, flyers, kill rigs, etc.
I've never seen a functional Harliquin force that doesn't bring star/void weavers. And alot of Drukhari players seem to think Raiders & Ravagers are important elements of their force....
In a week or three I don't think you'll see very many Votann players without vehicles.
And of course Knights (does it really matter if your tank has treads or walks on two legs?).
And regardless of whatever you're seeing in your tournies, I assure you that vehicles of all sorts are being used in casual/pick-up game play.
Well i presume you have flamers and those delete anything.
Alternatively l presume not tougher than wardog so loc can deal with one.
As a mono Tzeentch player you are screwed against a vehicle list. I don't think any mono faction will be successful in the long run. All have their strength and weakness. Mixing is the way to go, and as it looks like so far Tzeentch and Khorne is a good combination.
p5freak wrote: As a mono Tzeentch player you are screwed against a vehicle list.
uh.... no, very hard no.
plenty of ways of dealing with vehicles, from screamers to the multi-smites and other mind bullets you should be packing as mono tzeentch, to say nothing of the flamers and exalteds.
of all the potential mono-god lists, tzeentch is pretty much the most prepared for dealing with vehicles because they don't need big smashy greater daemons to get the job done.
Nurgle is probably second best on account of MW output and auto-wounds on 'plague weapons', but still relies more on melee
p5freak wrote: As a mono Tzeentch player you are screwed against a vehicle list. I don't think any mono faction will be successful in the long run. All have their strength and weakness. Mixing is the way to go, and as it looks like so far Tzeentch and Khorne is a good combination.
Are vehicles tougher than 22W T8 4+ unrendable?
Howabout T7 W14 3+/5++ -1dam?
If those are eaten alive by tzeentch how much harder vehicles can be?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/26 09:56:40
I was unpacking my 40k stuff in my new flat and came across my Tzeench stuff, which I've never actually used in a game before. Would be good to finally give them a go but I'm pretty lost when it comes to working out how to actually run a psychic-heavy force, as one failed test seems to screw up most tactics from what I've seen.
I currently have the following at my disposal:
Lord of Change (could count as Kairos due to the conversion work)
Daemon Prince
2x Heralds, magnetised so can be on foot or Disk
30x Horrors
10x Blue Horrors
6x Screamers
9x Flamers
2x Exalted Flamers, can be the chariot version if the Heralds are on foot.
A rough estimation on Battlescribe shows this is rather close to 2000 points but it seems really light in terms of numbers. I'm just wondering what the general tactics are for a mono-Tzeench force. Seems there's been some discussion about vehicles but I can just see the majority of this force getting gunned down pretty quickly.
p5freak wrote: As a mono Tzeentch player you are screwed against a vehicle list.
uh.... no, very hard no.
plenty of ways of dealing with vehicles, from screamers to the multi-smites and other mind bullets you should be packing as mono tzeentch, to say nothing of the flamers and exalteds.
of all the potential mono-god lists, tzeentch is pretty much the most prepared for dealing with vehicles because they don't need big smashy greater daemons to get the job done.
Nurgle is probably second best on account of MW output and auto-wounds on 'plague weapons', but still relies more on melee
We will talk again when the new AM Codex arrives. Your smites will go into guardsmen, your screamers will kill guardsmen which screen tanks, and the enemy artillery will crush your units, your 3+ daemon save will not matter against hundreds of hits with indirect fire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/26 11:30:05
We will talk again when the new AM Codex arrives. Your smites will go into guardsmen, your screamers will kill guardsmen which screen tanks, and the enemy artillery will crush your units, your 3+ daemon save will not matter against hundreds of hits with indirect fire.
Preeeetty sure if I can handle hydra tyranids backed by things like rupture cannons and hive guard, guardsmen won't be an issue. same screening problems (actually worse because the screen regenerates) and they get handled fine.
