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 kodos wrote:

Billicus wrote:
What part of Legion doesn't make sense? Have you seen the movies? There's no shortage of large battle scenes with the heroes mixed in.

and what have the "heroes" done during that battles?
even in clone wars the "heroes" focus on commando and "side" projects rather than doing the battle itself and when people are asking to put more heroes into that game and make those stronger so that the focus shifts to Luke fighting Vader rather than troopers fighting each other

if someone wants a game that is all about Luke fighting Vader, Shatterpoint is the better place (no need for a Platoon level game if you want "Herohammer")

Legion battles really aren't that large of scale. They're much closer to Endor than Hoth for example. I've got a list of the GCW main 6 and about 16 random grunts that feels pretty good outside of two main issues:

- It's illegal. The game's FOC doesn't allow for that many heroes.
- It's terrible. Heroes are so tied to their command cards that the system doesn't at all reward running more than 2.

I think that's always been Legion's big limitation. It depends on new NPCs for content in a franchise that is mostly driven by characters. I don't think the issue is that the battles are too big for heroes though, I just think the implementation of heroes into the system is too limited to release very many of them without being redundant. I've got a lot of cool Legion hero models, but realistically I have no incentive to play the vast majority of them.

 Azazelx wrote:
I stopped buying (and following) X-Wing when FFG Said "please give us hundreds of dollars for new cardboard if you want to keep using your thousands of dollars of toys in the new version of our game". I still play 1st ed with my group and it works fine for us. If you play competitively, or pick up games in stores or tournaments, it's clearly unfortunate if AMG is changing the game again and I'd agree that it likely sucks.

I bought most of the stuff for Armada, and I'm overall happy with the 4 big factions. I prefer a SW game to feel more or less film-complete as opposed to having it be added to like 40k's endless additions of new things thar were really there all along - honest!

It's not just that they changed X-Wing, it's the why and how. AMG came in with pretty much no experience and immediately started making changes. They had a really condescending stream (probably more, but I didn't watch them) where they lectured the community on how we're all having fun the wrong way and they're going to make us play the game AMG wants to play. AMG is salty about having their hero pilot blocked, like a day one newbie? Unlike most newbies AMG owns the game so instead of learning how strategy works they can just nerf the thing that beat them and remove blocking from the game. Maneuver planning is too dependent on predicting collisions and ship placement? Randomly decide which ship moves first after dials are set. People are spending too much time maneuvering for an advantage and not going directly into the center of the table to brawl? Introduce a turn limit and objectives that punish you for not going straight to the brawl. People are using generics instead of AMG's favorite characters? Introduce a new point system where generic ships cost more than superior named pilots so they're de facto banned. Don't like any of AMG's changes? You're just a bitter loser who doesn't understand how fun works, clinging to your WAAC TFG game and afraid the fun players might beat you.

As for Armada, I'd be content with it being complete if they finished the game. Armada is 90% of a good game but it really needs a proper update to bring everything up to the same level. There are too many older ships that don't get to use newer mechanics that didn't exist when the original cards were printed and too many workaround upgrades that try to awkwardly add some of those new mechanics at the cost of upgrade slots. But we'll never see that comprehensive update because AMG didn't want anything that isn't a MCP clone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
and Vader teaming up with Luke is your big "Lore" problem with this scenario?
not Vader fighting a younger himself?

Um, what? I literally mentioned Vader fighting against Anakin in that example.

But yes, opposing character mismatches is less of a problem than allied character mismatches. There's a limit to what you as a game designer can do if you have a multi-era game, and as much as I hate the prequel content I know people want to see those characters. You can't control what the other player brings but you can prevent players from bringing anti-thematic combinations in their own forces. AMG simply chooses not to, because superheroes teaming up in unlikely combinations is a comic book standard.

and Vader teaming up with Luke is in the movies

so the point is playing something that has been canon is killing the lore but if opponents want to fight mirror matches it is not


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

I think that's always been Legion's big limitation. It depends on new NPCs for content in a franchise that is mostly driven by characters. I don't think the issue is that the battles are too big for heroes though, I just think the implementation of heroes into the system is too limited to release very many of them without being redundant. I've got a lot of cool Legion hero models, but realistically I have no incentive to play the vast majority of them.

agree
for me, I would really like to play a faction with NPC only and just use no named "heroes"

 kodos wrote:

for me, I would really like to play a faction with NPC only and just use no named "heroes"

You can pretty easily do this with an faction now. Each of them have a generic officer than can serve as commander.

