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 lord_blackfang wrote:
The price on that absurd, but clearly TC dragged in a whole new demographic with deep deep pockets into the indy sphere and I hope we don't see rapid gentrification here.

For the rest of us, here's a TC project that looks a tad larger and is literally 1/15th the price

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/blackcobraminiatures/trench-pilgrim-warband-and-terrain

For the $11 of that set, I'll back it for the terrain. But miniature wise, there is no comparison to the Red Brigade. Red Brigade is 15 times better in my opinion, and some of these files are free online. I downloaded the bomb sinners this weekend for free. I didn't even print him once I sliced the file as it looked so underwhelming on my screen.

I do feel the Red Brigade is priced a little too high. I am holding off at least till next week as I am getting together with my group on Sunday and they will get their first prints of models then from the prior kickstarter.

The bomb sinners look great, but oof, almost everything else looks pretty dire. The priest of punishment has banger art, but the model looks so.. off?

Honestly when you consider what an STL lets you do its crazy that monthly releases have pushed the STL down to around $1 or less in value.

So honestly I'm actually happy to see much higher STL prices being pushed into the market. Right now the value of the STL is basically unsustainable - it works but it burns out creators and burns out customers (you can get 1000s of models so fast). Perhaps this campaign is being cheeky on the price compared to others; but I'd welcome a few more higher priced STL campaigns to perhaps ease the concept of the value of the STL up instead of down .

 Overread wrote:
Honestly when you consider what an STL lets you do its crazy that monthly releases have pushed the STL down to around $1 or less in value.

So honestly I'm actually happy to see much higher STL prices being pushed into the market. Right now the value of the STL is basically unsustainable - it works but it burns out creators and burns out customers (you can get 1000s of models so fast). Perhaps this campaign is being cheeky on the price compared to others; but I'd welcome a few more higher priced STL campaigns to perhaps ease the concept of the value of the STL up instead of down .

Quoted for truth!!!

It's a brutal seesaw to be sure. I'd certainly like creators to eat well, but higher prices also means fewer people getting into printing, supporting fewer creators, pirating more, and so on.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's a brutal seesaw to be sure. I'd certainly like creators to eat well, but higher prices also means fewer people getting into printing, supporting fewer creators, and so on.

There's a balancing point. Plus whilst higher prices means fewer customers lets not forget most of this customerbase is willing to spend in the region of £300-500 minimum to buy into owning a printer (plus accessories and so forth) ontop of likely supporting physical model producers as well. Ergo its not as if this is a super-cheap hobby to start with.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly when you consider what an STL lets you do its crazy that monthly releases have pushed the STL down to around $1 or less in value.

So honestly I'm actually happy to see much higher STL prices being pushed into the market. Right now the value of the STL is basically unsustainable - it works but it burns out creators and burns out customers (you can get 1000s of models so fast). Perhaps this campaign is being cheeky on the price compared to others; but I'd welcome a few more higher priced STL campaigns to perhaps ease the concept of the value of the STL up instead of down .

Very true, as a sculptor I rely on the income, so have never even considered things like patreon where it's a lot of work to chase the market down the to its inevitable "$1 bag o' AI renders" heat death in ~5 years time.

The two active kickstarters linked (red brigade and trench pilgrims) are real outliers for pricing. I'll probably back the latter since I still need a warband other than my Mantic demons and the tank is really great.

I also have a Trench terrain KS campaign upcoming, with pentagrammic trenches as the main feature. It'll be priced a little higher than my usual ($29 rather than $25), but that's more a reflection of inflation and needing to pay bills rather than trying to price gouge:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/warscape/cursed-trenches-3d-printable-hellscapes-for-your-tabletop

Also, I made some demonic tank traps as a free sample, here's a direct download link for anyone who wants some easy scatter for the game:

https://delivery.shopifyapps.com/-/04e7b59eff60e298/eb71b177e593fa26

scarletsquig wrote:

I also have a Trench terrain KS campaign upcoming, with pentagrammic trenches as the main feature. [/img]

We will watch your career with great interest

 Overread wrote:
Honestly when you consider what an STL lets you do its crazy that monthly releases have pushed the STL down to around $1 or less in value.

