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JWBS wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
The Story:

A Watcher In The Dark woke up The Lion because Luther finally ran away from home and we only have 1 guy that knows outside of you. Also, he's the same guy that lost him.

The End.

Pretty much. imo one can criticise the lore for being bad, I do it all the time, but people here seem to be saying it makes no sense, it's illogical, something like that. No, not really.

I don't even know what I would consider "illogical" at this point in 40k.....

The Khan rode his bike into the Vengeful Spirit and ghostbustered Sanguinius' soul. Corax captured the Sanguinor and jumped in The Khan's sidecar, came out of the warp to rez Sangy. They realized that Dorn's hand and Ferrus' head were stored under Sangy's body the whole time. The 5 Musketeer's, bodies reassembled, lassoed all the Hive Fleets and drug them into the warp.

That seems pretty illogical.

 kodos wrote:

as I said, not the first time they made that promise and if they will stick to it this time, we don't know (and remember, you just needed the free core rules and the datasheets of your units to play 8th edition as well, you never "needed" anything else)

but given that this is the 10th time they try not screwing it up again, with a mid-edition design shift or "we meant something different" after releasing the first codex, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt

I think it's fair to not give them the benefit of the doubt.

For me this is the strongest language they've ever used about future books.

There will certainly be some sort of power creep, because I imagine they'll do the same old Codex release schedule.

My hope is if they keep to their commitment then the swings won't be as wild as the past.

The whole sleeping Lion thing was obviously inspired by Arthurian legend. And you know what King Arthur never does? Wake up. The Lion is no longer space King Arthur. Now he's just another space Superman running around doing superhero stuff. Lame.

I can't wait for them to bring back Sanguinius and ruin that whole storyline too.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The whole sleeping Lion thing was obviously inspired by Arthurian legend. And you know what King Arthur never does? Wake up. The Lion is no longer space King Arthur. Now he's just another space Superman running around doing superhero stuff. Lame.

I can't wait for them to bring back Sanguinius and ruin that whole storyline too.

...talk about a histrionic reaction.

Far be it from GW to depart from your particular vision of their own background.

This was one of the most spectacular reveals of recent memory, and yet there are still people acting like it's the end of the hobby?

I admit, an impish part of me wishes that they'd just introduce female Astartes. Maybe have an Indomitus founding chapter led by Chapter Mistress Aneeta Sark'eesian - just to drive certain elements of the hobby screaming from the scene. It's becoming so f-ing unbearable at this point.


...the Lion is an outstanding model. The only reason I may not pick up a copy is because all my money will be dumped into Seraphon.

I'm curious as to what story has been ruined here? The story where the Lion is asleep and never does nothing? Not much of a story...

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
I admit, an impish part of me wishes that they'd just introduce female Astartes. Maybe have an Indomitus founding chapter led by Chapter Mistress Aneeta Sark'eesian - just to drive certain elements of the hobby screaming from the scene. It's becoming so f-ing unbearable at this point.

You have no idea how close I was to putting a character called The Great Sark into something. Then the brief changed. Anyway...

JWBS wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
The Story:

A Watcher In The Dark woke up The Lion because Luther finally ran away from home and we only have 1 guy that knows outside of you. Also, he's the same guy that lost him.

The End.

Pretty much. imo one can criticise the lore for being bad, I do it all the time, but people here seem to be saying it makes no sense, it's illogical, something like that. No, not really.

Until the book comes out and people can see what the story of him returning actually is - and I'm assuming it isn't a thing in the Vashtorr-invades-The-Rock book - it seems a bit early to even be going after the lore, IMO.

Sculpt seems pretty nice - though I would like to see it next to Guilliman, not just Guilliman's shadow - and the four head options are cool, even if hood-but-no-helmet is giving me unmasked-Green-Arrow vibes...

Green Arrow? I was thinking Obi-Wan.

"Hello there... for the Emperor!"

I'm not necessarily in the market for the Primarch, then again, I said that about Mortarion before subbing to Conquest.If I pick up that new Thousand Sons box, I'll probably probably end up with Magnus


I am torn between the two hooded options for my favourite. Winged helmets don't float my boat.

