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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We’ll need to wait and see.

It does however suggest a raft of Lieutenant equivalent units for other armies though.

This is my thoughts too. Necrons and certainly Tau kinda struggle for characters at that sort of lieutenant level but perhaps the Despotek and Apprentek from the Kill Team box will see solo releases for the Necrons which would give them:

Overlords
Lords
Technomancers
Plasmancers
Chronomancers
Apprenteks
Despoteks
Royal Wardens

Which is a bit better in terms of choices.

Dudeface wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 xttz wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Oh boy, I can't wait for it to be that only Terminator characters can join Terminator units!

Why is that bad?

I'd guess because it comes across as both arbitrary nonsense and pointlessly quashing options.

If a non-Terminator Captain tries to join a Terminator squad, will they beast him to death? Bully him until he runs away crying? Threaten to tell the Inquisitor that he was mean?

If a none terminator captain joins a terminator squad, would it ruin the theorised role and purpose of the unit by forcing them to footslog across the board? I can see land raiders as the head scratcher there. Tbh I can see why it doesn't make perfect sense but I can see it as a reasonable balance/variable reduction choice.

Even with Deep Strike and Charge, footslogging can be a choice the player might want to make for varying reasons. The Primaris Lt. is proof GW will make these arbitrary restrictions for no real reason besides the fact that's the way they play.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 xttz wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Oh boy, I can't wait for it to be that only Terminator characters can join Terminator units!

Why is that bad?

I'd guess because it comes across as both arbitrary nonsense and pointlessly quashing options.

If a non-Terminator Captain tries to join a Terminator squad, will they beast him to death? Bully him until he runs away crying? Threaten to tell the Inquisitor that he was mean?

If a none terminator captain joins a terminator squad, would it ruin the theorised role and purpose of the unit by forcing them to footslog across the board? I can see land raiders as the head scratcher there. Tbh I can see why it doesn't make perfect sense but I can see it as a reasonable balance/variable reduction choice.

Even with Deep Strike and Charge, footslogging can be a choice the player might want to make for varying reasons. The Primaris Lt. is proof GW will make these arbitrary restrictions for no real reason besides the fact that's the way they play.

I think that expertly highlights the thought process behind this: this is how they want you to use these models in game. It is that simple, they seem to have finished trying to let people forget gear own narrative at last and are just telling people "no, this is how these work and interact". It might not be what people want, it might not even be a good choice, but I'll doff my cap on them taking a stronger clearer stance on conveying how they see units working and preventing odd interactions.

Extra props to GW for designing leader rules that make you want to take a large unit instead of going MSU to get the most out of them.

These rules remind me of the old 3rd edition Bodyguard units that you purchased during unit creation and couldn’t leave.

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 xttz wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Oh boy, I can't wait for it to be that only Terminator characters can join Terminator units!

Why is that bad?

I'd guess because it comes across as both arbitrary nonsense and pointlessly quashing options.

If a non-Terminator Captain tries to join a Terminator squad, will they beast him to death? Bully him until he runs away crying? Threaten to tell the Inquisitor that he was mean?

If a none terminator captain joins a terminator squad, would it ruin the theorised role and purpose of the unit by forcing them to footslog across the board? I can see land raiders as the head scratcher there. Tbh I can see why it doesn't make perfect sense but I can see it as a reasonable balance/variable reduction choice.

Even with Deep Strike and Charge, footslogging can be a choice the player might want to make for varying reasons. The Primaris Lt. is proof GW will make these arbitrary restrictions for no real reason besides the fact that's the way they play.

I think that expertly highlights the thought process behind this: this is how they want you to use these models in game. It is that simple, they seem to have finished trying to let people forget gear own narrative at last and are just telling people "no, this is how these work and interact". It might not be what people want, it might not even be a good choice, but I'll doff my cap on them taking a stronger clearer stance on conveying how they see units working and preventing odd interactions.

Gonna disagree here. So far, and whilst a lot remains to be revealed, 10th Ed appears to be pretty free form in terms of army selection. No more fixed slots, limited instead by what will be Battleline - and it seems Detachments May define those, as well as specifying units that can comprise it.

Here, we see another, potential, limitation as a way to encourage some sort of theming. Certainly I’d argue the boosts a Lt brings to Intercessors (especially the ones with Assault Bolt Rifles) is appealing for making your scoring units as effective as possible in terms of offence. By limiting which character can join which unit, it seems unlikely you can just spam the lowest costed character into higher pointed units to spread that benefit as far as possible.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 xttz wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Oh boy, I can't wait for it to be that only Terminator characters can join Terminator units!

