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Infiltrators have additional suites of sneaky sneak sneak equipment. And can most certainly jam or be invisible to Auspex. Certainly the low rent Auspex Guard would have.

Quick check up on them tells me they're mostly there to disrupt comms, so that would make things more complicated to get a coordinated assault back on them. Though that jamming could potentially get handled with non-electronic means of long range comms. Or sticking everyone close enough. Or having some dudes with a tech-knack work a fix (such as when Scions were able to counter the effects of scrap-code that was unleashed to make a mess of their Vox-net, there's precedent for it)

Little mention of sneaky stuff, outside of the fact they're Raven Guard

Ah, but Scions are not Guard!

No Tech-Priest to attempt a bypass. Only the limited technological knowledge a Guardsman might possess.

And remember. The Marine only needs a limited operational window at any one time.

Kit wise?

40k Wiki - Phobos Armour wrote: A third variant is Mark X Phobos Armour. This suit's lighter-weight ceramite and streamlined design allow for greater mobility, and its servo-motors are engineered to be completely silent. This variant serves those Primaris Marines who take on the role of Reivers, Incursors and certain Vanguard Space Marines like Infiltrators and Eliminators. These Astartes are ruthless killers, trained in covert operations who operate behind enemy lines as saboteurs, assassins and infiltrators. All who wear the Mark X Phobos variant depend on stealth and secrecy to accomplish their missions.

40k Wiki - Primaris Infiltrators wrote: Aside from their weaponry, the most important tool at the Infiltrators' disposal is the Omni-Scrambler. This portable, back-mounted device intercepts wave signals across a broad spectrum, scrambling frequencies and diverting holo-broadcasts to ensure that enemy communiques never reach their intended recipients.

Messing with your comms, superior vision options, and completely silent.

Yes the completely silent sounds very silly, but completely silent it is

No but some Guardsmen recieve additional training when it comes to their equipment, and it's not stretching it to think they would be able to handle comms disruptions. They don't need a Tech-Priest, that was my point with me bringing up the Scion example, it's possible for regular humans to get training, and given we're talking about a fighting unit that would need reliable comms, it's absolutely possible that there are comms specialists who are trained to deal with those issues.

Or a Tech-Priest. They're part of a regiment anyway and to try and claim they're not integrated is asinine, imo.

Ah, but the quandary here is whether 1 Marine can take 10,000 Guardsmen, not an Imperial Guard regiment with all the trimmings (even then, the answer is still probably Yes, as a Space Marine combat vessel might have but a single Astartes aboard )

Fine, then. I am still saying it's entirely probable that there are enough tech-trained Guardsmen in those 10 000 to counter the jamming.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah, but Scions are not Guard!

No Tech-Priest to attempt a bypass. Only the limited technological knowledge a Guardsman might possess.

No. We've been over this in the thread. Scions are Guard personnel. Enginseers are Guard personnel while they're working with IG regiments, they take orders from Guard officers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah, but the quandary here is whether 1 Marine can take 10,000 Guardsmen, not an Imperial Guard regiment with all the trimmings (even then, the answer is still probably Yes, as a Space Marine combat vessel might have but a single Astartes aboard )

Nope, the answer is still emphatically no.

Gonna vary between Regiments I’d imagine.

Hive World Regiments? Possibly, if only because they recruit heavily from Gangs, and so they’ve quite possibly learnt things and tricks absolutely not part of basic training.

The XVIII Bumholnowherians, raised from an Agri or Feudal World? Not a chance.

There’s also the interesting side debate as to how extensive such training would be, especially considering that Primaris tech is bleeding edge as such things can be measured in Imperium terms. The absolute imbalance in tech is something we shouldn’t gloss over.

For instance, a WW2 or Vietnamese era Veteran almost certainly knows their way round that era’s tech better than most. But, ask them to setup a Firewall for internets, and that’s like asking me to do..well….pretty much anything technological.

Further speculation, but as ever couched in established canon? If the Infiltrator can redirect comms, they can hack them. Power armour as established can record sound and vision, and play it back at least internally. I put it to all that it’s more likely than not the hypothetical Primaris Infiltrator can therefore record vox messages, and replay them on enemy channels to further misdirect enemy forces. Think Predator’s mimicking prey vocalisations, but less rough and more accurate.