One of the main things I've been thinking about is Cypher? We know he wants to get in front of the big E... Maybe the Lion knows why?

In addition, good opportunity for Luther to be a player in the background at least... Doesn't need rules, doesn't need a model, but up to something lore wise.

Another element is the aspect of the fallen in general now. Do the DA carry on as they were, or does the Lion skew the interactions and hunt now (presumably not as it basically invalidate the DW and RW's main lore function).

Final question to be answered.... Are the DA and the Lion the real traitors

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm curious as to what story has been ruined here? The story where the Lion is asleep and never does nothing? Not much of a story...

main problem is simple that there is no story at all that makes people come with "now must be the time"
the Lion sleeps and the Watchers decide when the time he is needed most is coming
yet the big why is missing
what makes this minor event different from any other minor event in the past 10.000 years that the Watchers decided now he must come back

this is similar to how Captain Marvel was coming back in the MCU, as the event that got her called was "big" but Fury did not know about this, from that point of view any other big event in the previous films would have been good enough to call her is there was no possibility to know that the next one is going to be bigger

and here, if GW would have written that the Lion was woken up 5k years ago but just did not thought about revealing himself until Papa Smurf was coming back too it would have had more impact to the story than "now is the time without a reason"
also Cypher, would have been much better if the story was the Cypher finally reached the Emperor and this was the reason why the Lion is waking up, and this was always Cyphers plan as he somehow was knowing about the Sleeper and how to get him back

Daedalus81 wrote:My hope is if they keep to their commitment then the swings won't be as wild as the past.

I had that hope with 8th, and for a very short time in 9th (until the designers video preview were they said that they want those big swings)

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The whole sleeping Lion thing was obviously inspired by Arthurian legend. And you know what King Arthur never does? Wake up. The Lion is no longer space King Arthur. Now he's just another space Superman running around doing superhero stuff. Lame.

I can't wait for them to bring back Sanguinius and ruin that whole storyline too.

They did that in 1996 though. The Sanguinor has been the warp ghost of Sanguinis *wink nudge* ever since then.

I fully expect to see a new plastic centrepiece model with primarch-level rules for the Sanguinor in the near future, and that will be that.

xttz wrote:They did that in 1996 though. The Sanguinor has been the warp ghost of Sanguinis *wink nudge* ever since then.

Pretty sure the Sanguinor wasn't a thing in Codex: Angels of Death, but was a much later addition. 5th edition Codex, if memory serves.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:Final question to be answered.... Are the DA and the Lion the real traitors

That question was answered many moons ago, and has been a tiresome meme ever since then.

I had a fellow 40k try to engage me about the 40k Primarchs storyline today. Call me a jaded old man but with a world setting as riddled with inconsistencies as 40k is, the answer to any question about "Why do you think X happened" or "When will Y come back?" the answer is simply always "Whatever serves the narrative/business model."

 xttz wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The whole sleeping Lion thing was obviously inspired by Arthurian legend. And you know what King Arthur never does? Wake up. The Lion is no longer space King Arthur. Now he's just another space Superman running around doing superhero stuff. Lame.

I can't wait for them to bring back Sanguinius and ruin that whole storyline too.

They did that in 1996 though. The Sanguinor has been the warp ghost of Sanguinis *wink nudge* ever since then.

I fully expect to see a new plastic centrepiece model with primarch-level rules for the Sanguinor in the near future, and that will be that.

Sanguinor was invented by Matt Ward in the 5th ed blood angel codex in 2010. He's newer to the setting than the entire modern heresy story...

 Dysartes wrote:

Until the book comes out and people can see what the story of him returning actually is - and I'm assuming it isn't a thing in the Vashtorr-invades-The-Rock book - it seems a bit early to even be going after the lore, IMO.

its not, or at least if it happens in that time frame, its not in the Vashtorr book. I've seen some of the spoilers for it, the Lion is not mentioned at all (mostly they bitch about the unsatisfying way the plot battle is resolved by the no-context introduction of a third faction......which does not bode well).

its POSSIBLE the invasion triggers the awakening, but if it is, its not something covering in the Vashtorr book and would have to be added on as a "while this main plot was happening, no one noticed this side plot" bolt on, which feels cheap.

