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It seems likely that they are real, but they might be only partial information and there is some small potential for changes to some of the document(s) before release.

Flamers at BS4 (part of the rumour) without auto hits is a halving of damage output without buffs.

But, they would now be able to make use of re-roll 1s to hit from DPs/LoCs and the Deluge of Fire (4 WSP for +1 BS) warp storm effect if a pure Daemon army and have a mono Tzeentch detachment (harder now with the AoO detachment although I do want to read the rules in full and see if you can get a free patrol of agents of chaos Daemons with your Daemons).

Into former AoC targets like a basic Intercessor standing outside of cover, previously 6 Flamers were doing 39 hits, 26 wounds, 13 damage through saves.

Now they will do 39 shots, 19.5 hits, 13 wounds, 8.67 damage through saves. Add in the WSP giving BS3 and you get 11.56 wounds. Or add in just rr1s instead and you get 10.11 wounds. Add in both and you get 13.48 wounds taking you above the previous output.

So an improvement vs. former AoC opponents, which means it depends what the previous meta armies were that Daemons struggled against. 4WSP is a hefty price though. And the change to overwatch output is significant, although I found in real games that good players were finding ways to avoid the overwatch.

I hadn't seen the BS 4+ rumour yet. If GW wanted to half the damage output, it would have made more sense to just half the number of shots - even going from D6 + 3 to just D6, or D3 + 2 would do the trick.

Losing the auto-hit just seems like such a departure for what the unit has historically done and makes them vulnerable to -1 penalties. At BS 4+, a -1 penalty reduces their damage output by 1/3rd from their current profile.

I've seen another rumour countering the BS4 thing, so we'll see.

Flamers if they stay at 25 points would still be good at other things:
75 point move 12 banners unit
75 point engage unit
8.33 pts per wound for soaking MWs

It does look like a few non Flamer units are getting points drops (but unclear which) so there might be a new datsheet to spam in there place.

EightFoldPath wrote:
It seems likely that they are real, but they might be only partial information and there is some small potential for changes to some of the document(s) before release.

Flamers at BS4 (part of the rumour) without auto hits is a halving of damage output without buffs.

But, they would now be able to make use of re-roll 1s to hit from DPs/LoCs and the Deluge of Fire (4 WSP for +1 BS) warp storm effect if a pure Daemon army and have a mono Tzeentch detachment (harder now with the AoO detachment although I do want to read the rules in full and see if you can get a free patrol of agents of chaos Daemons with your Daemons).

Into former AoC targets like a basic Intercessor standing outside of cover, previously 6 Flamers were doing 39 hits, 26 wounds, 13 damage through saves.

Now they will do 39 shots, 19.5 hits, 13 wounds, 8.67 damage through saves. Add in the WSP giving BS3 and you get 11.56 wounds. Or add in just rr1s instead and you get 10.11 wounds. Add in both and you get 13.48 wounds taking you above the previous output.

So an improvement vs. former AoC opponents, which means it depends what the previous meta armies were that Daemons struggled against. 4WSP is a hefty price though. And the change to overwatch output is significant, although I found in real games that good players were finding ways to avoid the overwatch.

Check your math because it is literally impossible for 39 BS4+ shots to ever equal much less surpass 39 shots that autohit because, shockingly, if there is even a chance of missing then you are going to average lower than 39 attacks that will always hit. It could be BS2+ rerolling everything and this would still apply.

I did the math and 39 BS3+ shots that are rerolling 1s to hit average 10.11 damage.

I think the argument is that Flamers rolling to hit but ignoring AoC is a net benefit against Marines, given the ease of buffing BS back up to reasonable levels. The assumption is that post-Dataslate Flamers will potentially be dealing more damage than at present because AoC is such a strong buff.
Of course a points revision is also fairly likely for both parties.

You are right, so I didn't bother looking at the basic use case. Against Eldar/Tau/Necrons/Knights/etc the Flamers will be worse for sure. If you need that number, then un-nerfed Flamers going into nerfed power armour would be, 6 Flamers, 39 hits, 26 wounds, 17.33 wounds, which the nerfed Flamers can't catch.

This was comparing:
Autohitting but with AoC into a 3+ save (so 4+ save).
Not autohitting but now they have a 5+ save due to losing AoC.

Power armour factions still tend to make up the majority of players you face in tournaments, so I thought it was interesting to note that damage could be flat or going up against them.

For a quick guess at what is hard to beat for a faction I use https://www.stat-check.com/the-meta and it isn't clear who the top Daemons predators were, so was hoping people would chime in and tell me I was wrong because Nids/Harlequins were smashing Daemons and the output loss on the Flamers was going to make it even worse.