I will however draw the line in my speculation there. Whilst I suppose it is possible the Infiltrator could create messages, and mimic a voice ala T800 and T1000, that might be a step too far.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

There’s also the interesting side debate as to how extensive such training would be, especially considering that Primaris tech is bleeding edge as such things can be measured in Imperium terms. The absolute imbalance in tech is something we shouldn’t gloss over.

For instance, a WW2 or Vietnamese era Veteran almost certainly knows their way round that era’s tech better than most. But, ask them to setup a Firewall for internets, and that’s like asking me to do..well….pretty much anything technological.

No, and I wouldn't expect the Guardsmen to be able to use the Infiltrator's kit after they kill him without a lot of fumbling around. They, however, would know how to use their own equipement to handle a variety of issues, and jamming comms is a common thing, so it would be within what they would be qualified as.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Gonna vary between Regiments I’d imagine.

Hive World Regiments? Possibly, if only because they recruit heavily from Gangs, and so they’ve quite possibly learnt things and tricks absolutely not part of basic training.

The XVIII Bumholnowherians, raised from an Agri or Feudal World? Not a chance.

They could learn on transit. Space travel can take quite a bit, and it's not a stretch to assume they would recieve more specialised training there, it's not like they'd just going to twirl their thumbs in space.

I’m still not persuaded, because of how compartmentalised the Imperial War Machine is by design. Tech Priest Enginseers are there for the calibration and maintenance. Most squads have by all accounts pretty basic Vox equipment.

Some just have the Vox Operator in Platoon Command. Others have earbuds for every trooper.

Given the rather short life expectancy of the average Guardsman, I just don’t think it’s worth the specialised training, leaving instead such things to the Cogboys.

The jamming needn’t be long term either. Just long enough to put the willies up the entire Guard force as the Vox Network is jammed. Is it local? Is it widespread? Who can tell when you personally are jammed. In fact thinking more about it, I don’t think it’s in the Marine’s interest to jam for a long time. Just time enough for them to complete their strike and pull out again (and running at 25-30mph they can be long gone pretty quickly).

Going for the proper psychological edge? Each blackout, widespread or localised needn’t be followed up with an attack at all. Keep them wondering, keep them on edge. Keep them from sleep. Erode, erode, erode.

Continuing my speculation? Just broadcasting false reports after a massacre can further increase that paranoia. The Marine becomes a Ghost. You’ve no reliable way to track his movements or really predict where he’ll strike next.

Send out a few bogus orders, but don’t attack all of them. Being patched in, you can just listen in for whatever steps they try to increase Vox security and order integrity. Send maybe half a dozen platoons on wild goose chases. Wipe out one or two.

It gets ever more effective if there’s actual artillery in play…after all, the Guard rarely think anything of calling strikes into areas their troops are active.

It wouldn’t be long at all before paranoia and second guessing kicks in.

There's a lot more to the Guard than just fighting folks that isn't often mentioned in books and almostn ever on the TT.

Guardsmen'S life expectancy is all over the place, if you have long span of time doing nothing (ship transit), training them more and more is an excellent use of that time.

Jamming is localised around the Marine, at least from what I heard about jammers. He'd have to be in the central command of the IG to jam the entire network, and even then, jammers have their limits, they might make a mess of a portable Vox caster, but the whole communication center point of the IG should be able to transmit.

As for erosion, I think the Marine's luck would run out much sooner than the capacity of the IG to rotate their 10 000 troops. They don't need to spread out in little isolated packs, and can occupy a relatively small area that makes isolation difficult for a single Marine. They have a single enemy to handle, why are they sending piecemeal forces to get killed for no gains? It makes no sense. Holding ground, with overlapping lanes of fire from platoons supporting eachother would be much successful (And hey, it's why we do it IRL)

How many lasgun shots should it take to kill a Marine?

In-game, it varies from 36 (hitting on 4+, saving on a 3+) to 108 (hitting on a 5+, saving on a 2+, both thanks to cover).
The game is not the fluff-but they’re not totally unrelated either.

If each guardsman shoots at the Marine ONCE, the Marine would need both massively favorable terrain and to be 100X better than they are on the tabletop in the fluff.
Do you think that Marines are 1% of what they are, in game as compared to in lore?