Why is that bad?

I'd guess because it comes across as both arbitrary nonsense and pointlessly quashing options.

If a non-Terminator Captain tries to join a Terminator squad, will they beast him to death? Bully him until he runs away crying? Threaten to tell the Inquisitor that he was mean?

If a none terminator captain joins a terminator squad, would it ruin the theorised role and purpose of the unit by forcing them to footslog across the board? I can see land raiders as the head scratcher there. Tbh I can see why it doesn't make perfect sense but I can see it as a reasonable balance/variable reduction choice.

Even with Deep Strike and Charge, footslogging can be a choice the player might want to make for varying reasons. The Primaris Lt. is proof GW will make these arbitrary restrictions for no real reason besides the fact that's the way they play.

I think that expertly highlights the thought process behind this: this is how they want you to use these models in game. It is that simple, they seem to have finished trying to let people forget gear own narrative at last and are just telling people "no, this is how these work and interact". It might not be what people want, it might not even be a good choice, but I'll doff my cap on them taking a stronger clearer stance on conveying how they see units working and preventing odd interactions.

Gonna disagree here. So far, and whilst a lot remains to be revealed, 10th Ed appears to be pretty free form in terms of army selection. No more fixed slots, limited instead by what will be Battleline - and it seems Detachments May define those, as well as specifying units that can comprise it.

Here, we see another, potential, limitation as a way to encourage some sort of theming. Certainly I’d argue the boosts a Lt brings to Intercessors (especially the ones with Assault Bolt Rifles) is appealing for making your scoring units as effective as possible in terms of offence. By limiting which character can join which unit, it seems unlikely you can just spam the lowest costed character into higher pointed units to spread that benefit as far as possible.

I'm sorry, maybe I didn't word it well or I'm misreading the response but I don't think we disagree. From a holistic perspective then yes there's more freedom than ever in army construction, however I agree with you here that the artificial theme induction via these characters is both a slight balancing mechanism and also they've very clearly shown "we want tactical terminators to deepstrike, not be slowed down with modifiers and be a tight nugget of resistance and we we want terminators only to do that" to my eyes. Which is both theme limiting but also stripping legacy character attachment options.

By allowing non-terminators to join terminators you suddenly need a bunch of extra rules to handle deepstrike and their teleport homer. It just doesn't make sense.

 vipoid wrote:

 xttz wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Oh boy, I can't wait for it to be that only Terminator characters can join Terminator units!

Why is that bad?

I'd guess because it comes across as both arbitrary nonsense and pointlessly quashing options.

If a non-Terminator Captain tries to join a Terminator squad, will they beast him to death? Bully him until he runs away crying? Threaten to tell the Inquisitor that he was mean?

Stops soaking up damage at least. That was one major problem in 7th and before with super tough characters tanking every hit(except the ones that are legit danger)

Not really, just have it that all models in unit must have the ability, or they can’t deepstrike.
Would be silly for a DA Inner Circle character not have the ability to join some Inner Circle terminators

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Urgh, they're also setting themselves up for future pain - anytime they release a new unit, as well as the new unit datasheet they will also now have to update all the leaders in the faction to identify which leader models can join that particular unit - fun indeed :/

First World Space Marine problems

It's an absolutely dumb way to handle this, when they have freaking keywords right there... there is absolutely no reason to enumerate the joinable units.

That would add more units they can join though adding more ways to break things. Same rule isn't as valuable to every unit.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
By allowing non-terminators to join terminators you suddenly need a bunch of extra rules to handle deepstrike and their teleport homer. It just doesn't make sense.

I wonder how Space Wolves and Iron Hands were even playable armies in the past were one of the "features" were Troop Leaders in Terminator Armour

tneva82 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 xttz wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Oh boy, I can't wait for it to be that only Terminator characters can join Terminator units!

Why is that bad?

I'd guess because it comes across as both arbitrary nonsense and pointlessly quashing options.

If a non-Terminator Captain tries to join a Terminator squad, will they beast him to death? Bully him until he runs away crying? Threaten to tell the Inquisitor that he was mean?