I knew that there are Commanders, just looked it up there are now also generic operatives

All of the star wars games, like any licensed game, run into the same brick wall: running out of canon material. It's just not a huge surprise that X-wing, armada, and Legion all started to lose stem when the most iconic stuff was already made.

In a way, this game is response to that, in that the one thing Star Wars has in absolute spades are iconic heroes and villains. The Clone wars era has a very deep bench of characters, even if you only stick with the movies. tack on the shows, and this has more material than Armada or even x-wing.

 Polonius wrote:
All of the star wars games, like any licensed game, run into the same brick wall: running out of canon material. It's just not a huge surprise that X-wing, armada, and Legion all started to lose stem when the most iconic stuff was already made.

In a way, this game is response to that, in that the one thing Star Wars has in absolute spades are iconic heroes and villains. The Clone wars era has a very deep bench of characters, even if you only stick with the movies. tack on the shows, and this has more material than Armada or even x-wing.

This is a really good point and I'm excited to see what Shatterpoint can bring to the table in the future. I know it's the longest of long shots (but not so long that it's impossible) but I'd love to get some of the Muunilist 10 even if that series is no longer "canon".

There's more good coming out of this than bad. I do feel for true X-Wing and Armada fans (not the saber rattlers) because the content being dripped out for them is very low or non-existent for Armada, but I don't blame AMG for that, I blame Asmodee.

 rybackstun wrote:
There's more good coming out of this than bad. I do feel for true X-Wing and Armada fans (not the saber rattlers) because the content being dripped out for them is very low or non-existent for Armada, but I don't blame AMG for that, I blame Asmodee.

Why don't you blame AMG for their decisions? If AMG had done literally nothing with X-Wing it would be in a far better place than it is now, the problems since AMG took ownership of it have been entirely the result of AMG's arrogance in deciding that everyone else was having fun the wrong way and they were going to jump right in and start turning it into the game they wanted to play.

X-Wing's big mistake was milking the GCW dry before doing a big shake up. They really needed to start introducing either Clone Wars factions to stretch the content or do a 2nd edition a lot earlier. The second edition changes for my money were excellent, but by that point they were squeezing the last drops of wooden Wookie ship blood out of the stone and had absolutely no new product available for people wanting to keep playing their existing factions.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

It's not just that they changed X-Wing, it's the why and how. AMG came in with pretty much no experience and immediately started making changes.

I'm not going to argue with you either way on X-Wing. As I mentioned, I stopped buying their new shiz in the FFG days based on the prices for the 2.0 upgrade kits. That was some rather expensive printed cardboard. Hopefully the game turns into something you can enjoy again. Otherwise, I guess you might be in the same boat (or a parallel boat) to ehere I am - if you have a group who doesn't feel a need to keep up with the latest rules and meta like 40k players, keep playing the edition you enjoy. I know that rando pickups or tournaments, etc aren't something that are an option for me with my extensive collection of 1.0 fleets.

On the card upgrade kit point, I will give AMG credit for releasing their MCP card changes as downloadable/printable PDFs.

As for Armada, I'd be content with it being complete if they finished the game. Armada is 90% of a good game but it really needs a proper update to bring everything up to the same level. There are too many older ships that don't get to use newer mechanics that didn't exist when the original cards were printed and too many workaround upgrades that try to awkwardly add some of those new mechanics at the cost of upgrade slots. But we'll never see that comprehensive update because AMG didn't want anything that isn't a MCP clone.

I don't think getting that last 10% would be a bad thing. Though, I'd tend to put that blame more on Asmodee rather than AMG.

Actually, you've got me thinking there - I've been in a work position where I've had my own work to do and other people's work just dumped on me too many times to hate others for it. This just happened again this Monday when someone resigned and one of my other colleagues and I got the "well, you have to split her work now on top of your own workload" - all while keeping the same timelines and deadlines. work hours and renumeration. I've been working on my own stuff since last August and this new stuff since Monday (well, responsible for it, - I haven't done much besides read the dox in my "spare" time). Where do you think more of my deep knowledge, interest, passion, and effort already is/will go to? Where do you think the higher quality output will be over the next few months?

...and to bring it back to X-Wing and Armada under AMG - what if I decided to get invested in my new extra workload and put more effort and care into it since it's apparently my job now to run the thing, and I go and fix what I percieve are flaws in it and start to turn it into something that I and my other colleagues are happy with? Otherwise I could choose to put minimum effort into it and just concentrate on my own stuff - not really changing anything since I don't have a deep understanding of it, but not gettign into it and improving it a lot since I don't have a deep understanding, and besides, I already have my own job to do aside from someone else's job...

