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2024/12/21 15:08:15
Subject: Re:[Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
Well, in celebration of the STLs release, we tested out TC at my club tonight. 4 players, 2 tables, 3 games.
Tables:
Spoiler:
It's okay. The editing is terrible. Mantra of the day was "they're shipping rulebooks last so they will catch the errors". It combines the absolute worst of 1990s and 2020s GW design language, and we coined the term vaguely overexplained. Massive word salads that try and spectacularly fail to cover all cases.
Activation sequence is pleasant, there is potential to do a lot at once with one figure but nothing is guaranteed and there is a hard cap on not repeating actions, so no snowballing out of control. Definitely the one part of the game I'd like all wargame designers to take a look at and iterate on further.
Dice mechanics, as expected, get monotonous quick, you're always fishing for that 7+ on 2d6 and every item, every skill, every stat is a modifier to the roll, there is no design space for anything else.
Damage is fairly abstract with the blood tokens you can cash in for a debuff on their attack roll or buff on your damage roll. It can often happen for one token to do a few laps around the table while resolving an attack sequence (from a machine gun, say) without anything meaningful happening. You shoot, you cash in a token, you score "inflict one token", repeat.
Bottom line, if a pleasant person asks me for a game and I'm free, I'll play. I will never ask for a game myself. I'd rather play Forbidden Psalm: The Last War if I wanted the vibe, or The Doomed if I wanted a slick unified dice mechanic, or Turnip28 if I felt like kitbashing a crazy grimdark regiment.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/12/21 23:12:35
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2024/12/22 00:19:02
Subject: Re:[Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
He must have an actual head, drawn on a little piece of paper. It just must have slipped out of the clip
@blackfang - thanks for the write up. I was expecting this after I skimmed the rules when they first released - a lot of form, but no actual substance. A couple of battle reports on YT confirmed that.
Not too dissimilar to what boardgamers call the KS syndrome - a couple of kilograms worth of plastic figures and cardboard in several attractively colourful boxes but with very little actual game inside. OfcTC doesn't have components or boxes like a board game, but seems to have a similar ratio of form (which attracts customers) to function.
2024/12/22 09:42:53
Subject: [Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
Most likely, yes.
I'm not sure I like the rules for inflicting injuries. I don't mind the action table as there does seem to be a fair bit of granularity (though I can imagine the +/- dice system can be confusing at first), but the injury system is odd in that a big monster is about as easy to wound and kill as a little guy, if I understand the rules right.
Big monsters do get the Tough rule which basically means that you have to take them out of action twice, but the odds of getting them to that state is about the same as an infantryman, which is weird to me.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/12/22 14:04:17
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2024/12/22 14:22:01
Subject: [Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Most likely, yes. I'm not sure I like the rules for inflicting injuries. I don't mind the action table as there does seem to be a fair bit of granularity (though I can imagine the +/- dice system can be confusing at first), but the injury system is odd in that a big monster is about as easy to wound and kill as a little guy, if I understand the rules right.
I think the game could benefit from a max blood-marker mechanic, where a model can only support so many blood markers before it's immediately taken out of action.
Dice math is pretty wild, the first + or - dice is a massive swing in the 2d6 roll, 3d6 drop highest is basically a 6+ on 1D6 and 3d6 drop lowest is a 2+ on 1D6 roll. And modifiers are everywhere, as that's the only design space there is. Every skill, every stat, every item is a modifier to the number of dice in this one roll, and once you add them all up and see if you're dropping lowest or dropping highest, you can be pretty sure what the outcome will be without bothering with the roll.
There is armour as a straight (not dice but final result) modifier to the injury roll, tough models with -3 to injury rolls when you need a 9 to kill is a tall order, you basically need boxcars. There is a hard cap on blood tokens, but it's 6 for any model, and you can cash 6 in to roll +1 dice in injury rolls and add it to the score, rather than picking highest. On the whole the token stuff feels very abstract and board gamey tho.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/12/22 14:24:25
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2024/12/22 14:27:55
Subject: [Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
That's not how it says it works in the rules though. I'm looking at the 1.5 version and you get a +1 Dice pour each pip you have on the blood marker, or you exchange 6 pips for a bonus D6.
Bloodbath: Roll an additional D6 and add it to the injury roll total. Costs six
BLOOD MARKERS (three if the target is
Down)
When rolling on the Injury Chart against this
model, the opponent can spend one or more of
the BLOOD MARKERS to add +1 DICE to the
roll for each pip. This makes a severe injury more
likely. When you attack a wounded model, you
can spend one or more of the markers to add +1
DICE to the attack roll for each marker.
