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That assumes you follow the current flawed concept of "evolving storyline by gw" and not the original gw's idea "it's your sandbox, do your own stories".
I was wavering on making this exact same point, but it seems to be a bit of a touchy subject for some people and I was wary of triggering another argument.
I agree - The focus on personalities and ‘Epic storylines’ tied to them seems completely at odds with what I always saw as the core appeal of 40k: Endless possibilities for making your own stories, because there isn’t one ‘main storyline’, and whatever happens, you will not be missed….
The kind of thing that GW are doing now makes sense when you think they are trying to emulate some of the bigger multi media franchises with cross market appeal, but this approach has a limit, even if you like it - it rotted star wars away from the inside and it’s why marvel was/is flagging (comics vs movies, respectively), albeit continuing to make big money, even if the quality and critical reception are dropping fast.
Thing is, both of those franchises tend to turn out their best stuff when they focus on smaller stories with minor or no name characters. Similarly, I much preferred it when ‘special characters’ in 40k were just named personalities who featured in a notable campaign, rather than setting-distorting snowflake OCs with a battery of super special rules, brawling in a royal rumble style soap opera that intermittently completely impacts or even fundamentally re-writes the very fabric of the setting.
That assumes you follow the current flawed concept of "evolving storyline by gw" and not the original gw's idea "it's your sandbox, do your own stories".
I was wavering on making this exact same point, but it seems to be a bit of a touchy subject for some people and I was wary of triggering another argument.
I agree - The focus on personalities and ‘Epic storylines’ tied to them seems completely at odds with what I always saw as the core appeal of 40k: Endless possibilities for making your own stories, because there isn’t one ‘main storyline’, and whatever happens, you will not be missed….
The kind of thing that GW are doing now makes sense when you think they are trying to emulate some of the bigger multi media franchises with cross market appeal, but this approach has a limit, even if you like it - it rotted star wars away from the inside and it’s why marvel was/is flagging (comics vs movies, respectively), albeit continuing to make big money, even if the quality and critical reception are dropping fast.
Thing is, both of those franchises tend to turn out their best stuff when they focus on smaller stories with minor or no name characters. Similarly, I much preferred it when ‘special characters’ in 40k were just named personalities who featured in a notable campaign, rather than setting-distorting snowflake OCs with a battery of super special rules, brawling in a royal rumble style soap opera that intermittently completely impacts or even fundamentally re-writes the very fabric of the setting.
I second this. I am definitely in the sandbox camp.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/24 13:03:02
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
GaroRobe wrote: save the DA from the very obvious trap they went into
Why do people do this?
Because the Dark Angels themselves admit that they are very likely going into a trap by pursing Vashtorr, and decide to go anyway? And they're bringing the Rock with them to Vashtorr, which is the very thing he was trying to raid in the first place?
That assumes you follow the current flawed concept of "evolving storyline by gw" and not the original gw's idea "it's your sandbox, do your own stories".
I was wavering on making this exact same point, but it seems to be a bit of a touchy subject for some people and I was wary of triggering another argument.
I agree - The focus on personalities and ‘Epic storylines’ tied to them seems completely at odds with what I always saw as the core appeal of 40k: Endless possibilities for making your own stories, because there isn’t one ‘main storyline’, and whatever happens, you will not be missed….
The kind of thing that GW are doing now makes sense when you think they are trying to emulate some of the bigger multi media franchises with cross market appeal, but this approach has a limit, even if you like it - it rotted star wars away from the inside and it’s why marvel was/is flagging (comics vs movies, respectively), albeit continuing to make big money, even if the quality and critical reception are dropping fast.
Thing is, both of those franchises tend to turn out their best stuff when they focus on smaller stories with minor or no name characters. Similarly, I much preferred it when ‘special characters’ in 40k were just named personalities who featured in a notable campaign, rather than setting-distorting snowflake OCs with a battery of super special rules, brawling in a royal rumble style soap opera that intermittently completely impacts or even fundamentally re-writes the very fabric of the setting.
