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 Platuan4th wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I doubt Exarchs will be "character leaders", since that would require stripping them out of the unit boxes.

Squig Hog Rider box say otherwise.

Cadian Sergeant says otherwise too, going by that metric. No shared parts with the basic trooper.

Should Sergeants be character leaders too?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
By allowing non-terminators to join terminators you suddenly need a bunch of extra rules to handle deepstrike and their teleport homer. It just doesn't make sense.

A bunch? "The unit may only Deep Strike if all models in the unit have the Deep Strike rule".

Phwar! That was hard!

And what if you're not Deep Striking? Land Raiders are still a thing.

Much like with EP above you've oversimplified it with an incomplete picture. We've no idea how the keywords interact for the combined unit, for example, does the entire unit count as if they have fly if joined by a jump pack character. Do the unit rules overlap, I.e. do the terminator sheet special rules then apply to attached character etc.

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
By allowing non-terminators to join terminators you suddenly need a bunch of extra rules to handle deepstrike and their teleport homer. It just doesn't make sense.

A bunch? "The unit may only Deep Strike if all models in the unit have the Deep Strike rule".

Phwar! That was hard!

And what if you're not Deep Striking? Land Raiders are still a thing.

Much like with EP above you've oversimplified it with an incomplete picture. We've no idea how the keywords interact for the combined unit, for example, does the entire unit count as if they have fly if joined by a jump pack character. Do the unit rules overlap, I.e. do the terminator sheet special rules then apply to attached character etc.

You can literally write the Strats and various rules depending if models have the keyword or the unit in general. This isn't rocket science, hence why I was able to quickly answer the incredibly difficult question about a 3D6" charge for a Jump Pack unit vs models.

Why would a jump pack guy want to lead a squad of foot-sloggers anyway, slowing him down? That would be like having an infantry wizard joining a unit of knights in WFB. There are things you could do, that no-one would ever want to do anyway.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I doubt Exarchs will be "character leaders", since that would require stripping them out of the unit boxes.

No, it would not. Especially if they're limited to their own squad type. See Ogryns (separate bodyguard in this case),

Ogryn are now part of the Command Squad for Guard characters or attached to a single character to create a unit.

and multiple Imperial Guard command squads (in particular, since they've been doing character + separate squad for the duration of 8th/9th)

Except this isn't correct. Guard Command Squads are now all back to their pre-8th iteration. Exception is for the Commandant keyworded models(Castellans, DKoK Marshal, and Colonel Straken).

You're (purposely, I suspect) missing the point. I don't care about the five-minute lifespan 9th edition codex. The boxes work as a commander + a separate squad or just a squad with a commander. They don't need to be 'stripped out.' The fact that they just switched back to the old organization and ditched the separate commander and it works with the both the old Cadian & Catachan command boxes and the new boxes rather proves that

And honestly with the warlock box, GW did something even weirder, the two model unit that can be an even larger unit or characters.

Add in the fact that most of the aspect warriors still need plastic kits, and they've got plenty of options to do a better job with Exarchs.

Yes, but that means redoing kits that are relatively new or just sucking it up and admitting that certain units should always be built at "unit box-1" size.

I have no idea why you believe the things you do. All the new aspect kits have hats and weapons for the kit to have an exarch or a normal squaddie filling the last slot.

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
By allowing non-terminators to join terminators you suddenly need a bunch of extra rules to handle deepstrike and their teleport homer. It just doesn't make sense.

A bunch? "The unit may only Deep Strike if all models in the unit have the Deep Strike rule".

Phwar! That was hard!

And what if you're not Deep Striking? Land Raiders are still a thing.

Much like with EP above you've oversimplified it with an incomplete picture. We've no idea how the keywords interact for the combined unit, for example, does the entire unit count as if they have fly if joined by a jump pack character. Do the unit rules overlap, I.e. do the terminator sheet special rules then apply to attached character etc.

Characters can only join certain units, what makes you think this will even become an issue? A primaris lieutenant already can't join anything with fly or jumppacks. There's no reason to think that a character with a Jumppack will be able to join a unit without them OR vice-versa.