Stops soaking up damage at least. That was one major problem in 7th and before with super tough characters tanking every hit(except the ones that are legit danger)

Because a guy in Power Armor or Artificer Armor soaking damage is bad compared to the Terminator Captain with a 2+ soaking damage?

Your comment makes so little sense to the point I'm impressed.

tneva82 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Urgh, they're also setting themselves up for future pain - anytime they release a new unit, as well as the new unit datasheet they will also now have to update all the leaders in the faction to identify which leader models can join that particular unit - fun indeed :/

First World Space Marine problems

It's an absolutely dumb way to handle this, when they have freaking keywords right there... there is absolutely no reason to enumerate the joinable units.

That would add more units they can join though adding more ways to break things. Same rule isn't as valuable to every unit.

How? You can literally invent another keyword like 'Astartes bonkulus' that all, and only, the units that are enumerated on this list have, and have 'Can join any Astartes bonkulus unit' instead of the list. Then, if you release new units, you can decide if they are Astartes bonkulus or not, without re-touching every Lieutenant entry etc.

Slightly off topic for the current commentary, but I’m just trying to wrap my head around the number of data sheets that have to be dropped on day one of this new edition. No question that there will be some errors or overly powerful combinations.

 bullyboy wrote:
Not really, just have it that all models in unit must have the ability, or they can’t deepstrike.
Would be silly for a DA Inner Circle character not have the ability to join some Inner Circle terminators

It's almost as though a special rule that was universal could fix such an issue.

Tsagualsa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Urgh, they're also setting themselves up for future pain - anytime they release a new unit, as well as the new unit datasheet they will also now have to update all the leaders in the faction to identify which leader models can join that particular unit - fun indeed :/

First World Space Marine problems

It's an absolutely dumb way to handle this, when they have freaking keywords right there... there is absolutely no reason to enumerate the joinable units.

That would add more units they can join though adding more ways to break things. Same rule isn't as valuable to every unit.

How? You can literally invent another keyword like 'Astartes bonkulus' that all, and only, the units that are enumerated on this list have, and have 'Can join any Astartes bonkulus unit' instead of the list. Then, if you release new units, you can decide if they are Astartes bonkulus or not, without re-touching every Lieutenant entry etc.

It certainly seems more straightforward to just list the units it can join. It's quite rare for units to be added to the game between Codexes, and almost unheard of for any army other than Space Marines.

I'm sure this system will annoy me when some obvious combo of characters isn't permitted - but "terminators have to group up with terminators" wouldn't be one of them.

From a mechanical perspective it gives them reasonable control rather than having to worry about how rule X might interacts with every unit they put in the book.

The fact they join before the battle and can't leave makes these characters more like optional unit buffs. That's a big change from the current system but is potentially where a lot of them should have been.

Tsagualsa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Urgh, they're also setting themselves up for future pain - anytime they release a new unit, as well as the new unit datasheet they will also now have to update all the leaders in the faction to identify which leader models can join that particular unit - fun indeed :/

First World Space Marine problems

It's an absolutely dumb way to handle this, when they have freaking keywords right there... there is absolutely no reason to enumerate the joinable units.

That would add more units they can join though adding more ways to break things. Same rule isn't as valuable to every unit.

How? You can literally invent another keyword like 'Astartes bonkulus' that all, and only, the units that are enumerated on this list have, and have 'Can join any Astartes bonkulus unit' instead of the list. Then, if you release new units, you can decide if they are Astartes bonkulus or not, without re-touching every Lieutenant entry etc.

You don't even need another Keyword. Universal Special Rules fix the issue via "If every model in the unit has this rule". It's literally that simple.

Since you attach characters to units before the game, surely that reflects what happens 'in universe' as well. If Captain Bob is planning to go rolling into battle alongside his Tactical Dreadnoight bros, he's surely going to don his own Terminator armour to join them.

The restrictions on units seems like it should prevent some of the corner cases of prior editions. Like when a capheracti terminator captain with “slow and purposeful” could attach to a devastator squad to let them move and fire (which was not allowed in that edition)

The list seems like a kludgy fix, but it could be they wanted more restrictions then just armor type. But the keyword system is right there…

 Nevelon wrote:
The restrictions on units seems like it should prevent some of the corner cases of prior editions. Like when a capheracti terminator captain with “slow and purposeful” could attach to a devastator squad to let them move and fire

Yes because that was terribly broken and being done by everyone

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh boy, I can't wait for it to be that only Terminator characters can join Terminator units!

