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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 13:13:54
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Grumpy Gnome wrote:I loathe how some folks seem to see some sort of aspirational aspects to the Imperium. All I see is a setting that is even worse than the ridiculously misunderstood propaganda that got me into uniform and carrying a rifle.
And I loathe those that assume that because you like something that isn't squeaky clean good, you are instantly a supporter of bad guys. To jump away from a 40k example for a second, I've seen people get accused of supporting evil because they thought Darth Vader was cool. I've seen people scream about how liking Star Destroyers means that you 100% support the Empire and everything it did to the species of the galaxy in Star Wars. Without using the specific 'N' word* I have in mind, let's just say that the conversation got Godwin'd very quickly. People are far too quick to apply immediate black and white blanket statements when it comes to fiction and how people interface with fiction without any level of thought. Enjoyment isn't support. Thinking something is cool doesn't make you somehow complicit or sympathetic to the actions of those doing bad. "There are no good guys in 40K" Bull gak. There are plenty of good guys. There are plenty of heroic people. There are plenty of self-sacrificing people who gladly lay down their lives for the good of their fellow man (either as an abstract or specific people with them). When the Astral Knights all died to a man to stop the Necron world engine, they did it to save lives, not because the Necrons showing up had delayed them from killing more infants or torturing animals or something. They were heroes. They died as heroes. Their story is heroic. One of my most enduring 40k memories is from a game of Space Hulk I played, where one of the Marines had to stay back to hold off my incoming Genestealers, as without doing that I would have overrun his position. My friend played out the talk between the surviving Marines. "Where is Brother Sammael?" "He's not coming." The Imperium is a genocidal juggernaut - that much is clear - but the idea that everyone within the Imperium are all bad guys is childishly ignorant. Not every act taken by people within the Imperium serves some greater horror (and comparing this fictional game to real life SS units speaks to a lack of perspective). Grumpy Gnome wrote:It is very clear in my mind how even as a young soldier I misunderstood the intent of GW in its creation of 40k as I painted my Crimson Fist Space Marines, admiring the courage, strength and ferocity of them. Wanting to emulate their loyalty, dedication and resolve… completely ignorant of the bigger picture of both the 40k setting and in fact my own service. And when I saw something I did not like, such as the Emperor consuming Psykers to survive I just ignored it… completely missing the intended point of 40k from what folks like Rick Priestly have said.
Then that's on you. The two are not mutually exclusive. It's not black and white. Grumpy Gnome wrote:Quoting that there are some decent, empathetic, moral characters in the Imperium does not change the face that the Imperium embraces horror politically as an ends justifies the means for humanity’s survival. A message I strongly disagree with...
It's not a message. Delivering a message is not the aim of the fiction. And D&D will make you worship the devil. Give me a break... Grumpy Gnome wrote:Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
Why does he need to create an "anti-war" story in the first place? Moreover, delivering a story that isn't anti-war doesn't make that story "pro-war" either. You can take no stance on it, because having a stance may not be relevant or even appropriate for the story you are trying to tell. *No, not that one.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/12/17 13:17:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 13:46:18
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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A Town Called Malus wrote:
A Space Marine or guardsman sacrificing their life to quell a rebellion on an Imperial World that sought to free themselves from the tyranny of the Imperium is heroic, yes, but also evil. Their actions serve to perpetuate the oppression of millions of people.
That is what people mean when they say there are "no good guys in 40k".
This is what people mean when they complain about the "no good guys" circlejerk - it robs the setting of any moral complexity, which in turn robs it of its ability to meaningfully underline the negatives it often purports to be satirising. Black on black on black doesn't make for a compelling image, regardless of what the art merchants would tell you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 14:21:43
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Calculating Commissar
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Tsagualsa wrote:The last thing the hobby needs is an influx of kinda-non-ironic-in-an-ironic-way ''I'm not a nazi but you have to hand it to them...'' edgy guys that missed the point of the joke.
I don't think we'd even notice another few hundred thousand of those at this point. We have plenty of our own as it is.