Voss wrote:

You're (purposely, I suspect) missing the point. I don't care about the five-minute lifespan 9th edition codex. The boxes work as a commander + a separate squad or just a squad with a commander. They don't need to be 'stripped out.' The fact that they just switched back to the old organization and ditched the separate commander and it works with the both the old Cadian & Catachan command boxes and the new boxes rather proves that

Because those boxes are made to be command squads. The Cadian Command Squad is even more restrictive than you seem to be understanding, given that you're locked into three specific builds from the outset. You have to build the Master Vox, you have to build the Medic, and you have to build the Commander using that specific weird robed body.

And honestly with the warlock box, GW did something even weirder, the two model unit that can be an even larger unit or characters.

Add in the fact that most of the aspect warriors still need plastic kits, and they've got plenty of options to do a better job with Exarchs.

Yes, but that means redoing kits that are relatively new or just sucking it up and admitting that certain units should always be built at "unit box-1" size.

I have no idea why you believe the things you do. All the new aspect kits have hats and weapons for the kit to have an exarch or a normal squaddie filling the last slot.

And that's why I said what I said.

If you're going to let the Exarch be an independent character from the unit? You need to accept a unit size that steps down by 1 for each squad and bloat in the form of Exarchs being made into an "optional but not really optional" unit attachment.

The Smasha Squig Nob mentioned by Platuan4th is a separate unit choice to the Squighog Boyz but also doesn't use any parts from the Squighog Boyz. It's a model that could 100% have been released separately.

Or, or, or... and hear me out...

They specifically make the datasheets such that you wouldn't be able to attach squads that way anyway.

We see that in the Lieutenant already. They can join intercessors, but can't join Inceptors.

A captain can join Bladeguard, but if he's not the terminator variant, he can't join Terminators.

ooooo-eee we are cooking with gas now.

It seems that lots of “Tyranid” stuff dropping in June. June 24th is the best guess for 10th release. Aliens Dark Descent releases Tuesday June 20th, & the same company that does that has Space Marine 2 coming out 2023 (Best Buy slipped and had July but took it off days later). I think it’s safe to say June is the month!

Dudeface wrote:
Much like with EP above you've oversimplified it with an incomplete picture. We've no idea how the keywords interact for the combined unit, for example, does the entire unit count as if they have fly if joined by a jump pack character. Do the unit rules overlap, I.e. do the terminator sheet special rules then apply to attached character etc.

"All models in a unit must have the Deep Strike rule in order to use it" isn't oversimplifying things. If anything, you're over-complicating it with all your talk about overlapping rules and "fly" and other such stuff.

drbored wrote:
They specifically make the datasheets such that you wouldn't be able to attach squads that way anyway.

A captain can join Bladeguard, but if he's not the terminator variant, he can't join Terminators.

Yeah we know. The discussion is over how limiting that could be.

Why can't a non-Terminator Captain lead a bunch of Terminators? Some suggested that it would cause issues with the Deep Strike rule*, but what if you're not Deep Striking them? What if you want to have your Captain lead a Terminator charge from a Land Raider Crusader?


*I say it shouldn't - All units must share the same deployment rule in order to use it solves that problem

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Much like with EP above you've oversimplified it with an incomplete picture. We've no idea how the keywords interact for the combined unit, for example, does the entire unit count as if they have fly if joined by a jump pack character. Do the unit rules overlap, I.e. do the terminator sheet special rules then apply to attached character etc.

"All models in a unit must have the Deep Strike rule in order to use it" isn't oversimplifying things. If anything, you're over-complicating it with all your talk about overlapping rules and "fly" and other such stuff.

drbored wrote:
They specifically make the datasheets such that you wouldn't be able to attach squads that way anyway.

A captain can join Bladeguard, but if he's not the terminator variant, he can't join Terminators.

Yeah we know. The discussion is over how limiting that could be.

Why can't a non-Terminator Captain lead a bunch of Terminators? Some suggested that it would cause issues with the Deep Strike rule*, but what if you're not Deep Striking them? What if you want to have your Captain lead a Terminator charge from a Land Raider Crusader?


*I say it shouldn't - All units must share the same deployment rule in order to use it solves that problem

Yeah it's literally not a problem when you're bringing back USR to begin with and you can choose what abilities are per model and which are per unit.