So honestly I'm actually happy to see much higher STL prices being pushed into the market. Right now the value of the STL is basically unsustainable - it works but it burns out creators and burns out customers (you can get 1000s of models so fast). Perhaps this campaign is being cheeky on the price compared to others; but I'd welcome a few more higher priced STL campaigns to perhaps ease the concept of the value of the STL up instead of down .

I agree. I'm astounded at some of the moaning from players about the price of these(which after the increased amount of models IIRC results in something like $3 a model if you were to buy the STLs individually, lower if all the stretches are met) when the Westfalia team still needs to make some sort of profit on this to keep working. I've literally seen people say that supporting this and the price of the all in Digital would "set a dangerous precedent", whatever that means.

I mean, personally, the "dangerous precedent" here is that a vocal minority(there was clearly enough people happy with the price to unlock stretch goals before they added the 24 additional figures and upgrade parts) was able to bully the creators into lowering the value of their product.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly when you consider what an STL lets you do its crazy that monthly releases have pushed the STL down to around $1 or less in value.

So honestly I'm actually happy to see much higher STL prices being pushed into the market. Right now the value of the STL is basically unsustainable - it works but it burns out creators and burns out customers (you can get 1000s of models so fast). Perhaps this campaign is being cheeky on the price compared to others; but I'd welcome a few more higher priced STL campaigns to perhaps ease the concept of the value of the STL up instead of down .

I agree. I'm astounded at some of the moaning from players about the price of these(which after the increased amount of models IIRC results in something like $3 a model if you were to buy the STLs individually, lower if all the stretches are met) when the Westfalia team still needs to make some sort of profit on this to keep working. I've literally seen people say that supporting this and the price of the all in Digital would "set a dangerous precedent", whatever that means.

I mean, personally, the "dangerous precedent" here is that a vocal minority(there was clearly enough people happy with the price to unlock stretch goals before they added the 24 additional figures and upgrade parts) was able to bully the creators into lowering the value of their product.

The problem is there's a hard core group who got into 3D printing purely because "its cheap". They only want cheap nothing more and they had a healthy (if not excessive) serving of cheap.
The other side of the coin is I've seen creators burn out entirely and even larger groups struggle to keep up with that kind of demand - it doesn't sustain itself at all.

I hope they weather the comments and stick to their guns and I hope it genuinely works.

I completely agree. I've actually had to re-evaluate my own support for some creators because of the "way more STLs than I'll ever actually print" thing. I realized I was backing some purely because of how cheap they were and that doing so was actually a problem(on my own end, not necessarily because it feeds into what you're talking about).

The other trap is it also tickles that "collectors" itch a bit and you can easily end up supporting a creator not because they provide huge amounts of cheap things, but because you've already got their entire/large amount of their line.

I've also got one or two where what they charge per month for a patreon sub is worth the one or two models I 'really' want from them and everything else is a bonus.


But yeah I'm trying to cut down a lot this year cause I started working out things as armies and prints and the list got very scary long very fast! There's some utterly awesome artists out there and 3D printing does give a huge degree of creative freedom. It's awesome but also yeah - 3-4 years and you are well and truly burned out on volume of material to print.

Yeah, I think I've printed maybe 1/3 or less of the stuff I've gotten off of cheap Patreons and even some of that was me looking for reasons to use those.

So what I'm getting from you two is that prices should be higher and customers should spend less.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So what I'm getting from you two is that prices should be higher and customers should spend less.

More that the value of the STL should be higher and the delivery focusing on quality/style/content over volume. Which has the net bonus that it encourages customers to spend over a longer duration.

Rather htan super low value high quantity releases which 100% DO get attention; but which can burn out both customers and creators.

You guys are out of your minds, 140gbp for 40 STLs is unduly expensive. The feeling in my group buy is that he saw the TC success (also highly overpriced, but less so than this) and started dreaming of his new found wealth. Westfalia have always been on the pricier end but this is new heights.

TC has a hype engine and demand level that most creators dont have, most creators will struggle to deliver the value proposition (or rather justify the vanity pricing) that TC has

I'm not feeling the all- in price, but I can absolutely see myself cherrypicking a few models I really like.