What weapon carried by a single marine would be the most devastating by numbers? Missile Launcher? Grav Cannon? Plasma Cannon?

Or are we still under the same goal posts that it's just one neophyte with a bolt Pistol vs 10000 Sly Marbos?

Because a Single Marine with a Heavy Bolter and a full pack pack might take down around 1000 before going down, possibly twice that to morale shock when people start literally exploding.

It's 20mm ammo, the size of it means the Marine is lucky to carry about 200 rounds of it. You're also assuming he's going to be 100% accurate with a Heavy Bolter, and that the Marine can shoot without the Guard being unable to do anything. He's alone, all the need is a lascannon out of sight to zap the Marine to death.

Still the assumption it’s a straight up shoot out. Which…it wouldn’t be.

The Marine is in no rush. He can absolutely take his time.

If the Guard bunch up? Stalk and await a gap.

If they spread out? Pick them off piecemeal.

Hence why I’m favouring a Primaris Infiltrator, as canonically they’re the most likely to be able monitor and make use of the Guard’s Vox network to plan assaults. He’s just one dude. The Guard have no inherent way to track him or locate him beyond tried and tested “just keep looking”. They can’t hack his comms, because he’s no-one to communicate with, except when he’s hijacking their own signal.

Even if they can triangulate a position during such periods of access? They’ve got to get there first, and in sufficient numbers the lone Marine doesn’t just roflstomp the scouts sent out. Which given the specific equipment in play is a lot easier than it sounds.

Given an Infiltrator’s Phobos armour is calibrated to be completely silent? You’ll need to physically spot him - and remember, Guard don’t have radar or motion trackers as standard equipment. Some regiments may do, but then that regiment needs to be specified, just as I’ve specified a Raven Guard Infiltrator for Chapter preferences and uncanny knack’s.

And I genuinely don’t know what would be more terrifying. Seeing an Astartes slaughtering his way through your mates whilst bellowing warcries amplified to deafening volume - or in complete silence beyond the sickening rending of flesh and crunching of bone amongst the shrieks of his victims. I mean, the Marine can absolutely do both.

As for Heavy Bolters? There’s precious little to stop the Marine using whatever heavy weapons the Guard have with them. And even using them against the Marine relies solely on him attacking an established position from a predicted approach…because it takes time to set them up. Considering the combination of speed, strength and skill of a Marine, combats needn’t be drawn out.

There’s a very cool bit in a novel, and I’m pretty sure it’s Nightbringer. Uriel Ventriss, the Ultramarine protagonist, is assaulting a renegade bunker, which has a heavy Bolter emplaced. He gets up to the bunker, and listens for the tell tale sound of it being reloaded. Soon as that’s done, up he pops, grabs it, wrenches it from its mountings, and promptly turns it on the bunker’s occupants to devastating effect.

Add in the Marine isn’t daft, and will always have the element of surprise (see being able to monitor as well as disrupt Vox Network and his suite of sensors), any heavy weapons already setup are going to be prime targets, as they’re the biggest threat to the Marine. Take his time, line up his shot and….that’s a dead gunner, possibly dead gun crew as a whole. Then he’s in amongst the rest before anyone can re-crew it, even if all the Guard have the training to appease the Heavy Weapon’s machine spirit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
. . .Take his time, line up his shot and….that’s a dead gunner, possibly dead gun crew as a whole. Then he’s in amongst the rest before anyone can re-crew it, even if all the Guard have the training to appease the Heavy Weapon’s machine spirit.

Oh the Marine is just teleporting now, from his sniper position to the heavy weapon, and totally not having to make his way there under fire from the 20 Guardsmen nearby, or any other heavy weapons set up in the vicinity. Sure, fine.

And you're ignoring all the othe heavy weapon emplacement providing mutual support? Or is he able to snipe all those without a problem and never being caught as the Guardsmen just stand there being shot at. Just rushing ahead to pick up the Heavy weapon itself would be a huge risk in and off itself, once he's out of ammunition.

The Marines isn't daft, neither are the Guardsmen. They're not spread out in 10 men squads over 100 KM square waiting to be assassinated one by one. They can absolutely cover all areas of approach with trenches and fortified emplacements, there's 10 000 of them, they have no reasons to ever spread out, that's their advantage.