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The supply does not get to make the demands. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 14:23:58
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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His Master's Voice wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote: A Space Marine or guardsman sacrificing their life to quell a rebellion on an Imperial World that sought to free themselves from the tyranny of the Imperium is heroic, yes, but also evil. Their actions serve to perpetuate the oppression of millions of people. That is what people mean when they say there are "no good guys in 40k". This is what people mean when they complain about the "no good guys" circlejerk - it robs the setting of any moral complexity, which in turn robs it of its ability to meaningfully underline the negatives it often purports to be satirising. Black on black on black doesn't make for a compelling image, regardless of what the art merchants would tell you. There is no moral complexity to anything the Imperium does and there never has been. The Imperium was never justified in genocide and its perpetual meat grinder of war. We know this, because humanity was at its greatest and strongest in the setting when it instead forged alliances with alien species rather than seek to exterminate as a first response. The time when humanity actually had a civilisation the Emperor claimed to want to create was when it went against his genocidal ideals. That is where the satire is. The Emperor claimed to want to recreate the human dominion of the galaxy, but his methods guaranteed that it would fail as he only saw the value in conquest and domination, never co-operation. Automatically Appended Next Post: H.B.M.C. wrote:Why does he need to create an "anti-war" story in the first place? Moreover, delivering a story that isn't anti-war doesn't make that story "pro-war" either. You can take no stance on it, because having a stance may not be relevant or even appropriate for the story you are trying to tell. Name one war story that is neutral on war. Seriously. It is impossible to write a story on war that does not, in some way, comment on war itself. Whether that is anti-war or pro-war depends on the biases of the author and the framing of the story. Even if you write a story in which a particular war is justified (WW2 being a historical example when it comes to the Allies, Nazism absolutely had to be stopped), you will still end up commenting on war itself as a concept. Every time you depict a soldier grieving the loss of a comrade killed in battle, you are commenting on war and its effect on the people who fight it. The only way to write a story on war that does not comment on war itself is to write a story that is completely empty of all emotion and meaning.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/12/17 14:46:38
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 14:35:09
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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A Town Called Malus wrote:[
Seriously. It is imppssible to write a story on war that does not, in some way, comment on war itself. Whether that is anti-war or pro-war depends on the biases of the author.
Even if you write a story in which a particular war is justified (WW2 being a historical example when it comes to the Allies, Nazism absolutely had to be stopped), you will still end up commenting on war itself as a concept. Every time you depict a soldier grieving the loss of a comrade killed in battle, you are commenting on war and its effect on the people who fight it.
The concept ''War is terrible and, be it in a long or short time, always ultimately leads to dehumanization. There is no glory and no heroics in it, it's all just more blood on an uncaring altar'' is literally a dude that runs around in the setting. He is also a quarter of 'The Devil' of the setting. Pretty hard to miss.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 14:53:34
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Overread wrote:I can't help but feel the single line of "there's no good guys" gets so grossly overblown in online discussions. Because if you crack open any of the BL books there are good, bad, grey, crazy characters all over the place.
Over the last few years there's been a weird vibe amongst certain elements of the 40k fandom (often led by some of the Youtube content creators), where they have to keep ramming home the fact that the Imperium is bad. I don't know if it's a backlash to Trump or to that Spanish event nonsense or Arch, but these people seem to think that fans of 40k are unable to understand that the Imperium is a bad thing. That we're all going to turn into fascists if us and GW are not reminded of this every few weeks. It's all very weird and feels a bit like an active campaign to get GW to bend to their exact view of the background.
We all know that the Imperium is a communist/facistic theocratic hellhole but that doesn't mean that RELATIVELY speaking it's better than living in a Chaos ruled hellscape or getting eaten by Tyranids. Likewise people can do heroic things in the name of the Imperium and can be good people working within the greater structure of a horrific bureaucratic nightmare. It's called nuance and complex characterisation and I wish the people who kept beating this drum would understand it rather than their narrow view. You could easily create a 40k TV series that has people doing relatively heroic things while acknowledging that the state of the Imperium is god awful.
