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Tsagualsa wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
Strangely there is nothing on the Rhino sheet about the actual transport capacity and which units can embark, only the Firing Deck ability for how many can shoot

Maybe, like in editions past, dedicated transports are bought as an upgrade to a specific unit, and can only transport that unit and any attached specialists; thus, any details about that process would be in the army selection section of the book and not on the sheet. Stuff like 'If this unit is 5 models or less, it can have a razorback, if it is 10 models or less it can have a rhino' etc.

That does not mesh well with the 'firing deck' ability that says up to two units may shoot from the vehicle, but that might be either a typo in the article (and the real rule would be 'up to two models may shoot') or be necessary for attached characters also being allowed to shoot.

Bringing dedicated transports as upgrades to a unit would also fit with only being able to bring normal characters together with units now instead of alone. The Firing Deck rule would also make more sense if its just a typo and should read two models since there are two top hatches

Tsagualsa wrote:
The promised vehicle article:
- general increase in toughness on all vehicles (for example a Rhino now being T9, with Stompas cited as being T14)

This is my favorite preview yet, I've been hoping they'd get rid of the T8 cap on vehicles and made the full spectrum have higher Toughness. Glad to see Rhinos will be more durable combat taxis.

I am surprised a transport was given WS 4+ though. I'm curious how they'll do Landraiders, mine have languished for some time now.

 Matrindur wrote:
Strangely there is nothing on the Rhino sheet about the actual transport capacity and which units can embark, only the Firing Deck ability for how many can shoot

Yeah, and it says how many 'units' can shoot, which I hope is just a WarCom error. That seems exploitable if you can cram multiple MSU squads in a transport.

WarCom wrote:All the weapons in the game have also been recalibrated to fit into this new scale, and we’ll be talking about those tomorrow.

So tomorrow will tell us if this toughness increase actually matters.

Regarding the transport and smoke points, is it possible they've blanked out half of the datasheet and are only showing us some of it? I agree it seems a bit weird not to include the transport cap on there but I doubt it's the standard "GW incompetent" excuse.

Voss wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
Strangely there is nothing on the Rhino sheet about the actual transport capacity and which units can embark, only the Firing Deck ability for how many can shoot

Yeah, and it says how many 'units' can shoot, which I hope is just a WarCom error. That seems exploitable if you can cram multiple MSU squads in a transport.

I guess it's a typo and they meant models, i can't recall many vehicles that have firing decks for more than one unit that would make such a general special rule necessary if it really meant units... and most of these that have are Forgeworld superheavies or other rare things. It might be more useful for extensive fortifications and such though.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
Strangely there is nothing on the Rhino sheet about the actual transport capacity and which units can embark, only the Firing Deck ability for how many can shoot

I wouldn't be shocked if that's an element of the "Dedicated Transport" bit.

I'm sad to admit it, but the more i see of 10th the less i like it, we have seen very little so far but still they seem to be set on repeating all their fundamental mistakes: rules that give you additional rules that give you USRs, weird lawieresque ruleswriting, rules nested several layers deep, micromanagement of individual tanks headlights etc. via 'I suddenly remembered i have got grenades' stratagems and such things...

I see none of what you're seeing.

Also, Rhinos seemingly don't degrade! Woo hoo!

Interesting. Ramping up the toughness, and exceeding the (now very old) 10 Cap ought to make vehicles of all stripes differently survivable.

Given the Rhino and Speeder could be taken as a decent indication of lowest expected Toughness, this is encouraging. Small arms can still put a dent in them, but seems we’re back to Proper Anti-Tank having a roll.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Interesting. Ramping up the toughness, and exceeding the (now very old) 10 Cap ought to make vehicles of all stripes differently survivable.

Given the Rhino and Speeder could be taken as a decent indication of lowest expected Toughness, this is encouraging. Small arms can still put a dent in them, but seems we’re back to Proper Anti-Tank having a roll.

I am honestly shocked that a Repulsor hit T12 and Rhinos T9. It makes Chainfists an absolutely useful tool.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
Strangely there is nothing on the Rhino sheet about the actual transport capacity and which units can embark, only the Firing Deck ability for how many can shoot

I wouldn't be shocked if that's an element of the "Dedicated Transport" bit.

I'm sad to admit it, but the more i see of 10th the less i like it, we have seen very little so far but still they seem to be set on repeating all their fundamental mistakes: rules that give you additional rules that give you USRs, weird lawieresque ruleswriting, rules nested several layers deep, micromanagement of individual tanks headlights etc. via 'I suddenly remembered i have got grenades' stratagems and such things...