Uriel managed this trick because there was now mutual cover with that bunker, no multiple overlapping fields of fire, where were the other bunkers? Destroyed? Inexistent, there was just a random bunker? If it's the former, who destroyed them. Or suppressed the men inside? If it's the latter, why would you put a random, isolated fortification just there, you're begging for what you just described to happen.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I mean…consider what a Marine can do to a human body. Snapping necks is the work of a split second. Once dead, if you’ve time? Start wrenching off limbs. Turn a killing into a butchering. Leave very visual reminders of just what it is they’re trying to kill. Break that nerve. Terrify them. Make them realise that a Demi-God, and one the evidence shows to be invulnerable is stalking them.

Yeah, well, a tiger can do all that damage too. People have been shooting tigers without difficulty for a long time. Or bears. Or whatever. People like guns for a reason.

People with spears hunted friggin mammoths. Give people a weapon and train them how to use it, and they'll use it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hence why I’m favouring a Primaris Infiltrator, as canonically they’re the most likely to be able monitor and make use of the Guard’s Vox network to plan assaults. He’s just one dude. The Guard have no inherent way to track him or locate him beyond tried and tested “just keep looking”. They can’t hack his comms, because he’s no-one to communicate with, except when he’s hijacking their own signal.

WTF is a Valkyrie for 500, Alex.

They find him with aircraft and then radio his position, artillery blows him to bits. And yes, the Imperial guard will have artillery.

Also, Astartes aren't typically tactical geniuses at asymmetrical warfare. "Camouflage is the color of fear" and all that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As for Heavy Bolters? There’s precious little to stop the Marine using whatever heavy weapons the Guard have with them.

Yes there is. The fingers of his gauntlets literally don't fit inside the trigger guards.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Add in the Marine isn’t daft, and will always have the element of surprise (see being able to monitor as well as disrupt Vox Network and his suite of sensors), any heavy weapons already setup are going to be prime targets, as they’re the biggest threat to the Marine. Take his time, line up his shot and….that’s a dead gunner, possibly dead gun crew as a whole. Then he’s in amongst the rest before anyone can re-crew it, even if all the Guard have the training to appease the Heavy Weapon’s machine spirit.

Except he hasn't properly performed the ritual of machine appeasement, etc. Most members of the Imperium (Astartes included) are absolutely pants-on-head slowed when it comes to technology.

There's no reason to suspect the Astartes will always have the element of surprise. When you've got 10k guard, eventually one of them will outwit him or get the drop on him. Your ideas are consistently idiotic and break the setting in fundamental ways.

I mean, the assumption that the Marine is a tactical near-genius is ok. But the assumption that the Guard aren't remotely bare-minimum competent is not.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Still the assumption it’s a straight up shoot out. Which…it wouldn’t be.

The Marine is in no rush. He can absolutely take his time.

If the Guard bunch up? Stalk and await a gap.

If they spread out? Pick them off piecemeal.

Hence why I’m favouring a Primaris Infiltrator, as canonically they’re the most likely to be able monitor and make use of the Guard’s Vox network to plan assaults. He’s just one dude. The Guard have no inherent way to track him or locate him beyond tried and tested “just keep looking”. They can’t hack his comms, because he’s no-one to communicate with, except when he’s hijacking their own signal.

Even if they can triangulate a position during such periods of access? They’ve got to get there first, and in sufficient numbers the lone Marine doesn’t just roflstomp the scouts sent out. Which given the specific equipment in play is a lot easier than it sounds.

Given an Infiltrator’s Phobos armour is calibrated to be completely silent? You’ll need to physically spot him - and remember, Guard don’t have radar or motion trackers as standard equipment. Some regiments may do, but then that regiment needs to be specified, just as I’ve specified a Raven Guard Infiltrator for Chapter preferences and uncanny knack’s.

And I genuinely don’t know what would be more terrifying. Seeing an Astartes slaughtering his way through your mates whilst bellowing warcries amplified to deafening volume - or in complete silence beyond the sickening rending of flesh and crunching of bone amongst the shrieks of his victims. I mean, the Marine can absolutely do both.