Of course, my organisation could always hire a new person - in that case, you have a situation where they either choose to do very little, or get invested in it and (probably) change it for the "better". Maybe the new hire wants to "put their mark on it" (because that mentality is totally a very real thing in organisations).

Point all being, and to misquite the BBC's famous phrase - "Other perspectives also exist"

But yes, opposing character mismatches is less of a problem than allied character mismatches. There's a limit to what you as a game designer can do if you have a multi-era game, and as much as I hate the prequel content I know people want to see those characters. You can't control what the other player brings but you can prevent players from bringing anti-thematic combinations in their own forces. AMG simply chooses not to, because superheroes teaming up in unlikely combinations is a comic book standard.

I'd suggest that if you wanted to play Shatterpoint (though it appears you have no interest) then you'd be best discussing thematic combinations & limitations with your gaming group and see what consensus you come to. I mean, you can talk about it here and be as angry as you like, but aside from the entertainment and venting provided by this discourse, you're not accomlishing anything else, and certainly not making a change to a game that's about to be released.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 rybackstun wrote:
There's more good coming out of this than bad. I do feel for true X-Wing and Armada fans (not the saber rattlers) because the content being dripped out for them is very low or non-existent for Armada, but I don't blame AMG for that, I blame Asmodee.

Why don't you blame AMG for their decisions? If AMG had done literally nothing with X-Wing it would be in a far better place than it is now, the problems since AMG took ownership of it have been entirely the result of AMG's arrogance in deciding that everyone else was having fun the wrong way and they were going to jump right in and start turning it into the game they wanted to play.

From everything that I've read and seen, it seems like AMG had no real interest in picking up the 3 games they were given by Asmodee as part of Asmodee trying to prep FFG for a sale or something else leading to them dumping FFG. AMG was working on Shatterpoint before they were tasked with working on FFG's Star Wars games and there may have been rules changes already set to go for X-Wing before AMG were handed the keys.

Is it possible that AMG made the game "worse" as you decree? Yes it is possible. However no one REALLY knows (except those on the inside) what the situation with the FFG stuff was during this period of time.

You seem to really not like AMG, and that's perfectly fine, but you are right on the boarder of unhealthy obsession/vendetta against a company that's just making games.

Even IF AMG tuned the game this way completely of their own volition, you have this lovely opportunity to build a community that plays the game house-ruled to the EXACT specifications that you so desperately desire, and that's a wonderful situation to be in. YOU have the control and can safely ignore AMG as a whole. The ball is clearly in your court and it would probably serve everyone better if you just focused on that and left the forums alone and safe from Anti-AMG sentiment.

 rybackstun wrote:
The ball is clearly in your court and it would probably serve everyone better if you just focused on that and left the forums alone and safe from Anti-AMG sentiment.

This is not a pro-AMG echo chamber and "keep the forums safe from anti-AMG sentiment" is not even close to something I care about. If AMG posts nonsense I will continue to criticize them for it.

However no one REALLY knows (except those on the inside) what the situation with the FFG stuff was during this period of time.

We know because AMG made public statements that the changes were their own work, defended those changes, and explained how they were necessary because we were all having fun the wrong way.

As much as I empathise with someone who loved a game losing support for their game, arguing that Shatterpoint is any more lore-shatteringly nonsensical than any of the FFG era SW games seems incorrect.

It was in the FFG era that we got cross-era games (and original-sequel mixing within one side [though that is reflective of Disney's indecision about what to do with the sequels]) in X-Wing, the FFG era that we got Legion, which is both way more special character oriented than a platoon+ game should have been and allowed cross-era games, the FFG era in which Armada - less Armada and more Flotilla - got cross-era games also replete with named characters and ships.

Now, it obviously sells for Star Wars, both in the Lucas age and the Disney age, to plaster the family drama of the skywalker-palpatine clans onto every piece of merch (consider the horror when Last Jedi suggested that MAYBE someone outside these Very Special Magic People could do important things), so my preferences are clearly in the minority.

With all that being said, the answer clearly seems to be to talk to my friends and play something else. Obviously that's not the same as the evidently thriving XW1E scene, and it seems SWL has that too, but I would have thought Armada players probably knew how to talk to regular opponents rather than relying on anonymous pickup games, given the relative paucity of Armada players (in my experience, of course - there's probably areas where it was also hopping).