Losing the overwatch is a pretty big deal. It doesn’t matter if your opponent can get around it, the threat of it forces them to commit specific resources or position weirdly to deal with it. You get a ton of mileage out of it even if you never fire it. BS4 is actually a huge double nerf.

artific3r wrote:
Losing the overwatch is a pretty big deal. It doesn’t matter if your opponent can get around it, the threat of it forces them to commit specific resources or position weirdly to deal with it. You get a ton of mileage out of it even if you never fire it. BS4 is actually a huge double nerf.

Bs4 isn't confirmed. One youtuber said but could be misremembering stat line. Not much reason to remember bs when you autohit.

With aoc gone if bs3+ then just rr1 and you perform better than now. Unless points also go up.

Add in +1 bs from warpstorm and def more killy than now though god specicic storms will be harder depending on how ally det rule works.

Either way, losing overwatch is big. People tend to underestimate how powerful it is to be able to control your opponent’s positioning. Flamers will still be solid at BS3/BS4 but will definitely lose a huge chunk of their utility. The movement phase is the most important phase in the game and the ability to influence it in your opponent’s turn cannot really be overstated.

I just want to take a minute to muse about the fact that a unit called Flamers of Tzeentch do not in fact have flamer weapons if these rumors are true.

I really don't think that these changes will kill Flamers, they will still be by far one of the best units in the codex but they will no longer be a meta defining unit like they are now.

I know it has been said many times but it just goes to show how terrible this codex is when you have something like Flamers compared to almost the entire Nurgle line. I am sure that the competitive scene will take the flamer nerf in stride and come out with new strong list that might use other units that are good but not flamer good.

Gee. Just word flaming in weapon doesn't make weapon autohit as other units show with similar naming non-hit.

But sure alternative would be like 50-60 pts per model.

Well luckily i haven't needed flamers for over 70% wr

15ppm flesh hounds sound fun if those rumors are true. PersonalIy I've got a large enough collection that balance changes don't affect me much. Really just looking forward to putting some new models on the table.

Random question:

I couldn't find the secondary objectives in the Daemon codex. I was playing with my friend's Tzeentch, and neither of us could find the secondaries. (This was their second game with the new codex.)

Help! Am I just an idiot?

Hecate wrote:
Random question:

I couldn't find the secondary objectives in the Daemon codex. I was playing with my friend's Tzeentch, and neither of us could find the secondaries. (This was their second game with the new codex.)

Help! Am I just an idiot?

They are in the Nephilim book. Going forward, it looks like the faction secondaries are to be primarily confined to the GT books instead of the dexes.

Hecate wrote:
Random question:

I couldn't find the secondary objectives in the Daemon codex. I was playing with my friend's Tzeentch, and neither of us could find the secondaries. (This was their second game with the new codex.)

Help! Am I just an idiot?

No, your not idiots, GW have decided to remove faction secondaries form the codexes, and centralise them all in the matched play books (ie neliphim, the arks of omen GT pack, etc), in the same location as the "generic" secondary objectives are. This is a change form previous practice of including them in the codexes

I THINK this is a move towards a "Single Source of Truth" type arrangement, wherein they bring all potential selections under a single book which might make it easier to adjust if a given secondary is too powerful or weak, and make it slightly easier as all possible choices are now in the same location, not spread out over 2 or even 3 books (for space marines with a supplement).

Or it may be an effort to force yet more sales of dead tree books......or both. They are not mutually exclusive.


if you dont have access to the Nephilim rules, then wahapedia has then online here

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Check your math because it is literally impossible for 39 BS4+ shots to ever equal much less surpass 39 shots that autohit because, shockingly, if there is even a chance of missing then you are going to average lower than 39 attacks that will always hit. It could be BS2+ rerolling everything and this would still apply.

No, it's not literally impossible for it to ever equal. Just unlikely. Unlikely =/= imopssible. One could roll all successes you know.

Thanks!

ccs wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Check your math because it is literally impossible for 39 BS4+ shots to ever equal much less surpass 39 shots that autohit because, shockingly, if there is even a chance of missing then you are going to average lower than 39 attacks that will always hit. It could be BS2+ rerolling everything and this would still apply.

No, it's not literally impossible for it to ever equal. Just unlikely. Unlikely =/= imopssible. One could roll all successes you know.

not in the context of calculating average damage output

Flamers at BS 3+ and no auto-hit. No points change. I"'ll take it! Nurgle got some points changes that make me happy and horrors are more affordable. I think they did alright with this change. Not amazing, but not terrible.