As H.B.M.C stated it's tiresome and it actually reflects far more badly on those who feel the need to constantly bring up the line and can't understand nuance, than whatever boogey man elements of the fanbase they seem to be targeting and think are far more prominent than they actually are.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/12/17 14:55:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 15:36:58
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I think the issue is people taking that line literally. It's meant on a wider scale with regards to the factions itself, at least it was when the studio used to say it. Are there good guys in the setting? Of course, but they're stand out individuals or smaller groups.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 15:52:58
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I’d like to see the story of yarrick vs ghaz play out on Armageddon. The final scene where our dead hero is brought back to life by the orks would be great for none 40K fans
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 15:53:39
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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I think its also part of the whole narrative of endless war. That whatever victories or joys there are at the small scale; the large scale is still a galaxy burning with strife and war. It's not a setting where one side is going to get the upper hand and win; or where the factions are going to come to a mutual long lasting peace agreement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 16:04:29
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Calculating Commissar
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Londinium wrote:
We all know that the Imperium is a communist/facistic theocratic hellhole but that doesn't mean that RELATIVELY speaking it's better than living in a Chaos ruled hellscape or getting eaten by Tyranids.
It does invite the question why the writers felt it was necessary to write it in this way, and whether those reasons are still valid today, in a world so different from the 80s hellscape it was created in. I don't believe many of us have as much in common ideologically and politically with, say, Rick Priestley circa 1987, than you might initially think. Heck, I don't know if even Rick Priestley 2022 has all things in common with that guy. "We all change, when you think about it, we're all different people; all through our lives, and that's okay, that's good, you've gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be." Warhammer 40,000 is good at remembering, but not so good about moving.
Especially as this is a commercial product we're many of us (in various degrees) buying into, questioning it on occasion would seem to me to be an unequivocal good.
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The supply does not get to make the demands. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 16:22:27
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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I couldnt be more politically distant than what the Imperum represents.
But I just LOVE me some tyranical regimes in fantasy.
The Imperum , Star Wars, Sauron. The Evil guys are always cooler. I feel always bored by the idealistic Rebel stereotype.
And Im the kind of person that cant play Evil runs in RPG because I cant be mean to an npc.
You can have an unironically fantasy product of bad people doing bad stuff. People can enjoy it just like some people enjoy SAW movies.
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Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 16:45:02
Subject: Re:Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Dakka Veteran
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The English language is a funny thing, it can be imprecise at times and easily cause some confusion. Let me try to clarify. I did not say I loathe people that like 40k, the Imperium, Star Destroyers or Stormtrooper toothbrushes. I said I loathe how some people can see the 40k as admirable. Not some people in the Imperium. Not everyone in the Imperium. The Imperium. And I loathe an idea. Not people. I do not loathe you HMBC nor do I assume you liking something that is not squeaky clean means that you like fascists, communists, Nazis, terrorists, genocidal mass murders, etc etc.
I fully understand the idea of a compelling narrative based on good people in bad situations. I have done WW2 re-enacting as a German soldier as well as American. The Normandy museums do an excellent job of expressing the humanity of German soldiers with glamorizing Nazism. A difficult task but it can be done.
It is an easy out to try to look at a war film and switch off the morality of the war by taking a neutral stance. Been there, done that. Or to look at a conflict and assume one side was 100 percent the good guys while ignoring evidence of warcrimes committed by elements of those good guys.
Andor has come closer to portraying Imperials in a sympathetic light than any previous Star Wars media but even as it may have given the viewer pause it did make it clear that while not all the Rebels were “good people” the Empire is something that must be fought against. I have little faith this 40k show will do the same. I hope I am proven wrong.
As for Godwin, there is absolutely no way to think about 40k and not have Nazi comparisons. It is foundational to the original satirical material. Ideological symbology is all over 40k artwork.
Nd yeah, actually making a genocidal political agenda cool is being complicit. Making the idea of being blindly loyal despite horrific acts something to aspire to, to glamorize it… that is being complicit in fostering it.