But yeah, the blood marker mechanic does feel kind of gamey. I think I would have preferred a health pool system, but that seems to be a core mechanic the devs are going for.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/12/22 14:29:27
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2024/12/22 14:49:21
Subject: [Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
Having never played mordheim or even looked at mordheims rules, hows it compare? Big selling point of the game fpr a while now has been "its mevhanically a modern iteration of mordheim", curious how true that is
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2024/12/22 17:33:05
Subject: [Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
chaos0xomega wrote: Having never played mordheim or even looked at mordheims rules, hows it compare? Big selling point of the game fpr a while now has been "its mevhanically a modern iteration of mordheim", curious how true that is
Mordheim uses the classic GW statline, IGOUGO, attack mechanics, etc. It's skirmish Warhammer. Like Necromunda, it adds a lot of granularity, but there is already a slight shift towards reducing the mental load (mooks come in groups that level up together, for instance). Like most GW games it's honestly a mechanical travesty, but has immense narrative potential, from capturing the Y2K zeitgeist to adding oodles of random tables and mishaps that can happen to your dudes, making it widely considered as the most immersive game ever.
I personally think TC cannot compare in the slightest, due to the setting, teen edge dialed up to 21 where everyone is stuck in permanent war and there is no big treasure at the end to aspire to and retire on. Mordheim was about assembling a team of losers who risk it all to score big and you watch them fail in funny ways, TC is just marching miserable wretches off to die in trenches for either God or Satan, I don't see how to emotionally invest in that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/12/22 17:34:17
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2024/12/23 01:01:50
Subject: Re:[Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
lord_blackfang wrote: Well, in celebration of the STLs release, we tested out TC at my club tonight. 4 players, 2 tables, 3 games.
It's okay.
The editing is terrible. Mantra of the day was "they're shipping rulebooks last so they will catch the errors". It combines the absolute worst of 1990s and 2020s GW design language, and we coined the term vaguely overexplained. Massive word salads that try and spectacularly fail to cover all cases.
Activation sequence is pleasant, there is potential to do a lot at once with one figure but nothing is guaranteed and there is a hard cap on not repeating actions, so no snowballing out of control. Definitely the one part of the game I'd like all wargame designers to take a look at and iterate on further.
Dice mechanics, as expected, get monotonous quick, you're always fishing for that 7+ on 2d6 and every item, every skill, every stat is a modifier to the roll, there is no design space for anything else.
Damage is fairly abstract with the blood tokens you can cash in for a debuff on their attack roll or buff on your damage roll. It can often happen for one token to do a few laps around the table while resolving an attack sequence (from a machine gun, say) without anything meaningful happening. You shoot, you cash in a token, you score "inflict one token", repeat.
Bottom line, if a pleasant person asks me for a game and I'm free, I'll play. I will never ask for a game myself. I'd rather play Forbidden Psalm: The Last War if I wanted the vibe, or The Doomed if I wanted a slick unified dice mechanic, or Turnip28 if I felt like kitbashing a crazy grimdark regiment.
This is the most useful post I've seen on the actual gameplay so far, and it doesn't seem like TC is adding anything to the grimdark skirmish scene that those other options you've mentioned aren't already doing and better.
Started printing. Iron Sultanate have all come out well. Had a lot of failures with Heretic Legions, however, which is odd as gave the printer a full clean and reset before getting started. Hopefully just FEP needs tightening. The rafts and supports are all very light, so not much margin for errors in other areas.
JamesY wrote: Started printing. Iron Sultanate have all come out well. Had a lot of failures with Heretic Legions, however, which is odd as gave the printer a full clean and reset before getting started. Hopefully just FEP needs tightening. The rafts and supports are all very light, so not much margin for errors in other areas.
Watch for resin traps. I know the War Wolf has a pocket under the glyph on his forehead.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2024/12/23 11:13:19
Subject: [Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
It you get errors/print problems do check the Atlas3DSS Discord as they've been noting errors/fixing supports and providing printer setting/setup support https://discord.com/invite/CZxNgneq
@blackfang cheers for that, I'll see if I can get a small hole drilled and drain it out.
@Overead cheers, I've been looking at the Google doc. Didn't have an issue with the bull, I think that just needed properly filling with IPA and giving a good shake before draining it all out thoroughly, so some of the reported issues seem to be fixable at the user end. Never gotten on with Discord, but might have to download it again if it's a different log to the Google one.
JamesY wrote: @blackfang cheers for that, I'll see if I can get a small hole drilled and drain it out.
@Overead cheers, I've been looking at the Google doc. Didn't have an issue with the bull, I think that just needed properly filling with IPA and giving a good shake before draining it all out thoroughly, so some of the reported issues seem to be fixable at the user end. Never gotten on with Discord, but might have to download it again if it's a different log to the Google one.
Discord is just sign in with your own account - think of it like reddit where one account lets you join many separate groups. Only Discord lets groups have multiple channels to converse in so its not the "one long stream of posts mess" that reddits become.