That assumes you follow the current flawed concept of "evolving storyline by gw" and not the original gw's idea "it's your sandbox, do your own stories".
I was wavering on making this exact same point, but it seems to be a bit of a touchy subject for some people and I was wary of triggering another argument. I agree - The focus on personalities and ‘Epic storylines’ tied to them seems completely at odds with what I always saw as the core appeal of 40k: Endless possibilities for making your own stories, because there isn’t one ‘main storyline’, and whatever happens, you will not be missed….
Except that hasn't been true since 3rd Ed, which HAD an evolving main storyline centered around main personalities(3rd War for Armageddon, Black 13th 1.0, Medusa V, etc.). Those endless possibilities still exist.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/24 13:29:00
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
- The dude with the two knives in the trailer is actually a special character from the Starter Box
- Everything in the trailer will get a model in the Box
- New Space Marine Veterans unit with combi weapons
- Next week more BA and DA rumours
- Space Hulk rumours also next week
- Valrak himself will be on holiday, the videos are pre-recorded, so no livestreams etc.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
" Universal special rules are back in the game – It doesn’t matter if you’re making a Dimensional Translocation or preparing Death From Below, it’s all a Deep Strike now!"
Players wanted those away, they went away. Now they are back. In couple editions away again no doubt
" Universal special rules are back in the game – It doesn’t matter if you’re making a Dimensional Translocation or preparing Death From Below, it’s all a Deep Strike now!"
Players wanted those away, they went away. Now they are back. In couple editions away again no doubt
Not necessarily true. What I don't want are LOADS of Unique Special Rules (USRs) and i definitely don't want layered USRs. For example, i can accept 'Deep Strike' being a USR so long as i don't have like a million of them to remember. What i DO NOT want is things like 'Jump Infantry' being a USR that itself then confers several other USRs.
So GW stating this is a ground up re-write of the game, makes this effectively the 5th game called Warhammer 40,000.
1st edition aka rouge trader
2nd edition (the best one)
3rd-7th edition evolution of the same game
8-9th the dumpster fire version of the game
and now 10th.
How closely are we expecting the game to be compared to the recent version, or will we see a shift back towards older concepts in terms of rules designs as hinted at by universal special rules returning.
it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it.
Tamereth wrote: So GW stating this is a ground up re-write of the game, makes this effectively the 5th game called Warhammer 40,000.
1st edition aka rouge trader
2nd edition (the best one)
3rd-7th edition evolution of the same game
8-9th the dumpster fire version of the game
and now 10th.
How closely are we expecting the game to be compared to the recent version, or will we see a shift back towards older concepts in terms of rules designs as hinted at by universal special rules returning.
You'll never hear about it from GW because they like to pretend that they're their own, independent ecosystem and nothing anybody else does will ever matter to them, but the best case you can hope for is not that they're 'taking inspiration' by looking backwards at what they have done in the past or sidewards at their own specialist games, but that they acknowledge stuff that is common wisdom in the world of game design at large. GW is succesful, but their game writing is very backwards in lots of places, both on the conceptual and on the technical level. They're clinging to a lot of hidebound conventions that wargaming at large has long since abandoned, and every edition of 40k since ~4th has been them kicking and screaming against being dragged to the 21st century
The short answer is yes! Ultimately the Warhammer Design Studio decided that having the same special rule under a dozen or more separate faction names had become a bit of a barrier to the smooth running of the game – not least because many players simply referred to them by a single name anyway, such as Deep Strike and Feel No Pain.
Do Vehicle and Monster profiles still degrade as they take damage?
More or less, though the mechanic has been streamlined. Instead of three separate profiles, there’s a single line on each unit card that still acts like this and explains any penalties incurred when a certain Wounds threshold is reached. More on this soon.
So if the rumor that everything in the trailer is getting a model in the starter box is true, that's.....quite a lot.
