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Haighus wrote: That doesn't mean 9th edition 40k has been successful. That means that GW has been successful at making a big profit from the product they have shifted. We have no idea which products have done well or why. For example, people who buy models solely to collect and paint will be uneffected by any current rules.
Unless GW or someone else does widespread surveying of their customer base, no one will actually know this. GW themselves will be able to make inferences from the distribution of product sold too.
Before 8th (and especially 9th), GW didn't care at all about the competitive scene. Huge FAQs/erratas were put up by the community to be used by TO to solve the many many design issues / errors / problems which used to absolutely plague GW's games. And just as today, back in the goold old days, the competitive scene was minuscule compared to the casual scene (in which I throw everyone else : the painter that never plays, the casual players that are not interested in participating in tournaments, etc).
Tom Kirby used to boast that his company was a miniature company, not a gaming company, while at the same time, GW was following the way of the dodo.
The rest is history. The decision made by GW to focus hard on the competitive scene, a first in the company history, had huge positive results. And while Kirby was a complete moron to ignore the "gaming side" of the company he worked for, he was right about GW being first and foremost about selling miniatures. Their primary revenue is still selling (overpriced) miniatures and 40K absolutely beat the crap out of any other game they sell.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/12/29 18:24:37
Hulksmash wrote: While not having access to the internal numbers of AoS vs. 40k I'd be shocked if 40k was making less than during 8th while AoS and other sub games have made up for the massive increase in revenue even when GW simply couldn't make enough items.
Maybe AoS and the secondary games really have made up for the entirety of the increase in sales plus the drop off of 40k. But that tends to stretch credibility.
Also bear in mind that a lot of store owners are a bit cross at GW still for all the supply chain issues. They couldn't get product in to sell. And my friends that run games stores have told me so! (see how relevant that is?)
You may be looking at the wrong things here. Much of the life of 9th ed has happened while Covid lockdowns were widespread. I don't think it's a point of contention that GW profited from people sitting around at home with not much else to do than paint toy soldiers. With that in mind, rather than 40k vs everything else GW produces I'd consider the interesting thing to look at production and sales numbers of rules material compared to prior editions. And as you say, we don't have those numbers.
This is not to say that you're wrong about the popularity of 9th ed, but we have circumstances that don't allow a fair comparison to previous editions on financial success. Without internal numbers we have little to go on to say either way because for 9th ed we have an external factor that may or may not have sold models better than any edition could. Nothing comparable has happened previously.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Hulksmash wrote: While not having access to the internal numbers of AoS vs. 40k I'd be shocked if 40k was making less than during 8th while AoS and other sub games have made up for the massive increase in revenue even when GW simply couldn't make enough items.
Maybe AoS and the secondary games really have made up for the entirety of the increase in sales plus the drop off of 40k. But that tends to stretch credibility.
Also bear in mind that a lot of store owners are a bit cross at GW still for all the supply chain issues. They couldn't get product in to sell. And my friends that run games stores have told me so! (see how relevant that is?)
Sure, but 40k outselling AoS doesn't mean 9th edition was popular. It is very possible that GW would have made more profit than it did with a more popular ruleset.
There are just far to many confounding variables that we have no idea about the impact of.
Hulksmash wrote: While not having access to the internal numbers of AoS vs. 40k I'd be shocked if 40k was making less than during 8th while AoS and other sub games have made up for the massive increase in revenue even when GW simply couldn't make enough items.
Maybe AoS and the secondary games really have made up for the entirety of the increase in sales plus the drop off of 40k. But that tends to stretch credibility.
Also bear in mind that a lot of store owners are a bit cross at GW still for all the supply chain issues. They couldn't get product in to sell. And my friends that run games stores have told me so! (see how relevant that is?)
You may be looking at the wrong things here. Much of the life of 9th ed has happened while Covid lockdowns were widespread. I don't think it's a point of contention that GW profited from people sitting around at home with not much else to do than paint toy soldiers. With that in mind, rather than 40k vs everything else GW produces I'd consider the interesting thing to look at production and sales numbers of rules material compared to prior editions. And as you say, we don't have those numbers.
This is not to say that you're wrong about the popularity of 9th ed, but we have circumstances that don't allow a fair comparison to previous editions on financial success. Without internal numbers we have little to go on to say either way because for 9th ed we have an external factor that may or may not have sold models better than any edition could. Nothing comparable has happened previously.