Hey Dudeface how's that interaction with a Captain + the new Artificer Armor when attached to any squad? Is it SUPER CONFUSING?

Came here to say how funny it is to see newbies (started in 8th-9th) on my local forum having a complete meltdown over attached character rules, and I see it's no better with some veterans

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I doubt Exarchs will be "character leaders", since that would require stripping them out of the unit boxes.

Squig Hog Rider box say otherwise.

Cadian Sergeant says otherwise too, going by that metric. No shared parts with the basic trooper.

Should Sergeants be character leaders too?

Biggest one for me is the Harlequin troupe leader which comes in the Harlequin box.

The simplest thing they could do is make the minimum squad size 4 and have the exarch character. You can still build them as a normal trooper anyway, so you can have a 5 person squad. Or you can have a 4 person squad and an exarch that joins them.

New character rules look simple to use and pretty good, I like. However I get the point many are trying to make that it is potentially going to be infuriating to have arbitrary restrictions placed on this new take on characters joining units.

GW: New Terminators can be both Firstborn and Primaris *wink wink*
Also GW: Primaris Lieutenant can only join Primaris units. And only if they have matching outfits.

This will be especially pronounced in factions where there are outlier units - will a Deathwatch Watchmaster be able to attach to a Primaris Killteam? Will a Beastsnagga Painboss be able to attach to anything (faster than normal infantry, slower than cavalry)? Too early to tell of course, but restrictions exist where you could easily not have any.

 Hellebore wrote:
Biggest one for me is the Harlequin troupe leader which comes in the Harlequin box.

The simplest thing they could do is make the minimum squad size 4 and have the exarch character. You can still build them as a normal trooper anyway, so you can have a 5 person squad. Or you can have a 4 person squad and an exarch that joins them.

The Troupe Leader exists as a separate choice because GW tried to make an entire faction out of 3 kits and 2 (later 3) character models. They could introduce a "Great Harlequin" HQ choice and let the Troupe Leader go back to being a sergeant. Unfortunately the last time Harlis got a new model it was for Imperial armies only.

It and the Sqighog Nob should go back to beiung/change into in-unit characters, and Sergeants (and their equivalents) neither should nor need to be changed into separate units.

Thinking about it more, they could do some rad things with the exarchs using these rules.

Take the current system, where exarch powers increase stats.

You can have the minor lieutenant equivalent character exarch that joins their aspect.

Or you can upgrade them to a menshad korum with powers and stats but they become a lone operative, no longer interested in teaching, only pursuing war to perfection.

That's really cool and requires no miniature changes at all. Although I'd love some exarch character models.

Yeah. Please no parting out of current unit champions to indie characters, only for them to be deployed in the unit any way.

That being said? An Exarch IC a step above regular Exarchs would be palatable to me. I mean, Eldar live a long, long time. And an Aspect Warrior can become trapped on the path surprisingly quickly. So surely there’d be degrees of Exarch, with the Phoenix Lords being the pinnacle.

I just can't bother to be concerned about such things until we see the full rules.

If people want to attach anything to anything, 30k exists and is fantastic and has rules for creating wonky death stars of all shapes and sizes. Want a techmarine and apothecary and chaplain and champion and praetor all attached to a veteran squad where every model has a different loadout? Go for it.

In 40k we may see more instances of 'conditional lone hunter' rules, like they suggested for Iron Father Feirros (and likely other techmarines and their equivalents).

Certain units that no longer have their bodyguard may get a conditional lone hunter ability by being close to other things, such as terminators even if they don't have terminator armor.

Or they do exactly as HBMC says and just turn off certain abilities unless the leader has the same ability as the squad and vice versus. I'm not a fan of that because... well, just look at how they have to word the Independent Character rule in 30k. It's not elegant. It works, but it's a big fat rule.

So basically that's the situation.

Either they introduce some limits and people complain
or they do away with limits only to put in other limits and people complain
or they do away with all limits and people complain

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah. Please no parting out of current unit champions to indie characters, only for them to be deployed in the unit any way.

That being said? An Exarch IC a step above regular Exarchs would be palatable to me. I mean, Eldar live a long, long time. And an Aspect Warrior can become trapped on the path surprisingly quickly. So surely there’d be degrees of Exarch, with the Phoenix Lords being the pinnacle.