Just on one watch I saw (and I'm sure I'm mislabeling a few things):
-Terminator Librarian
-Terminator Captain
-Phobos Character
-Combi-Weapon Heavy Intercessors (veterans?)
-Heavy Support Redemptor
-Aggressor Apothecary
-Terminators
-Carnifex
-Lictor
-Artillery Bug
-Ymgrl Big Bug
-Flying Warrior
-Floaty Brain bug
-Guants of both varieties
I mean, that would easily be the largest launch box ever, right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/24 14:56:13
The changes to degrading profiles was interesting. I didn't really consider this to be complex. It was pretty much all there and would've fit on to the new data sheets. Wonder how they are doing it in the new world.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: The changes to degrading profiles was interesting. I didn't really consider this to be complex. It was pretty much all there and would've fit on to the new data sheets. Wonder how they are doing it in the new world.
Well sounded it's like: For every X wounds -1 to stats X, Y and Z.
But we'll see. It seems more of presentational change rather than huge change to result.
Speculating about the starter box and the combat patrol game mode. Would be too sensible if the starter box contained two valid Combat Patrol forces, one for Space Marines and one for Tyranids.
After all it is a starter box and the Combat Patrol game mode is supposed to be for beginners. Finally a starter box where the two included armies are balanced against each other?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/24 15:02:49
godswildcard wrote: So if the rumor that everything in the trailer is getting a model in the starter box is true, that's.....quite a lot.
Just on one watch I saw (and I'm sure I'm mislabeling a few things):
-Terminator Librarian
-Terminator Captain
-Phobos Character
-Combi-Weapon Heavy Intercessors (veterans?)
-Heavy Support Redemptor
-Aggressor Apothecary
-Terminators
-Carnifex
-Lictor
-Artillery Bug
-Ymgrl Big Bug
-Flying Warrior
-Floaty Brain bug
-Guants of both varieties
I mean, that would easily be the largest launch box ever, right?
Actually i misheard/mistranscribed and it was only said that everything in the trailer will get a model but not necessarily in the box. If you subtract e.g. the Dreadnought and the artillery bugs it seems much more in line with other boxed sets.
godswildcard wrote: So if the rumor that everything in the trailer is getting a model in the starter box is true, that's.....quite a lot.
Just on one watch I saw (and I'm sure I'm mislabeling a few things):
-Terminator Librarian
-Terminator Captain
-Phobos Character
-Combi-Weapon Heavy Intercessors (veterans?)
-Heavy Support Redemptor
-Aggressor Apothecary
-Terminators
-Carnifex
-Lictor
-Artillery Bug
-Ymgrl Big Bug
-Flying Warrior
-Floaty Brain bug
-Guants of both varieties
I mean, that would easily be the largest launch box ever, right?
Actually i misheard/mistranscribed and it was only said that everything in the trailer will get a model but not necessarily in the box. If you subtract e.g. the Dreadnought and the artillery bugs it seems much more in line with other boxed sets.
Gotcha. That makes a lot more sense. Here's hoping the box won't be $300...but I wouldn't put it past GW.
godswildcard wrote: So if the rumor that everything in the trailer is getting a model in the starter box is true, that's.....quite a lot.
Just on one watch I saw (and I'm sure I'm mislabeling a few things):
-Terminator Librarian
-Terminator Captain
-Phobos Character
-Combi-Weapon Heavy Intercessors (veterans?)
-Heavy Support Redemptor
-Aggressor Apothecary
-Terminators
-Carnifex
-Lictor
-Artillery Bug
-Ymgrl Big Bug
-Flying Warrior
-Floaty Brain bug
-Guants of both varieties
I mean, that would easily be the largest launch box ever, right?
It's likely an Indomitus deal, where only the LE box gets all the stuff and the standard ones are cut down and lose all the cool stuff. There was a lot of stuff in the Indomitus box (61 figures including a couple of larger ones).