I am not a pacifist. There is a time and place for violence. The movies we make as a society create contemporary mythology which influence our cultural norms. A certain amount of escapism is fine, healthy, and mental exercises to try to understand “ the other side” are useful to encourage empathy. Darth Vader is a cool villain… but it needs to be clear that Anakin may be a hero, Darth Vader is a villain no matter how cool he might look. The minute Darth Vader/the Emperor becomes the Galaxy‘s/Humanity‘s only hope of survival we have a problem. Empire/Imperium of Man has cool looking uniforms and ships. These are tools of recruitment. Both for the fictional Imperials as well as getting fans to watch. It is the same psychological tools used by real world political organizations.
I did not invent “there are no good guys in 40k”… GW said that officially even if they give mixed messages with having several “good” characters.
Again at no point did I say everyone in the Imperium is evil. All those serving the Imperium are however serving an evil institution in my opinion however.
Again you accuse me of not understanding nuance and then you make blanket statements ignoring my own acknowledgment of the nuances within 40k. Although I would not call the nuance strong enough to be truly compelling narrative. The shades of grey are closer to shades of black, with the occasional point of light. Granted, darkness is necessary to make the light shine. Again, you misjudge me if you think I can not comprehend moral complexity.
And the Satanic Panic jibe is off base. I understand a balance between considering the impact on upbringing and overreacting without critical thinking skills. Hence I am not on here arguing against playing war games with toy soldiers and tiny plastic demons.
I will admit part of my issue is that I am sick of Grimdark. I am sick of edgy antiheroes in yet another cynical nihilistic dystopia. It is not a form of escapism that I think truly helps us all in our current political situation.
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Rick, the Grumpy Gnome
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 17:22:38
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Grumpy Gnome wrote:
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.
For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 17:51:11
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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EviscerationPlague wrote: Grumpy Gnome wrote:
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.
For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.
This is basically it. 40k is so far removed from our own reality, that we cannot apply the same set of general ethics and morals to it. In our world, wars should be avoidable through diplomacy and collaboration, in 40k they aren't. That simple fact alone carries a set of implications which completely changes the definition of morality in that universe. It also means that its moral values cannot be applied to our lived reality either, which is something most people intuitively understand.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:00:12
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Dakka Veteran
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EviscerationPlague wrote: Grumpy Gnome wrote:
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.
For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.
But are alien threats only defeated through draconian, authoritarian religious fundamentalism? You see, that is my concern. The unquestioning assumption that only through such brutality can humanity survive. That questioning things causes doubt and doubt can only come from corrupting external influences.
Everything in 40k only exists because the writers make it so with approval from the top bosses of GW.
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
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Rick, the Grumpy Gnome
https://thegrumpygnome.home.blog/ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:03:53
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Nah. I disagree with that take both of you have.
Even Roboute Guilliman said it when he was revived. The Imperium is not "the only chance of humanity to survive".
Thats taking the exact opossite idea that warhammer 40k is founded upon. "This authoritarian regime is neccesary for our survival" is basically the real-world rethoric of those kind of groups.
Even at its peak during the Great Crusade , GW did an active effort to show how basically any other human civilization that was more moral than the Imperium was better. The Interex literally were inmune to Chaos because they understood it. The same thing that caused the colapse of both Eldar and the Imperium. And they weren't pushovers. They had fought and won agaisnt alien threats without compromising their morals.
Yeah, the Imperium destroyed them, just like the Great Crusade destroyed literally anything, that doesn't means orks or eldar are weak.
The 40k Imperium is a carcass that it is the way it is not for the best of humanity but for the auto-preservation of its elite. Its a land of horror, of superstition, of people doing stupid things they don't understand because they have been doing them for thousands of years, always at the defensive, always losing ground.
And the Emperor was a megalomaniac that even doing all the horrible stuff he did, didn't achieved half the stuff humans did before the Eldar f***ed Slaanesh into existence.