I see none of what you're seeing.

Also, Rhinos seemingly don't degrade! Woo hoo!

Ah well, it's too early to decide anyway, in most cases we're extrapolating from sample size 'one' anyway, which is almost always a fool's errand. What they're saying about their goals mostly points into the right direction, maybe i'm to gloomy already and it will work out in the end

 Valkyrie wrote:
Regarding the transport and smoke points, is it possible they've blanked out half of the datasheet and are only showing us some of it? I agree it seems a bit weird not to include the transport cap on there but I doubt it's the standard "GW incompetent" excuse.

I doubt anything is blocked out.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
Strangely there is nothing on the Rhino sheet about the actual transport capacity and which units can embark, only the Firing Deck ability for how many can shoot

I wouldn't be shocked if that's an element of the "Dedicated Transport" bit.

I'm sad to admit it, but the more i see of 10th the less i like it, we have seen very little so far but still they seem to be set on repeating all their fundamental mistakes: rules that give you additional rules that give you USRs, weird lawieresque ruleswriting, rules nested several layers deep, micromanagement of individual tanks headlights etc. via 'I suddenly remembered i have got grenades' stratagems and such things...

I see none of what you're seeing.

I see some of it (especially the rules writing), but they're mitigating some of the issue (at least in the case of strats, where they broke it up into discrete clauses), and leaving Smoke as a keyword is a definite tell.

But mostly they are directly addressing things I hate about 8th/9th, and showing far more awareness of the game's flaws than I expected them to acknowledge, so I'm pretty happy. So far, anyway.

I'm still a proponent of Smoke being an activated thing. With vehicles this tough getting -1 to hit and still shooting makes it worth being rare.

Smoke could be linked to a stratagem?

Voss wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
Strangely there is nothing on the Rhino sheet about the actual transport capacity and which units can embark, only the Firing Deck ability for how many can shoot

Yeah, and it says how many 'units' can shoot, which I hope is just a WarCom error. That seems exploitable if you can cram multiple MSU squads in a transport.

Or it could be relating to Combat Squadding.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Smoke could be linked to a stratagem?

Yea probably a core one.

I've wanted the Land Raider tier units to be T 12 for a while, glad to see that happening.

Hopefully weapons won't get much in the way of strength inflation. Wishlist is Melta stays at 8 or 9, and changes from + damage at half range to a +1 to wound at half range.

HK missile at S 14 makes sense since it is a 1 shot weapon. It was S10 vs Lascannon S9 before, so Lascannons will probably be in the S10-12 range, probably 12.

Smoke as a keyword still. Hmm. Hopefully it is not tied to a strategem, but say a usr/ part of the vehicle rules. Maybe with a tradeoff again, say declaring to pop smoke - vehicle gains benefits of cover but -1 to hit rolls.

1/3 wounds for degradation? I actually like the current system of below 1/2 wounds for a first step, and then below 1/4 for the second, and degrading statlines on the unit card. This is the one change I disagree with so far.

As a big fan of Rhinos I am super happy to see self-repair make a return and it's much better than before.

Armoured tracks is also an improvement.

The firing platform must be a typo though, otherwise vehicles just got crazy if everybody can shoot out of them.....

OC 2 is a surprise, but a welcome one for transports.

However, I am sceptical of the toughness increase with lethal weapons, anti- etc etc.

Its new Toughness of 9 leaves it significantly less vulnerable to most infantry-portable weapons, even meltagun blasts.

 
Seems to imply Melta is S9 or less, which would wound on 4s or 5s, vs the current S8 vs T7 that wounds on 3s.

StraightSilver wrote:
The firing platform must be a typo though, otherwise vehicles just got crazy if everybody can shoot out of them.....

They may indeed have meant model instead of unit, as Firing Deck 2 allowing just 2 embarked models to shoot does seem much more within reason, but this is GW after all...

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I've wanted the Land Raider tier units to be T 12 for a while, glad to see that happening.

Hopefully weapons won't get much in the way of strength inflation. Wishlist is Melta stays at 8 or 9, and changes from + damage at half range to a +1 to wound at half range.

We may well see the new ANTI trait replacing the old +1 to wound or similar rules. I can see them using it to grant exceptions and carve out specific roles for weapons that help bypass these new toughness stats.

For example; meltaguns get S8-9 normally, then ANTI-VEHICLE 3+ at half range. Railguns get ANTI-VEHICLE 2+.