Doesn't Vastorr end with the DA's going "Vashtorr has fled to the Sonmium stars!" (or however you spell that) which is where a previous piece of fluff said a Fallen army was mustering under Luther?

I mean, that'll be why the Lion shows up.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Doesn't Vastorr end with the DA's going "Vashtorr has fled to the Sonmium stars!" (or however you spell that) which is where a previous piece of fluff said a Fallen army was mustering under Luther?

I mean, that'll be why the Lion shows up.

It'd be good to get a line under the fallen arc to some degree and maybe they can stop the first being a knock off alpha legion where everything is a secretive secret plot of secret things because oh the shaaammmeee.

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Doesn't Vastorr end with the DA's going "Vashtorr has fled to the Sonmium stars!" (or however you spell that) which is where a previous piece of fluff said a Fallen army was mustering under Luther?

I mean, that'll be why the Lion shows up.

It'd be good to get a line under the fallen arc to some degree and maybe they can stop the first being a knock off alpha legion where everything is a secretive secret plot of secret things because oh the shaaammmeee.

thing is, that "hidden shame" is LITERALLY the defining lore attribute for the dark angels, and has been since their inception. its going to be extremely difficult to transition off that. I wouldn't expect them to get much further than a "open secret" element of it being officially unrecognised, like the black templars numbers.

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
This was one of the most spectacular reveals of recent memory, and yet there are still people acting like it's the end of the hobby?

Was it? It's a nice model once you hide his mug under a helmet, but what's spectacular about a returning Primarch at this point? If one could have believed that GW was only going to bring back Daemon Primarchs when only Magnus was released, bringing back Girlyman removed any doubt that we had entered the second age of the Primarchs.

 kodos wrote:
what makes this minor event different from any other minor event in the past 10.000 years that the Watchers decided now he must come back

Arks of Omen is set a few years after the rift tore the galaxy and Imperium in half. Regardless of actual impact on the story, that's GW very overtly telling us that everything is different now and that going forward this singular event will be drawn on to explain all kinds of changes.

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Doesn't Vastorr end with the DA's going "Vashtorr has fled to the Sonmium stars!" (or however you spell that) which is where a previous piece of fluff said a Fallen army was mustering under Luther?

I mean, that'll be why the Lion shows up.

It'd be good to get a line under the fallen arc to some degree and maybe they can stop the first being a knock off alpha legion where everything is a secretive secret plot of secret things because oh the shaaammmeee.

Flip that - the DA background with the Fallen, etc, was detailed before the Alpha Legion went into full mustache-twirling villain mode.

 Hellebore wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The whole sleeping Lion thing was obviously inspired by Arthurian legend. And you know what King Arthur never does? Wake up. The Lion is no longer space King Arthur. Now he's just another space Superman running around doing superhero stuff. Lame.

I can't wait for them to bring back Sanguinius and ruin that whole storyline too.

They did that in 1996 though. The Sanguinor has been the warp ghost of Sanguinis *wink nudge* ever since then.

I fully expect to see a new plastic centrepiece model with primarch-level rules for the Sanguinor in the near future, and that will be that.

Sanguinor was invented by Matt Ward in the 5th ed blood angel codex in 2010. He's newer to the setting than the entire modern heresy story...

Indeed, and the reactions to hin introduction were certainly... spicy 'Dumbest name ever', 'End of the Hobby', heard it all before.

There is no use in denying it: Primarchs of all persuasions have had the possibilities of their return built-in ever since they started fleshing out their dissappearances, Primarchs sell, Primarchs will return, just like Space Marines will be getting made. It's fundamental to the core elements of the setting: the business plans and spreadsheets.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ugh, looks like they did away with the FoC and you can just take whatever you want.
Not sure I like that.
Get ready for meme-lists I guess.
"Yo dog, I heard you like Space Wolves, so I put wolves in the only wolves list so you can wolf while you wolf"

Also means that the troops tax is no longer a thing, so it's just going be a list of the best units for each army.
So instead of having to spend, I dunno, 200+ points on immortals, I can just use more destroyers, which pack a punch.