Plus, without going to deep into the underlying reasons for this, the group that did financially best out of the pandemic were the already wealthy, who suddenly found they had a lot of disposable income they were no longer spending.
I'd wager a majority of GW's whales fall into this category, and as a group would likely have more time and money to spend on 40k.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/29 20:41:29
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Why would you specifically disallow standard relics? I just cannot fathom why you would do that.
"Let us board this Space Hulk so that we might claim it for the glory of Chaos!"
"But my Lord, your Daemon Weapon, Kal'drak'naz, is claustrophobic, so you'll have to leave him behind!"
"Good thinking!"
"For the glory of the Emperor, we will storm this bastion of hate and retake our lost void craf... what... why are you starring at me like that, master Tech-Marine?"
"You're still wearing your Artificer Armour, my Captain. You know the rules for wearing fancy armour inside ships."
"By the blood of Dorn you're right. Let me just switch back to my regular Power Armour."
You guys win. 9th edition isn't the most profitable edition in which they were still more profitable than prior editions while building a new factory.
Also 9th isn't focused on the competitive scene. It's just been acknowledging it actually exists and releasing things for it. Unlike before where they left that in the hands of people running events. But even when doing this they highlighted narrative play in the actual codexes.
Arks of Omen looks to be a good thing. It'll bring more flexibility and actually open up more armies to be playable and fun. I'm excited for it as a competitive player and as a hobbyist building some cool armies and taking units I wouldn't have taken prior because it hamstrung my army to hard.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
Hulksmash wrote: Also 9th isn't focused on the competitive scene.
It most assuredly is. If 40k was a Street Fighter game, it'd be the version of Street Fighter that has "Tournament Edition" in its actual title.
lol yeah, SEVERAL tournament packs coming out, the balance dataslate (which is for matched play) and other things have all been in response to the competitive scene.
Releasing things for competitive doesn't mean it's competitive focused. It's released more actual content for narrative and is set to release narrative ONLY books over the next few months. You guys act like them actually trying to keep the game inline is them focusing on competitive play.
It's easy to be confused because gw literally never paid ANY attention to competitive play. So even releasing some stuff for it seems like it's focused on it. Half the stuff you associate with "competitive" is simply balancing the game so its easier for people to get a better play experience.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
Hulksmash wrote: Releasing things for competitive doesn't mean it's competitive focused.
Quite correct.
But 40k 9th is absolutely tournament focused. Chapter approved literally shifted from a random grab bag of narrative rules, extra army lists, scenarios, optional rules, FAQs and other interesting information into pure tournament updates divided into seasons.
Yes, they added Crusade, but you notice how campaign books with Crusade stuff basically died off, and tournament focused ramped up even further? The lack of matched play rules in the upcoming Arks of Omen books is a direct response to people not wanting to have to carry multiple books to keep their army up to date, something that had become an annoyance to everyone, but was a big deal in the competitive scene.
I'm not part of the competitive scene, and I don't give a toss what's "meta" or what's not - "Metawatch" articles just make me laugh and roll my eyes, especially those early player profiles ones that had 'ratings' for players in 'early game' and 'late game' and so on - so believe me when I say that I love that they have added additional structure to narrative style gaming in this addition.
But it's Tournament Edition 40k, through and through.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why would you specifically disallow standard relics? I just cannot fathom why you would do that.
Spoiler:
"Let us board this Space Hulk so that we might claim it for the glory of Chaos!"
"But my Lord, your Daemon Weapon, Kal'drak'naz, is claustrophobic, so you'll have to leave him behind!"
"Good thinking!"
"For the glory of the Emperor, we will storm this bastion of hate and retake our lost void craf... what... why are you starring at me like that, master Tech-Marine?"
"You're still wearing your Artificer Armour, my Captain. You know the rules for wearing fancy armour inside ships."
"By the blood of Dorn you're right. Let me just switch back to my regular Power Armour."
But HBMC, how is GW going to sell you a second book with some options old and new if they don't deprive you of all the options first?
As I recall we were wondering how GW intends to fill four or more books without the usual matched play additions. Turns out it's dead easy if they just copy paste several pages each from the two dozen or so codices. It's not that thematically fitting relics and warlord traits won't be allowed, you'll just find them in a different place. Sure they could just have a list of items that are allowed in boarding actions, but it's so much neater to have the full rules compiled for your convenience over three lists in three books that you can buy for only [insert current overblown book price in local currency] each.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
EviscerationPlague wrote: Carrying multiple books is a syndrome of wanting to sell $60 codices that y'all eat up. GW needs to go digital.