@Overread thank you for the breakdown, that makes it seem more accessible. I'll try and get my head around it, seems that more and more digital sculptors are using it as their primary communication platform so would be helpful to get on with it
JamesY wrote: @Overread thank you for the breakdown, that makes it seem more accessible. I'll try and get my head around it, seems that more and more digital sculptors are using it as their primary communication platform so would be helpful to get on with it
Honestly its one of the biggest spots for 3D printing community interactions from creators and industry people. FB and Reddit have many fans but Discord is where you'll find most of the actual creators and printing firms
JamesY wrote: @Overread thank you for the breakdown, that makes it seem more accessible. I'll try and get my head around it, seems that more and more digital sculptors are using it as their primary communication platform so would be helpful to get on with it
Honestly its one of the biggest spots for 3D printing community interactions from creators and industry people. FB and Reddit have many fans but Discord is where you'll find most of the actual creators and printing firms
Yeah, and Trench Crusade is basically built on STLs. It's very supportive of 3d printing and is pretty much a miniature agnostic game.
Discord community is pretty chill too.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2024/12/31 10:30:54
Subject: [Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
The Heretic forces lead the Faithful in the arms race of tanks and other armoured vehicles. They
are heavily armoured, fast-moving and often armed with terrifying hell-forged Sacrilege-type
tank mortars. These weapons are designed to penetrate trenches, pillboxes and other defensive
structures by employing technology that briefly tears through reality to puncture the defences.
They target the occupants within using ammunition that unleashes echoes of the reversed
words of God's Creation, reverberating at bone-shattering volume throughout the structures
under attack. Specifically designed to undo divine work, they peel away skin, nervous systems
and finally the flesh and internal organs of any mortals, layer by layer for each word as God’s
creation is undone, causing excruciating death as their target slowly becomes unmade.
To counter these armoured threats that have been used time and again to break through their
lines, the Prussians have developed many battlefield innovations from anti-materiel rifles to
specialist close quarter Gardekorps units. As the Sacrilege cannons are slow-firing and hard to
aim, the Prussians counter them with lighting-fast close quarters tactics.
The swords of the Gardekorps, commonly called ”tank-splitters”, are specifically designed to
disable or destroy enemy armoured vehicles.
Developed by the Prussian Institute of Metallurgy,
their edges are orichalcum and titanium alloy, and these near-monomolecular blades can cut
through most vehicle tracks and armour with ease, disabling them while the rest of the unit
swarms the tank with incendiary grenades. Speed is of essence here, as Heretics are
well-aware of this tactic and counter such attacks with elite Legionnaires of their own, who
compete with each other in capturing rather than killing the specialist Stoßtruppen, so they can
be sold to the agents of the Court of the Seven-Headed Serpent as punishment for their
audacity.
Though the Free State of Prussia is governed by an outlandish system called democracy (a relic
from ancient Hellas) where each citizen can vote for representatives on the Landtag to decide
state affairs, the nobility maintains a strong military tradition and has funds to buy officer’s
commission. Many families can trace their lineage back to the Teutonic Orders who once
conquered the lands of Prussia.
Depicted here is Frau Hauptmann Frederica von Goltz of the IV Gardekorps of Königsberg.
Many units of the Prussian army disallow women in combat units, but scions of noble lineage
often exercise their privilege of joining any regiment they wish. Von Goltz’s armour is
hand-crafted by her personal armourer and, unlike the mass-produced suits of the
rank-and-file, it allows sufficient speed and mobility for the furious and bitter melee combat the
role of the unit requires.
Mensur duelling is used to assess the required bravery of candidates of
the tank-splitter units, and Hauptmann von Goltz carries many scars on her face to prove hers.
"To be Prussian is an honour but not a pleasure."
Spoiler:
Loving the description of the Heretics anti-creation weapon, it sounds horrifying.
2024/12/31 11:12:21
Subject: [Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
I like the blend of medieval and more modern fare. I think it looks cool.
If that's the officer, I wonder what the rank and file gardekorps looks like. It says they wear mass produced armour that's not as agile as her suit, so maybe they look bulkier and more industrial?
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2024/12/31 13:05:41
Subject: [Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)
JamesY wrote: @Overread thank you for the breakdown, that makes it seem more accessible. I'll try and get my head around it, seems that more and more digital sculptors are using it as their primary communication platform so would be helpful to get on with it
Honestly its one of the biggest spots for 3D printing community interactions from creators and industry people. FB and Reddit have many fans but Discord is where you'll find most of the actual creators and printing firms
Yeah, and Trench Crusade is basically built on STLs. It's very supportive of 3d printing and is pretty much a miniature agnostic game.
Discord community is pretty chill too.
No need to tell me that bit- went all in for all the stls in the KS. Printer has been running none stop since they arrived .
Blackfang has a very specific definition of what a roadmap is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/01/05 18:27:59
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
~4100
~1660
.