Well points might be issue anyway after max 3 dest unit taken


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
(and remember, you just needed the free core rules and the datasheets of your units to play 8th edition as well, you never "needed" anything else)

but given that this is the 10th time they try not screwing it up again, with a mid-edition design shift or "we meant something different" after releasing the first codex, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt

Of course datasheets were in index or codex behind paywalL


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
On the other hand, that's true too, though. Motivations and whatnot can't impact the greater narrative with SCs. SCs will always be who they are, and no matter how many times you put them on the small battlefields of 40k, they will have the same motivations and won't be changed by what happens.

They can lose tomorrow to Grog Dogsnot and still be the great hero of <faction>, whereas for a narrative person playing their own characters, that shameful defeat can be worked into their story.

The arguments about 'who's stronger between X & Y' is literally the only argument to have, because the players have no impact on their stories. Best to go by the advice of GW of old and accept that only bad people use SCs, and in general, no one should.

That assumes you follow the current flawed concept of "evolving storyline by gw" and not the original gw's idea "it's your sandbox, do your own stories".

We're assuming that the Lion is going to join up with the Dark Angels, you could easily keep the secret shame thread going if their new book is split into two subfactions. The Lion and his Fallen working as a "Secret Inquisition" within Nihilus vs the Chapter dedicated to hunting them and the 'pretender' down.

 Dysartes wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Doesn't Vastorr end with the DA's going "Vashtorr has fled to the Sonmium stars!" (or however you spell that) which is where a previous piece of fluff said a Fallen army was mustering under Luther?

I mean, that'll be why the Lion shows up.

It'd be good to get a line under the fallen arc to some degree and maybe they can stop the first being a knock off alpha legion where everything is a secretive secret plot of secret things because oh the shaaammmeee.

Flip that - the DA background with the Fallen, etc, was detailed before the Alpha Legion went into full mustache-twirling villain mode.

Oh I know it's part of the integral real world pun of the names etc. with The Dark Angels being a poem by Lionel Johnson about the secret shame of homosexual feelings. But it'd be nice for the Dark Angels to have plots or events that extend beyond "we're being dicks because we have secrets", maybe wear it with pride and go on a crusade of redemption etc.

Likewise the Lion of the HH books seems to have been written with a persona that's intentionally abrasive due to utilising people/situations to compartmentalised ends. Not all primarchs needs to be an inspiring leader but it might be nice for him to have a look in the mirror.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Until the book comes out and people can see what the story of him returning actually is - and I'm assuming it isn't a thing in the Vashtorr-invades-The-Rock book - it seems a bit early to even be going after the lore, IMO.

its not, or at least if it happens in that time frame, its not in the Vashtorr book. I've seen some of the spoilers for it, the Lion is not mentioned at all (mostly they bitch about the unsatisfying way the plot battle is resolved by the no-context introduction of a third faction......which does not bode well).

its POSSIBLE the invasion triggers the awakening, but if it is, its not something covering in the Vashtorr book and would have to be added on as a "while this main plot was happening, no one noticed this side plot" bolt on, which feels cheap.

He was already awake right at the very start of this whole narrative. Book 1 has Dante come across an entire destroyed fleet and space hulk that we now know was done by the Lion.

I guess that explains the whole "Dark Angels and Blood Angels are combined into an Angels of Death" rumor. It was likely just the Lion arriving with Dante to save the DA from the very obvious trap they went into

 GaroRobe wrote:
save the DA from the very obvious trap they went into

Why do people do this?

They have to bring back Loyalist Primarchs because they made the Chaos ones and you can't have Marines missing out on stuff.

 GaroRobe wrote:
I guess that explains the whole "Dark Angels and Blood Angels are combined into an Angels of Death" rumor. It was likely just the Lion arriving with Dante to save the DA from the very obvious trap they went into

Well of course they're going to join forces. They've got two new models to sell!

I wonder, does Dante keep his lofty title as Lord Regent or does Lion need to "talk" about benefits of nepotism to Guilliman?