 Matrindur wrote:
Strangely there is nothing on the Rhino sheet about the actual transport capacity and which units can embark, only the Firing Deck ability for how many can shoot

If characters have a list of eligible units they can join, units might have a list of eligible vehicles they can use.

This looks all very promising to me. Seems they are trying to dig a lot of vehicles out of the trash tier they languished in 9th.

Can't wait for the rest of the rules.

 Eldarsif wrote:
This looks all very promising to me. Seems they are trying to dig a lot of vehicles out of the trash tier they languished in 9th.

Can't wait for the rest of the rules.

I really get the feeling that Rhinos are back. A mechanized army feels useful.

I wonder if we'll get assault ramps back.

I have this faint memory of there being big show of how the tanks and vehicles are back being good starting at 9th ed. When they announced them being able to shoot even when in close combat. Lets see if this time it will stick.

In order to bring transport vehicles out of trash tier, the main step would be to change the terrible remove a model for each 1 rolled when the vehicle explodes rule.

Ironically this is a similar problem the game had many editions ago, that they fixed, then made bad again in 8th.

Mchagen wrote:
In order to bring transport vehicles out of trash tier, the main step would be to change the terrible remove a model for each 1 rolled when the vehicle explodes rule.

Ironically this is a similar problem the game had many editions ago, that they fixed, then made bad again in 8th.

I don't think that's what made them bad unless you were orks in a battlewagon and everyone is a MANZ.

With being able to shoot out there's less need to jump out immediately so popping it becomes more important and they're more durable. Another problem was you got way more movement out of walking and charging. Now that Rhinos don't degrade you don't have to sweat being on 5" movement the second you lose a handful of wounds.

Mchagen wrote:
In order to bring transport vehicles out of trash tier, the main step would be to change the terrible remove a model for each 1 rolled when the vehicle explodes rule.

I think if it triggers, transported units should just be affected by the explosion rule in the same way as anything else nearby.

More importantly, assault transports should be a thing again. Land Raiders have doors at the front for a reason, give them their old rule back GW!

 xttz wrote:
They don't want captains & lieutenants hiding at the back of the table. Hellblasters are (typically) more likely to be a mid-board unit like intercessors.

Maybe they should stop giving them Marksman Rifles as an option if they didn't want Captains and Lts in the backfield.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Mchagen wrote:
In order to bring transport vehicles out of trash tier, the main step would be to change the terrible remove a model for each 1 rolled when the vehicle explodes rule.

Ironically this is a similar problem the game had many editions ago, that they fixed, then made bad again in 8th.

I don't think that's what made them bad unless you were orks in a battlewagon and everyone is a MANZ.

With being able to shoot out there's less need to jump out immediately so popping it becomes more important and they're more durable. Another problem was you got way more movement out of walking and charging. Now that Rhinos don't degrade you don't have to sweat being on 5" movement the second you lose a handful of wounds.

No, I don't agree that all models should be removed based on a 1 out of d6 dice roll, regardless of their armor or wounds. It's a terrible rule.

Being able to shoot out is nice, but not all units are ranged orientated. This is another rule rhinos had in previous editions that was taken away--a collection of changes that made them, along with many transports, poor choices. As I said, "the main step," not the only step to bringing them to where they need to be useful.

Mchagen wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Mchagen wrote:
In order to bring transport vehicles out of trash tier, the main step would be to change the terrible remove a model for each 1 rolled when the vehicle explodes rule.

Ironically this is a similar problem the game had many editions ago, that they fixed, then made bad again in 8th.

I don't think that's what made them bad unless you were orks in a battlewagon and everyone is a MANZ.

With being able to shoot out there's less need to jump out immediately so popping it becomes more important and they're more durable. Another problem was you got way more movement out of walking and charging. Now that Rhinos don't degrade you don't have to sweat being on 5" movement the second you lose a handful of wounds.

No, I don't agree that all models should be removed based on a 1 out of d6 dice roll, regardless of their armor or wounds. It's a terrible rule.

Being able to shoot out is nice, but not all units are ranged orientated. This is another rule rhinos had in previous editions that was taken away--a collection of changes that made them, along with many transports, poor choices. As I said, "the main step," not the only step to bringing them to where they need to be useful.

I've got to disagree, they're making the transports tougher, ergo the units inside are more likely to get there and should the transport be cracked, a 1 in 6 chance to lose a guy seems reasonable.

If you put in expensive units like meganobz etc then you're paying for the speed and ablative wounds of the transport and the downsides are the points which are historically low and a slim chance to lose a model.

Applying the explodes result is one option, I wouldn't say changing it to a MW on a 1 or removing it entirely is a good idea though.