The long and the short of it is that Shatterpoint isn't particularly interesting to me, and I was hoping we'd see more generic commanders for Legion, but - given Legion ALREADY varied in its scale - some squinting will probably mean I pick up a few Shatterpoint models to go with my Legion models that I'll use in a whole variety miniature agnostic scifi games.

AMG doesn't, it seems to me, warrant any particular hostility over Asmodee's investors more generally, nor does it deserve any particular defence either - of course a world in which FFG continued to keep its designers and produce stuff for those three games would have been cool for people who liked those games as they were, but there were only ever going to be two alternatives: either the games would be supported, or not. If one feels the games as they are now are so different from the FFG era games that they're not supported, it's no different than the world in which they just ceased to exist.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 rybackstun wrote:
There's more good coming out of this than bad. I do feel for true X-Wing and Armada fans (not the saber rattlers) because the content being dripped out for them is very low or non-existent for Armada, but I don't blame AMG for that, I blame Asmodee.

Why don't you blame AMG for their decisions? If AMG had done literally nothing with X-Wing it would be in a far better place than it is now, the problems since AMG took ownership of it have been entirely the result of AMG's arrogance in deciding that everyone else was having fun the wrong way and they were going to jump right in and start turning it into the game they wanted to play.

How long have you been in the miniatures game hobby?

Editions of games change. Constantly. That churn is how companies can keep existing players engaged and provide a leveling mechanism for new players to jump into a game.

Here's a quick summary of edition changes across a few games. This is all normal. Lots of people hate the changes between editions and others love it and others don't care. This is nothing new and this is always the path forward for miniatures games. New editions or death. (except Battletech)

 bbb wrote:
How long have you been in the miniatures game hobby?

Long enough to understand the difference between "all edition changes are bad" and "this particular edition change was bad". So, probably longer than you.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 bbb wrote:
How long have you been in the miniatures game hobby?

Long enough to understand the difference between "all edition changes are bad" and "this particular edition change was bad". So, probably longer than you.

Ah! A fellow 30+ years deep in the hobby grognard! Well, all the edition changes do take their toll. But at least we always have the option to play the version of the rules that were the best. (Based on objective fact, which always lines up with our opinions. What are the odds!?)


Hey, back to Shatterpoint. Anyone doing the pre-order at your local store? I'm tempted to, but I'm still paying off some purchases I made at the end of the year. So many games, so little money.

 bbb wrote:

Hey, back to Shatterpoint. Anyone doing the pre-order at your local store? I'm tempted to, but I'm still paying off some purchases I made at the end of the year. So many games, so little money.

I'm very much considering the "all-in bundle", though I'm also looking at that Batman KS that adds solo and co-op play and possibly a PS5, so all that crap adds up - especially in a compressed timeframe...

Unless something happens between now and then, I will be trying to pick up a copy for myself and a copy for group play.
Then lots of terrain as well to add to my sci fi table.

 Geifer wrote:
It might also help to balance out the available darksiders. We're getting Maul, Dooku and and Ventress right off the bat. You can throw in Sidious and you're done. Double up with apprentice Maul, maybe bounty hunter Ventress, and you're out of force wielders, really.

There's also Savage Opress and the Nightsisters in general if we're looking for more Dark-Sidey affiliated force users in the CW era. Pong Krell maybe? I think with the Clone Wars period, even if they're greatly outnumbered in terms of force users, the Separatists and co. do have a much wider range of Bounty Hunters which could be seen as a soft counter to Jedi. Plus Grevious who's arguably a hard counter to Jedi, maybe Pre-Visla with the Darksaber.

They might be comparatively limited on force users but there's plenty of variety and potentially powerful characters elsewhere.

I forgot about Savage. Oops. The odd bounty hunter hero is probably a good call, but I'm not sure in general how power levels will be determined. I can easily see Cad Bane and Pre Viszla being hero level, and we know for sure about Griebous. It's just that a badass like Bo-Katan getting the sidekick slot suggests to me that heroic non-force users will have a hard time earning a top spot. I'm happy to be proven wrong, of course, but for the time being it looks like it's Force users or bust with only a select few that also wield light sabers or have matching gizmos mingling in.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