It never really gets old, flipping through the mental gymnastics to make this -other- customers' fault (just not the speaker, they are always above the rifraff which caused the problem).
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why would you specifically disallow standard relics? I just cannot fathom why you would do that.
Spoiler:
"Let us board this Space Hulk so that we might claim it for the glory of Chaos!"
"But my Lord, your Daemon Weapon, Kal'drak'naz, is claustrophobic, so you'll have to leave him behind!"
"Good thinking!"
"For the glory of the Emperor, we will storm this bastion of hate and retake our lost void craf... what... why are you starring at me like that, master Tech-Marine?"
"You're still wearing your Artificer Armour, my Captain. You know the rules for wearing fancy armour inside ships."
"By the blood of Dorn you're right. Let me just switch back to my regular Power Armour."
Kanluwen wrote: I'm sure there has totally been no other factor, at all, that has not made 9th less popular for store play.
I'm guessing it has something to do with Plasma Guns and a lack of lasguns on Guard sergeants.
Quite a few factions have HQ's that would be almost unstoppable in a corridor fight if they are allowed to take all the toys. Balancing rules is hard, so just press delete right?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why would you specifically disallow standard relics? I just cannot fathom why you would do that.
Spoiler:
"Let us board this Space Hulk so that we might claim it for the glory of Chaos!"
"But my Lord, your Daemon Weapon, Kal'drak'naz, is claustrophobic, so you'll have to leave him behind!"
"Good thinking!"
"For the glory of the Emperor, we will storm this bastion of hate and retake our lost void craf... what... why are you starring at me like that, master Tech-Marine?"
"You're still wearing your Artificer Armour, my Captain. You know the rules for wearing fancy armour inside ships."
"By the blood of Dorn you're right. Let me just switch back to my regular Power Armour."
Kanluwen wrote: I'm sure there has totally been no other factor, at all, that has not made 9th less popular for store play.
I'm guessing it has something to do with Plasma Guns and a lack of lasguns on Guard sergeants.
Quite a few factions have HQ's that would be almost unstoppable in a corridor fight if they are allowed to take all the toys. Balancing rules is hard, so just press delete right?
Yes and the named characters with more bonuses to begin with won't be unstoppable right?
There is a picture of Kharn in the WarCom article but I wouldn't personally be betting on named characters playing a prominent role in the first boarding action book.
Keep in mind:
Arks Of Omen Grant Tournament Pack - A set of rules for handsome, brave, humble, smart, kind and modest tournament players to use.
Arks of Omen Abaddon, Angron, Vashtorr - Boarding Action rules which will probably be as popular as the special terrain rules pack they released this edition... Yes, try to remember the name... By the way 75% off at element games and 10+ in stock... I was going to say city fighting rules, but I honestly don't know what is actually in this book...
Spoiler:
Tactical Deployment.
I thought these new books would also contain datasheet rules for Angron, Vashtorr and whoever is named in the 4th book, maybe the Primaris Missile Stick Marines and some other new units as well.
EightFoldPath wrote: I thought these new books would also contain datasheet rules for Angron, Vashtorr and whoever is named in the 4th book, maybe the Primaris Missile Stick Marines and some other new units as well.
This bit is still unclear thanks to the "no matched play rules" comment from GW when the Arks of Omen books were first revealed. With the exception of Angron, of course, who will be in the World Eaters codex.
We don't actually have information how Vashtorr's datasheet will be distributed. Conventionally we'd expect it in the book named after the character, but GW's statement confuses the whole thing.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
EightFoldPath wrote: I thought these new books would also contain datasheet rules for Angron, Vashtorr and whoever is named in the 4th book, maybe the Primaris Missile Stick Marines and some other new units as well.
This bit is still unclear thanks to the "no matched play rules" comment from GW when the Arks of Omen books were first revealed. With the exception of Angron, of course, who will be in the World Eaters codex.
We don't actually have information how Vashtorr's datasheet will be distributed. Conventionally we'd expect it in the book named after the character, but GW's statement confuses the whole thing.
i suppose it really depends if you count a unit datasheet a "matched play" rule, or just...rules. If you wanted to get technical about it, only the rules surrounding the actual missions themselves are, strictly speaking, "matched play" rules. the turn order, combat resolution, etc, is all Core Rules, and the unit datasheets are not matched play exclusive.
so, GWcould keep to the letter of their word and still push out the rules for vashtorr in his namesake book.