40k is not Fantasy. You could defend fantasy human nations (Bretonnia, the Empire, Kislev, Border Princess, Stalia) because even if they were harsh (just like our own medieval societys) they were basically just like anybody else: A bunch of people trying to survive and prosper. 40k was not build upon those same narratives.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/12/17 18:07:22
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:04:37
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Calculating Commissar
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EviscerationPlague wrote:For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. Cute.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/12/17 18:16:33
The supply does not get to make the demands. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:06:14
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Grumpy Gnome wrote:
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
Endless war sure is good for business if you're into endlessly selling plastic soldiers. Let's not try to assign a deeper meaning to what is essentially marketing material for their main product.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:10:14
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
Mexico
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War isn't avoidable, but that doesn't mean cooperation isn't beneficial. I mean, there are countless books in which the IoM needs to make alliances with Eldar, Tau and even Necrons to survive against greater threats, and usually in those same books you have a xenophobic donkey-cave that is really making everything harder and needs to be killed for the alliance to work.
Without cooperation, the IoM has no hope of surviving, humanity cannot survive alone.
And that's without getting into all the Imperial nonsense like executing IG veterans for having survived a conflict with Chaos, reloading building sized naval guns with slave labor, all the Inquisitorial backstabbing and the IoM literally losing worlds because extremely inefficient bureaucracy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:10:39
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
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Nothing to worry about, as you do it through allegory. Because 40K is a satire.
Plus, unlike real world bigots, the things the Ecclesiarchy warn you against actually will, given half a chance, eat your children and tut at your Nana.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:10:40
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Grumpy Gnome wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: Grumpy Gnome wrote:
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.
For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.
But are alien threats only defeated through draconian, authoritarian religious fundamentalism?
Yes, because you can't negotiate with Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines/Daemons and Necrons without actually being worse off for it. You also can't negotiate with Tyranids at all. Eldar is a half/half.
So basically you'd only have luck with Tau.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:15:12
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Dakka Veteran
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BertBert wrote: Grumpy Gnome wrote:
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
Endless war sure is good for business if you're into endlessly selling plastic soldiers. Let's not try to assign a deeper meaning to what is essentially marketing material for their main product.
That was part of my point. The other part is that in the quest for all that hobby money GW does not care what impact the narrative of 40k has on our society as a cultural construct.
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Rick, the Grumpy Gnome
https://thegrumpygnome.home.blog/ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:18:22
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Galas wrote:Nah. I disagree with that take both of you have.
Even Roboute Guilliman said it when he was revived. The Imperium is not "the only chance of humanity to survive".
Thats taking the exact opossite idea that warhammer 40k is founded upon. "This authoritarian regime is neccesary for our survival" is basically the real-world rethoric of those kind of groups.
Except it is, because you're not dealing with regular people as a threat. Roboute can believe otherwise all he wants, and look how far he gets narratively: he doesn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:19:44
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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Grumpy Gnome wrote: BertBert wrote: Grumpy Gnome wrote:
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
Endless war sure is good for business if you're into endlessly selling plastic soldiers. Let's not try to assign a deeper meaning to what is essentially marketing material for their main product.
That was part of my point. The other part is that in the quest for all that hobby money GW does not care what impact the narrative of 40k has on our society as a cultural construct.
Fantasy/scifi authors rely on their readers being able to separate reality from fiction. Which typically is something most people learn before they are teenagers.
Seriously people we are not far off starting to justify that GW is going to make us all hyper violent war crazed maniacs. You know the whole "video games make you violent" stuff has been debunked more than enough times. Are we REALLY going ot now swing back to say that "video games are fine, but those violent miniature games" are the real source of the problem?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:19:44
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Bryan Ansell
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BertBert wrote: Grumpy Gnome wrote:
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
Endless war sure is good for business if you're into endlessly selling plastic soldiers. Let's not try to assign a deeper meaning to what is essentially marketing material for their main product.
In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium there is only an overarching bureaucracy mired in its own procedural deficiencies its faults in part due to the massive size of the empire it serves.
You will not be missed....except when you take form 5c and fill in only those boxes marked and only filled with original Adminsitrtum approved quill and ink.
This is as accurate as endless war. Why has GW not marketed related paperwork?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:21:19
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Just go watch "The Boys" on Amazon.