Does anyone think Nurgle might be playable with the new point drops? Plagebearers at 13 seem decent enough

BS3+ isn't so bad. I already don't really play Flamers so even if they were gutted it wouldn't affect me but glad they weren't overnerfed (unlike Tyranids holy gak).

My monster mash action figures took some nerfs which sucks but oh well.

Yeah, while its a total unflavorful change, i'm fine with the gameplay effect.

It's basically only a meaningful nerf to overwatch, now Tzeentch has a clear weakness that isnt patched up by one unit.

BS3 means we can get them to BS2+ with the warpstorm table too.

With pinks dropping, that could be a lot of shooting on turn 2, but its probably not gonna be anything particularly brutal

The main thing that sucks is that the new detachment rules make getting a specific god's Warpstorm table way harder.

Yeah, you are basically limit to 1/4 of the codex, or say bye bye to god specific warp storm.

Given that Tzeentch doesn't have staying power in close combat and no threatening overwatch, I don't think a pure Tzeentch force will be competitive.

JakeSiren wrote:
Yeah, you are basically limit to 1/4 of the codex, or say bye bye to god specific warp storm.

Given that Tzeentch doesn't have staying power in close combat and no threatening overwatch, I don't think a pure Tzeentch force will be competitive.

100% won't but thats my main god so i'll be playing it anyway. i play exclusively casually now.

I Hadnt thought of the effect of the new detachment on warpstorm, so is it impossible to get any of the god-specific ones now? (unless youre playing mono god)

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Yeah, you are basically limit to 1/4 of the codex, or say bye bye to god specific warp storm.

Given that Tzeentch doesn't have staying power in close combat and no threatening overwatch, I don't think a pure Tzeentch force will be competitive.

100% won't but thats my main god so i'll be playing it anyway. i play exclusively casually now.

I Hadnt thought of the effect of the new detachment on warpstorm, so is it impossible to get any of the god-specific ones now? (unless youre playing mono god)

Basically, as you can't bring a second detachment of a second God due to the wording of the "battle brothers " allies rules, which limits you to the options they specify and are entirely about allies from different books.


We COULD take a knight with us, but not (say) a Khorne patrol alongside a tzeentch main


Obviously this only applies to games played with the arks of Omen GT pack. If your not playing that, then feel free to play multiple patrols as previously

So, I could run Slaanesh and CSM, but not Slaanesh and Tzeentch?

Hecate wrote:
So, I could run Slaanesh and CSM, but not Slaanesh and Tzeentch?

basically, yes. IF your playing under the arks of omen rules, you can't have a patrol of Slannesh and a patrol of Tzeentch. you could still run a "undivided" detachment made of units form both gods, though that would cost you access to the god specific warp storm abilites.

bear in mind, chaos deamons were basically the only codex still able to run multiple subfactions, as everyone else has been barred by the "only one selectable <SUBFACTION> keyword per army" rule that been around for like a year now. We were able to sidestep it as all the daemons had fixed keywords, not selectable, but now we either go pure one god, run the belakor AOR, or go undivided and loose access to godly powers.

*shrug* like i said, this is purely a restriction relating to the Arks of Omen GT rules, it doesnt stop you form playing any other format with multiple monogod patrols if you still want.

Mmm. My group is considering Omen. We're not competitive, but we're slowly ramping things up a bit. Had my first game with points instead of power today.

The only good warp storm I was able to use was Slaanesh-specific. Don't want to lose that. I'm fine with mono Slaanesh, but I might branch out and get some CSM. Basically a tank, defiler, havocs, sorcerer and mandatory 1 squad of marines. It'd give me some shooting AND distraction carnifexes, plus extra psychic with the sorcerer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hell, wouldn't even need the marines if I took a Spearhead.

Hecate wrote:
Mmm. My group is considering Omen. We're not competitive, but we're slowly ramping things up a bit. Had my first game with points instead of power today.

The only good warp storm I was able to use was Slaanesh-specific. Don't want to lose that. I'm fine with mono Slaanesh, but I might branch out and get some CSM. Basically a tank, defiler, havocs, sorcerer and mandatory 1 squad of marines. It'd give me some shooting AND distraction carnifexes, plus extra psychic with the sorcerer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hell, wouldn't even need the marines if I took a Spearhead.

under ARks, your allied detachment MUST be a patrol, unfortunately.

Ah, damn! I'd need marines then, and could only take 2 heavies! :(