As for Heavy Bolters? There’s precious little to stop the Marine using whatever heavy weapons the Guard have with them. And even using them against the Marine relies solely on him attacking an established position from a predicted approach…because it takes time to set them up. Considering the combination of speed, strength and skill of a Marine, combats needn’t be drawn out.

There’s a very cool bit in a novel, and I’m pretty sure it’s Nightbringer. Uriel Ventriss, the Ultramarine protagonist, is assaulting a renegade bunker, which has a heavy Bolter emplaced. He gets up to the bunker, and listens for the tell tale sound of it being reloaded. Soon as that’s done, up he pops, grabs it, wrenches it from its mountings, and promptly turns it on the bunker’s occupants to devastating effect.

Add in the Marine isn’t daft, and will always have the element of surprise (see being able to monitor as well as disrupt Vox Network and his suite of sensors), any heavy weapons already setup are going to be prime targets, as they’re the biggest threat to the Marine. Take his time, line up his shot and….that’s a dead gunner, possibly dead gun crew as a whole. Then he’s in amongst the rest before anyone can re-crew it, even if all the Guard have the training to appease the Heavy Weapon’s machine spirit.

No-the assumption I made was that, on average, each Guardsman gets ONE shot at the Marine.

Because, to refer back to the gameplay again, a squad of 10 Guardsmen versus one Intercessor will usually be ending in the favor of the Guard.
Two squads? That Intercessor is toast.
Now, I do acknowledge that gameplay is abstracted-but is it abstracted by a factor of 1,000?

I'd argue that the game isn't even abstracted in that regard. 10 Guardsmen gunnung down a Space Marine in the open is ok by me.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'd argue that the game isn't even abstracted in that regard. 10 Guardsmen gunnung down a Space Marine in the open is ok by me.

It should be noted that my assumptions were a squad without any special weapons.

Add in a Missile Launcher and Grenade Launcher, and, well... Things go even worse for the Marine.

So, I feel like this is why we don't use tabletop rules in fluff discussions. Because it's not representative of the actual lore. How many Primaris captains are needed to kill a single Custodian Captain? By fluff standards, likely at least 4+. By table standards, a single BA Captain with a Relic blade can kill one. Table top is not accurate.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Messing with your comms, superior vision options, and completely silent.

Yes the completely silent sounds very silly, but completely silent it is

See, you have unserious cartoon-brain (except for those posts where you choose to describe the damage marines can do to human bodies with their bare hands, when you exchange it for a barely-contained, slavering borderline-eroticism... thanks, by the way, for letting me know that masochistic ceramite bunnies are one of the obscure hazards that need to be navigated in the 40K fandom )

Do you think that a marine wearing Phobos armour, who falls down a 300 metre shaft filled with panes of glass spaced 10 metres apart, remains "completely silent?"

"Complete silence" covers the operation of the armour, not its interaction with the physical environment... unless you can locate an explicit description of the muffling fields it throws out to conceal environmental noise.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I mean…consider what a Marine can do to a human body. Snapping necks is the work of a split second. Once dead, if you’ve time? Start wrenching off limbs. Turn a killing into a butchering. Leave very visual reminders of just what it is they’re trying to kill. Break that nerve. Terrify them. Make them realise that a Demi-God, and one the evidence shows to be invulnerable is stalking them.

Yeah, well, a tiger can do all that damage too. People have been shooting tigers without difficulty for a long time. Or bears. Or whatever. People like guns for a reason.

People with spears hunted friggin mammoths. Give people a weapon and train them how to use it, and they'll use it.

Okay but Tigers and Mammoths don't wear fictional power armor or use range weapons themselves.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I feel like this is why we don't use tabletop rules in fluff discussions. Because it's not representative of the actual lore. How many Primaris captains are needed to kill a single Custodian Captain? By fluff standards, likely at least 4+.

No. I reject your fluff standards. You haven't established any of that.

The tabletop rules are what the fluff is derived from, more often than not. We can say that if the fluff doesn't allow for 10,000 guardsmen to defeat one marine, the fluff is in the wrong, not the rules, and anyone who supports the idea that a marine can beat 10,000 guardsmen has a screw loose and shouldn't be taken seriously. People who get too into "my chosen faction can beat yours in this fictional IP" are oftentimes mentally deranged, borderline, etc, and especially in 40k's case, they very frequently lie about the background material.