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
EightFoldPath wrote: I thought these new books would also contain datasheet rules for Angron, Vashtorr and whoever is named in the 4th book, maybe the Primaris Missile Stick Marines and some other new units as well.
This bit is still unclear thanks to the "no matched play rules" comment from GW when the Arks of Omen books were first revealed. With the exception of Angron, of course, who will be in the World Eaters codex.
We don't actually have information how Vashtorr's datasheet will be distributed. Conventionally we'd expect it in the book named after the character, but GW's statement confuses the whole thing.
i suppose it really depends if you count a unit datasheet a "matched play" rule, or just...rules. If you wanted to get technical about it, only the rules surrounding the actual missions themselves are, strictly speaking, "matched play" rules. the turn order, combat resolution, etc, is all Core Rules, and the unit datasheets are not matched play exclusive.
so, GWcould keep to the letter of their word and still push out the rules for vashtorr in his namesake book.
Or put the datasheet in the book and up on the website at the same time
Characters and units can be used in open war, and narrative. Datasheets will definitely be allowed in whatever publication regardless of matched play rules.
you have a specific, limited detachment you must use:
0-1 HQ 0-3 Troops
0-3 Elites
yes, that is no compulsory options.
VEHICLES, MONSTERS, BIKES, and CAVALRY are out, as well as anything with a JUMP PACK or some other way to FLY about.
their is a list of faction specific exceptions to this general rule, normally to allow in something that would logically be included but is the wrong type for this. examples given are marine Hellblasters and Eliminators, Tau Crisis suits ("so long as they dont FLY", whatever that means), and the Hounds of Khorne.
everyones faction specific limits and exceptions have been kindy provided free, here on this link:
Ive not read the full list on there, so i cant comment on any factions exceptions, but what do people think? this could provide some intresting army compositions.
edit: reading closer into one faction (thousand sons), we have some intresting changes to the default rules:
thier is something called "boarding squads", which seems to be a universal rule for allowing big squads to split into multiple smaller squads, combat squad style.
one of the standard mustering rules has been narrowed in scope (can only take 1 cultist unit, can not take more tzanngor units than rubrics, and scarabs do not count for this)
allowed to take chaos spawn (dispite being fast attack)
legion command (our points upgrade abilites) are not allowed.
certain psychic powers have had their casting value increased significantly. most of the powers named are ultility powers like "extra move" and the "deep strike" powers.
so, you could run a force of 2 5 man scarab bricks, which might be hard to shift.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/03 16:51:02
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
It means losing Fly, Deepstrike, The ability to take Prototype Systems, and being M6.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/03 16:47:43
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It means losing Fly, Deepstrike, The ability to take Prototype Systems, and being M6.
yeah, i wrote that before i saw the list where it explained it.
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
The pdf is surprisingly game-y for GW (and yes, I know that sounds ironic).
All the warp charge changes, a few outright profile changes, and very specific squad sizes seem unusual, and micro-managing game details that they usual just handwave or ignore for non-standard scenarios.
It seems... fiddly. They're taking a lot away and adding 'chosen exceptions' that feel weird. I'm not sure this would be fun to play.
It also seems to bizarrely downplay how stupidly big 40k ships are, especially Space Hulks. Its another lore mismatch, because we absolutely know there hallways big enough for tanks and large open spaces big enough for full scale battlefields.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/03 17:02:38
Voss wrote: The pdf is surprisingly game-y for GW (and yes, I know that sounds ironic).
All the warp charge changes, a few outright profile changes, and very specific squad sizes seem unusual, and micro-managing game details that they usual just handwave or ignore for non-standard scenarios.
It seems... fiddly. They're taking a lot away and adding 'chosen exceptions' that feel weird. I'm not sure this would be fun to play.
It also seems to bizarrely downplay how stupidly big 40k ships are, especially Space Hulks. Its another lore mismatch, because we absolutely know there hallways big enough for tanks and large open spaces big enough for full scale battlefields.
That can be played with normal 40k rules, so I think the intent here is for claustrophobic halls and potential squeezey spaces.
I think it’s great honestly and about as keen as myself can get for 40k.