It's not just that they changed X-Wing, it's the why and how. AMG came in with pretty much no experience and immediately started making changes. They had a really condescending stream (probably more, but I didn't watch them) where they lectured the community on how we're all having fun the wrong way and they're going to make us play the game AMG wants to play. AMG is salty about having their hero pilot blocked, like a day one newbie? Unlike most newbies AMG owns the game so instead of learning how strategy works they can just nerf the thing that beat them and remove blocking from the game. Maneuver planning is too dependent on predicting collisions and ship placement? Randomly decide which ship moves first after dials are set. People are spending too much time maneuvering for an advantage and not going directly into the center of the table to brawl? Introduce a turn limit and objectives that punish you for not going straight to the brawl. People are using generics instead of AMG's favorite characters? Introduce a new point system where generic ships cost more than superior named pilots so they're de facto banned. Don't like any of AMG's changes? You're just a bitter loser who doesn't understand how fun works, clinging to your WAAC TFG game and afraid the fun players might beat you.

Are these just tournament rules or did they come out with another official core rulebook with a starter to replace the 2.0 one? I checked out with the second edition when I'd have to spend $100 to update my existing collection for the new edition.

No new Starter Set, still the same 2.0 Starter and upgrade sets

points were released independent anyway and the core rules changes are released as updated pdf (same as with FFG before)

 kodos wrote:
No new Starter Set, still the same 2.0 Starter and upgrade sets

points were released independent anyway and the core rules changes are released as updated pdf (same as with FFG before)

That's disappointing regardless but I appreciate the clarification. One of the things I liked about the original X-wing was the considerable depth of tactics becoming proficient in positioning gave you and hearing that it may be gone in the latest version is disappointing. I applauded the focus on the core ships that FFG was touting in press releases/blog posts in 2.0 over upgrade gimmicks but the price of the sidegrade to 2.0 for my entire collection (while at the same time my local xwing scene died down in the year prior) meant that I didn't ever try it out to see if it was just spin or actually the case. Hearing that it's formally removed to just furball in the center is disheartening.

The main thing AMG did was add scenario play which just doesn't really work for X-Wing very well. If you ignore them I don't really find any issues with the AMG changes. I certainly don't feel it changes the importance of positioning in the game which I found were better all around in the 2.0 version where there was less post movement positioning options to abuse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geifer wrote:
I forgot about Savage. Oops. The odd bounty hunter hero is probably a good call, but I'm not sure in general how power levels will be determined. I can easily see Cad Bane and Pre Viszla being hero level, and we know for sure about Griebous. It's just that a badass like Bo-Katan getting the sidekick slot suggests to me that heroic non-force users will have a hard time earning a top spot. I'm happy to be proven wrong, of course, but for the time being it looks like it's Force users or bust with only a select few that also wield light sabers or have matching gizmos mingling in.

We'll also probably get a TPM era Maul, since this one is specifically robo legs from the Siege of Mandalore.

Expecting this game to be a hit locally. MCP is probably the most regularly played game rivaled only by 40k and the Star Wars group regularly cycles through Armada/X-Wing/Legion. Thus far both groups are very interested.

Today's transmission is about Missions and winning the game!

https://www.atomicmassgames.com/star-wars-transmissions/star-wars-shatterpoint-missions-overview

It's actually very interesting to set up a best 2 of 3 within the game being played, but I like it. Very tug-of-war like some other decent Star Wars games!

Reminds me a bit of Godtear with a lot more flavor added to the scenario itself.

Interesting.

Looks like the first Struggle is more or less even.

The second looks slightly in favor of the loser of the first Struggle (but not grossly so).

I'm curious about the third...

Upon the initial info about this game I had more or less written it off, but as more information comes out I am becoming more intrigued about it, especially as a lot of people at my LGS have gotten pretty excited about it.

I’m pretty “meh” on the Clone Wars (especially the good guy factions), so hopefully they put out some GCW stuff pretty quickly. I’d love to have a Han/Chewy/Rebel Commando team or a Gideon/Dark Trooper/Death Troopers team.

 Sabotage! wrote:
Upon the initial info about this game I had more or less written it off, but as more information comes out I am becoming more intrigued about it, especially as a lot of people at my LGS have gotten pretty excited about it.

I’m pretty “meh” on the Clone Wars (especially the good guy factions), so hopefully they put out some GCW stuff pretty quickly. I’d love to have a Han/Chewy/Rebel Commando team or a Gideon/Dark Trooper/Death Troopers team.

If they take the same-ish pace they did with MCP, you'll see GCW next year.

But I think they know people want GCW factions sooner rather than later, so maybe a Holiday release for at least one Rebel and one Empire Squad (or two each).

They could release it for Life Day celebrations.