Necronmaniac05 wrote: The changes to degrading profiles was interesting. I didn't really consider this to be complex. It was pretty much all there and would've fit on to the new data sheets. Wonder how they are doing it in the new world.
Its not really complexity, its a matter of formatting and layout on the new data cards. Something that degraded in BS & WS would now have to have three profiles for each and every weapon, in sequence. That's both confusing and ugly, and depending on the unit (thinking knights or primaris tanks with their ~10 weapon systems), there just isn't space for that. It gets even worse if movement also degrades, as that becomes multiple entries up top as well.
From a usability/readability perspective, they had to handle it a different way once they broke BS, WS and S away from the main profile.
On the upside, things like powerfists (that had a -1 to hit) can now just be WS4+ (or 3+ on characters) and S8 rather than floating modifiers. The gross stupidity of tyranid talons in the current codex and their dozen different ways of affecting statlines can also go away. No more dumb debates about multiple weapons adding +1 attack or +1 attack each, either - those weapons can just have X attacks.
Now, I've gotta go plan a 'welcome back' party for USRs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/24 15:25:47
Tamereth wrote: So GW stating this is a ground up re-write of the game, makes this effectively the 5th game called Warhammer 40,000.
1st edition aka rouge trader
2nd edition (the best one)
3rd-7th edition evolution of the same game
8-9th the dumpster fire version of the game
and now 10th.
How closely are we expecting the game to be compared to the recent version, or will we see a shift back towards older concepts in terms of rules designs as hinted at by universal special rules returning.
Oh how nostalgia is a cruel mistress that gilds the past and tricks one into hating the future.
This is 8th edition carried forward. I highly doubt you'll be getting vehicle facings, templates, or WS tables back.
What makes 8th edition?
Stratagems, Command Phase, Traits, vehicles with wounds, unbound characteristics, and a more elaborate mission set. All these items are still present. 'OC' is just objective secured but simpler. WS/BS on weapons changes effectiveness, but not the game itself.
Morale and cover are probably the systems that will see the most change.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/03/24 15:41:58
StraightSilver wrote: I've just realised I won't be able to use FirstBorn Marines in Combat Patrol, because all the sets are Primaris...
First World problem I know, but I don't want to play Primaris....
Eh. Once it drops, figure out what the average point value is among the 5? 6? space marine combat patrols and build a similar model count force out a character, tactical squad, rhino and assault squad or terminators.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/24 15:42:43
StraightSilver wrote: I've just realised I won't be able to use FirstBorn Marines in Combat Patrol, because all the sets are Primaris...
First World problem I know, but I don't want to play Primaris....
Eh. Once it drops, figure out what the average point value is among the 5? 6? space marine combat patrols and build a similar model count force out a character, tactical squad, rhino and assault squad or terminators.
Strong indications that combat patrol forces will have different rules to those of the main game looking at the termagants, so might not be that simple.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/24 15:45:18
Strong indications that combat patrol forces will have different rules to those of the main game looking at the termagants, so might not be that simple.
That article today was harping on about how they used their 'game designer genius' to balance the combat patrols, so i guess that that 'genius' boils down to different datasheets with additional abilities and weapons for the patrols with bad units in them...
godswildcard wrote: So if the rumor that everything in the trailer is getting a model in the starter box is true, that's.....quite a lot.
Just on one watch I saw (and I'm sure I'm mislabeling a few things): -Terminator Librarian -Terminator Captain -Phobos Character -Combi-Weapon Heavy Intercessors (veterans?) -Heavy Support Redemptor -Aggressor Apothecary -Terminators
-Carnifex -Lictor -Artillery Bug -Ymgrl Big Bug -Flying Warrior -Floaty Brain bug -Guants of both varieties
I mean, that would easily be the largest launch box ever, right?
Those combi-weapon dudes aren't heavy intercessors, they're standard MkX. My money is on them being Sternguard based on the adornments (backpack thing, Mk7/8 helmet on another) and first company markings.
We won't be getting everything in that list for the starter, however.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/24 15:53:19