It's a valid complaint, but it would look weird to have skinny bois in with the beefy bois. Also, it allows for more distinct abilities for different units -- potentially, anyway

This kinda takes care of the mixed save/toughness issues previously discussed

 bullyboy wrote:
Not really, just have it that all models in unit must have the ability, or they can’t deepstrike.
Would be silly for a DA Inner Circle character not have the ability to join some Inner Circle terminators

What happens when you have someone who can DS like a Beatstick Jump Pack and you put them in with terminators and suddenly get to place the unit in response to enemy movement? And if they wanted a stratagem targeting a unit with the JUMP PACK or TERMINATOR keyword(s)?

Mixed toughness
Mixed moves / move types
Mixed saves

All things that don't need a solution with this.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The restrictions on units seems like it should prevent some of the corner cases of prior editions. Like when a capheracti terminator captain with “slow and purposeful” could attach to a devastator squad to let them move and fire

Yes because that was terribly broken and being done by everyone

I’m simply listing it as an example of what happens when you have characters with special rules join units that GW didn’t necessarily have in mind when they handed out those special rules.

6th and 7th had a number of deathstar builds where multiple characters overlapped multiple rules to make for some very nasty broken things. Putting a cap of who can join what units and how many characters can hang out together should curb that back.

 Nevelon wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The restrictions on units seems like it should prevent some of the corner cases of prior editions. Like when a capheracti terminator captain with “slow and purposeful” could attach to a devastator squad to let them move and fire

Yes because that was terribly broken and being done by everyone

I’m simply listing it as an example of what happens when you have characters with special rules join units that GW didn’t necessarily have in mind when they handed out those special rules.

How was it not intended? They did Slow and Purposeful instead of Relentless for a reason.

Pretty pleased. Not always the most elegant solution but I'll take explicit and reducing the unexamined corner-case interactions over perfect.

Also a smaller set of bonuses limited to <this squad they're leading>. That's pretty fantastic.

Looking forward to the tank article! They mention a level of awareness of the toughness problem that I didn't expect from them.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh boy, I can't wait for it to be that only Terminator characters can join Terminator units!

It's a valid complaint, but it would look weird to have skinny bois in with the beefy bois. Also, it allows for more distinct abilities for different units -- potentially, anyway

This kinda takes care of the mixed save/toughness issues previously discussed

It'll still have to be addressed in other armies for Repentia/Superior, Gretchin/Runtherd, Aberrants/Biophagus and other combinations mixing Sv and T values that are almost certain to exist in 10th.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Not really, just have it that all models in unit must have the ability, or they can’t deepstrike.
Would be silly for a DA Inner Circle character not have the ability to join some Inner Circle terminators

What happens when you have someone who can DS like a Beatstick Jump Pack and you put them in with terminators and suddenly get to place the unit in response to enemy movement? And if they wanted a stratagem targeting a unit with the JUMP PACK or TERMINATOR keyword(s)?

Then the models without those keywords don't benefit.

Wow that was easy.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The restrictions on units seems like it should prevent some of the corner cases of prior editions. Like when a capheracti terminator captain with “slow and purposeful” could attach to a devastator squad to let them move and fire

Yes because that was terribly broken and being done by everyone

I’m simply listing it as an example of what happens when you have characters with special rules join units that GW didn’t necessarily have in mind when they handed out those special rules.

How was it not intended? They did Slow and Purposeful instead of Relentless for a reason.

Because they did different things...

 Asmodai wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh boy, I can't wait for it to be that only Terminator characters can join Terminator units!

It's a valid complaint, but it would look weird to have skinny bois in with the beefy bois. Also, it allows for more distinct abilities for different units -- potentially, anyway

This kinda takes care of the mixed save/toughness issues previously discussed

It'll still have to be addressed in other armies for Repentia/Superior, Gretchin/Runtherd, Aberrants/Biophagus and other combinations mixing Sv and T values that are almost certain to exist in 10th.

Pretty sure Lone Operative (Repentia), Lone Operative (Gretchin) and Lone Operative (Aberrants) solves the problem you're looking for.
They might take a different option, and it kinda sucks because being within 12" before shooting isn't a problem for a lot of stuff, but it strikes me as more likely than GW successfully trying to 'solve' mixed T/Saves units (but for real this time!). Especially in the 'simplified' edition.