Custodians get cacked all the time. One World Eater on a whole bunch of Chaos juice punched right through one's armor.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I feel like this is why we don't use tabletop rules in fluff discussions. Because it's not representative of the actual lore. How many Primaris captains are needed to kill a single Custodian Captain? By fluff standards, likely at least 4+. By table standards, a single BA Captain with a Relic blade can kill one. Table top is not accurate.

Unless you want to say the tabletop is COMPLETELY unmoored from the fluff, it's useful.

A Primaris Captain can't even take Relic Blades (unless you mean an ACTUAL Relic, and not the wargear called Relic Blade) so we're looking at an MC Power Sword or a Power Fist.
With 5 attacks (6 on the charge), hitting on a 2+/3+, wounding on a 4+/3+ (Sword/Fist), saving on a 4+, and doing 2 damage a pop... A single Captain does one and a fourth failed Sword saves, or one and a third with the Fist. On the first round of combat only-drops on later rounds.
Since you need four failed saves to kill a Shield-Captain, you'd need three Primaris Captains armed with Fists to kill one in a single round. Slightly less than your off-the-cuff estimate... But not by much.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I mean…consider what a Marine can do to a human body. Snapping necks is the work of a split second. Once dead, if you’ve time? Start wrenching off limbs. Turn a killing into a butchering. Leave very visual reminders of just what it is they’re trying to kill. Break that nerve. Terrify them. Make them realise that a Demi-God, and one the evidence shows to be invulnerable is stalking them.

Yeah, well, a tiger can do all that damage too. People have been shooting tigers without difficulty for a long time. Or bears. Or whatever. People like guns for a reason.

Guardsmen will shoot at Tyranid Warriors, who are bigger and faster and stronger and more dangerous than a Marine. They'll shoot a fuggin Marine.

People with spears hunted friggin mammoths. Give people a weapon and train them how to use it, and they'll use it.

Okay but Tigers and Mammoths don't wear fictional power armor or use range weapons themselves.

That's true, but armed individuals will also happily shoot at armed and armored cars too. People will shoot at all sorts of threatening targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'd argue that the game isn't even abstracted in that regard. 10 Guardsmen gunnung down a Space Marine in the open is ok by me.

It should be noted that my assumptions were a squad without any special weapons.

Add in a Missile Launcher and Grenade Launcher, and, well... Things go even worse for the Marine.

Right. But I think 10 Guardsmen gunning down a Marine in the open with just lasguns is fine. That's a lot of firepower.

 JNAProductions wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I feel like this is why we don't use tabletop rules in fluff discussions. Because it's not representative of the actual lore. How many Primaris captains are needed to kill a single Custodian Captain? By fluff standards, likely at least 4+. By table standards, a single BA Captain with a Relic blade can kill one. Table top is not accurate.

Unless you want to say the tabletop is COMPLETELY unmoored from the fluff, it's useful.

A Primaris Captain can't even take Relic Blades (unless you mean an ACTUAL Relic, and not the wargear called Relic Blade) so we're looking at an MC Power Sword or a Power Fist.
With 5 attacks (6 on the charge), hitting on a 2+/3+, wounding on a 4+/3+ (Sword/Fist), saving on a 4+, and doing 2 damage a pop... A single Captain does one and a fourth failed Sword saves, or one and a third with the Fist. On the first round of combat only-drops on later rounds.
Since you need four failed saves to kill a Shield-Captain, you'd need three Primaris Captains armed with Fists to kill one in a single round. Slightly less than your off-the-cuff estimate... But not by much.

So I thought BA captains could take some "Relic blade" that is a 3 damage power sword.

Plus they get +1 to wound, and then +1 to hit, and then they have the charge bonuses, point is; they CAN easily take down a Custodian Captain, and on the table top, it's an even trade points wise. Both are around 120-150 if you count the relic.

If we were to go by the books, Valarian takes down silly numbers of Primaris Minotaurs without even taking a wound.

Table top does not account for Plot Armor, which is essentially a 1+1++1+++.

Tabletop cannot reflect fluff, nor vice versa. Else the game would be a bunch of crap. As would the books. Cain would EASILY lose most of his fights, Gaunt's mob would have been dead after the first book, and the Blood Angels would have lost in Dev of Baal.