That is how 40k should be done by Amazon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:21:44
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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EviscerationPlague wrote: Galas wrote:Nah. I disagree with that take both of you have.
Even Roboute Guilliman said it when he was revived. The Imperium is not "the only chance of humanity to survive".
Thats taking the exact opossite idea that warhammer 40k is founded upon. "This authoritarian regime is neccesary for our survival" is basically the real-world rethoric of those kind of groups.
Except it is, because you're not dealing with regular people as a threat. Roboute can believe otherwise all he wants, and look how far he gets narratively: he doesn't.
His problem isn't the threat outside humanity, its the insanity and mania within humanity. It's powerful Lords of Terra, insane Inquisitors, powerful Witches, Warlocks and Mages (some of which who only deal with Machines). The Imperium is part insane with power struggles, internal strife, insane fears and perceptions. Technology is a religion; AI is feared to the point they use human minds in machines etc... There are logical reasons for some of those, but there's also a massive amount of insanity and indoctrination that gets worse for each generation.
There ARE other ways to survive; humanity keeps trying them. But the Imperium is vast and its arm is strong, despite being withered and corrupted
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:22:41
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
Mexico
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Plus, unlike real world bigots, the things the Ecclesiarchy warn you against actually will, given half a chance, eat your children and tut at your Nana.
Not really no, the Ecclesiarchy says nothing about Daemons or Tyranids. Before the Great Rift knowledge about Daemons was potentially a heresy by itself. The Ecclesiarchy talks about Xenos and heretics in general, but it doesn't get into details, it doesn't differentiate between a Craftworld Eldar or a Tyranid, because if it did then people may start to question the need to get into fights with Craftworlds when Hive Fleets are a thing.
Propaganda needs a scary enemy that can be paradoxically easily beaten, making people aware that Daemons and Tyranids are likely going to eat their children and they cannot really do anything about it because these are predators that operate at far greater scales than individual worlds, much less individual humans, is bad propaganda.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/17 18:23:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:23:28
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Grumpy Gnome wrote:
That was part of my point. The other part is that in the quest for all that hobby money GW does not care what impact the narrative of 40k has on our society as a cultural construct.
The most successful franchises of all time, religions, took hundreds and thousands of years to imbed certain cultural norms into our societies, and with enormous amounts of wealth, power and purpose.
I don't believe 40k does have much of an impact on cultural norms, being a niche entertainment product with a demonstrably absurd premise.
Yes, there will be some bad apples who take the glory of the Imperium at face value to validate their own authoritarian beliefs, but they are a drop in a bucket.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/17 18:25:03
Subject: Amazon + Henry Cavill + Games Workshop = ???
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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EviscerationPlague wrote: Galas wrote:Nah. I disagree with that take both of you have.
Even Roboute Guilliman said it when he was revived. The Imperium is not "the only chance of humanity to survive".
Thats taking the exact opossite idea that warhammer 40k is founded upon. "This authoritarian regime is neccesary for our survival" is basically the real-world rethoric of those kind of groups.
Except it is, because you're not dealing with regular people as a threat. Roboute can believe otherwise all he wants, and look how far he gets narratively: he doesn't.
The discussion is not about "Needs humanity to have big weapons and big armies to fight agaisnt the obviously evil things that Warhammer universe has?". Because the answer to that is clear. The Interex had big armies and fought and won agaisnt various xenos. And then made peace with them and coexisted with them.
The discussion is about "Does humanity need to have such a gruesome regime to survive?" And the answer to that, narratively is "No. Actually, that regime is keeping humanity from becoming even better". And thats a principal core of the setting.
If you disagree with that you are basically in disagrement with the basic principle of warhammer 40k, that humanity has lived golden ages and the present state of affairs is a sad mockery of what it could become if it was not shackled by thousands of years of paranoia and superstition.
So saying that the Imperium , at its current state, is neccesary for humanity survival is not only missing WH40K point. Is basically to believe imperial in-universe propaganda is the truth.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/12/17 18:29:29
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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