Mechanically the only difference would be that the exarch can't be targeted until the unit is killed and I imagine doesn't count as being part of under strength unit once everyone else is dead. Which imo makes sense given they are entirely concerned with war and not feeling sorry for the death of their students...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah. Please no parting out of current unit champions to indie characters, only for them to be deployed in the unit any way.

That being said? An Exarch IC a step above regular Exarchs would be palatable to me. I mean, Eldar live a long, long time. And an Aspect Warrior can become trapped on the path surprisingly quickly. So surely there’d be degrees of Exarch, with the Phoenix Lords being the pinnacle.

Given the history of Eldar releases and GW, asking for 8-9 'intermediate rank' exarchs (and one dark eldar totally-not-an-exarch) seems like a big push.

Though with the Phoenix Lords as the founders (or at least their soul-devouring suits), they aren't really the pinnacle of Exarch-dom. More like wraithguard wearing a flesh suit underneath to make themselves go.

drbored wrote:
I just can't bother to be concerned about such things until we see the full rules.

We were literally just given the rules with the example of the Primaris Lt. restrictions

EviscerationPlague wrote:

drbored wrote:
I just can't bother to be concerned about such things until we see the full rules.

We were literally just given the rules with the example of the Primaris Lt. restrictions

Not every army has a bunch of different categories of units like Marines do.

Literally the wording before the showcasing of restrictions:

Each Leader has a short selection of units that they can join, all of them listed on their datasheet. A Primaris Lieutenant can shack up with Intercessors or Bladeguard Veterans but leaves Gravis-armoured Aggressors and Heavy Intercessors to his more appropriately equipped colleagues.

How you going to divvy up things like Tau Fireblades? They can only join Breachers but not Strike Teams?

Well now you’re just inventing a problem.

Why shouldn’t a Fireblade be able to join Breachers? Intercessors don’t seem to need a Ranged Lieutenant to join them, so weapon mis-match doesn’t appear to be an issue.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well now you’re just inventing a problem.

Right now, most of the discussion is simply "inventing a problem".

Why shouldn’t a Fireblade be able to join Breachers?
Intercessors don’t seem to need a Ranged Lieutenant to join them, so weapon mis-match doesn’t appear to be an issue.

Didn't say they should not be able to, but okay. Simply used it as an example.

Because the only difference between Fire Warrior teams are the Breacher and Strike setups.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Right now, most of the discussion is simply "inventing a problem".

Most of the discussion is discussing the implications and limitations of the system. How did you not realise that?

I really don't know what would be so difficult or inelegant about only allowing deployment rules (like Deep Strike) to function when all members of the squad have that rule. Seems less arbitrary than "This Captain can only join X, and Y, but never Z!!!".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Right now, most of the discussion is simply "inventing a problem".

Most of the discussion is discussing the implications and limitations of the system. How did you not realise that?

I really don't know what would be so difficult or inelegant about only allowing deployment rules (like Deep Strike) to function when all members of the squad have that rule. Seems less arbitrary than "This Captain can only join X, and Y, but never Z!!!".

It wouldn't be "inelegant". In fact, better rulesets, written by gw rules writers literally do just that.

Yeah I really don't see a problem with making it so you have to field a terminator lord to go with your terminators. Deep Strike is just one potential issue, there would be many more once you account for all the different factions and their character choices.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah I really don't see a problem with making it so you have to field a terminator lord to go with your terminators. Deep Strike is just one potential issue

It's a non-issue, but y'all are eating it up like GW is genius.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah I really don't see a problem with making it so you have to field a terminator lord to go with your terminators.

Only characters in Terminator armour ever fight with Terminators? You can't ever have a Captain/Chaplain/Librarian that fights with them in power armour?

And I have a problem with anything that reduces player choice, especially for arbitrary reasons.

On one hand less choice is bad. On the other stricter permissions on what is allowed makes for less ambiguity and unintended consequences. It also makes it a lot easier to reinforce themes and limit the effects of soup without having to do it at the faction/detachment level. Take Dark Eldar. No need for complicated realspace raid rules if the Archon, Succubus, and Haemonculous are limited to joining their respective Kabal, Cult, and Coven units. Just take units as desired in a list.