Like the rest of you I've dialed my stl purchases way back, and tend to just grab the models that really get my attention.
It just so happens that said models tend to be from the same regular pool of creators that I enjoy!

The dangerous precedent was set when "studios" offered hundreds (maybe thousands) of hours of design and sculpting work for a pittance on Patreon/Tribes/etc. every month. No single person creator could likely ever keep up.

Also, I often wonder what they pay their concept artists and sculptors.

As someone who was a tribes member of Wargames Atlantic digital. When you make so many STL's every month, they can vastly var in quality.

I'm seeing some real keepers for Trench Crusade, and some hard passes as well.

Digital space is the great equalizer, your labour here is worth the same whether you're from an entitled white colonizer nation or... the other guys. And one side is balking at the rates while the other is living comfortably

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Digital space is the great equalizer, your labour here is worth the same whether you're from an entitled white colonizer nation or... the other guys. And one side is balking at the rates while the other is living comfortably

Uh huh. Globalization, exchange rates, and standards of living definitely vary all over the world. Doesn't really change the base facts of the situation. Weird of you to bring race into it though...

 Taarnak wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Digital space is the great equalizer, your labour here is worth the same whether you're from an entitled white colonizer nation or... the other guys. And one side is balking at the rates while the other is living comfortably

Uh huh. Globalization, exchange rates, and standards of living definitely vary all over the world. Doesn't really change the base facts of the situation. Weird of you to bring race into it though...

No one but you said anything about race. It is hard for any artist earn a living through their craft. And it's even harder when you live in what was once called the "third world".
I don't think I am saying anything controversial here...

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Digital space is the great equalizer, your labour here is worth the same whether you're from an entitled white colonizer nation or... the other guys. And one side is balking at the rates while the other is living comfortably

Uh huh. Globalization, exchange rates, and standards of living definitely vary all over the world. Doesn't really change the base facts of the situation. Weird of you to bring race into it though...

No one but you said anything about race. It is hard for any artist earn a living through their craft. And it's even harder when you live in what was once called the "third world".
I don't think I am saying anything controversial here...

I suggest you reread what you quoted.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So what I'm getting from you two is that prices should be higher and customers should spend less.

Of course....

They paid low, got lots, now if the price goes up, their "collection" is worth more.
Much like many GW model buyers not fussing about price increases, as their collection is going up in price.

I liked the days when toy soldiers were toy soldiers for playing games with. Not "investments".

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So what I'm getting from you two is that prices should be higher and customers should spend less.

Of course....

They paid low, got lots, now if the price goes up, their "collection" is worth more.
Much like many GW model buyers not fussing about price increases, as their collection is going up in price.

I liked the days when toy soldiers were toy soldiers for playing games with. Not "investments".

STLs aren't investments, period.

The "value" of a collection of STLs for private use is essentially ZERO.

God forbid people be paid fair wages.

Laughing Man wrote:
God forbid people be paid for wages.

This is the crux of it.

Laughing Man wrote:
God forbid people be paid fair wages.

Obviously they should. But how do you accomplish fair wages, and hopefully fair prices, on a digital product without region locking stls? 150€ in Canada is very different from 150€ in Poland.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
150€ in Canada is very different from 150€ in Poland.

I think the issue is more that a few sculptors (or rather teams of sculptors) have gotten successful and started increasing how much they include in their different patreon tiers so that any newcomer who tries to compete has to essentially do the same to gain traction (if they want to hope for long term sustainability). Kinda how the price competition on the iOS app store (to push your app up the charts) led to essentially all apps being free with some sort of IAP (and loot boxes in nearly every game) because people got so used to not paying for apps.

It's a weird race to the bottom where the system is heavily dominated by "as much stuff as possible for as little money as possible", even if it might not be sustainable in the long term. Sculptors in a low cost of living area might have some advantage but the more popular sellers still seem to drop so many miniatures per month that it's not manageable for single sculptors to compete. And the audience seems to prefer to pay 40€ or 50€ for a few dozen miniatures in a patreon (of which they might only want to print a handful) than to just pay 10€ to 20€ for what they actually need/want.

It feels like a significant "more stuff per less money" FOMO thing is going on that's doing to the industry what Walmart did to many independent shops in smaller towns in the US (dominate the space and make it difficult to thrive or even survive).