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 Tyran wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The Weirdboy getting better but more explodey is perfect.

So if I'm reading this correctly - a Weirdboy attached to 30 Boyz essentially gets a S12 flat D6 plasma gun shot?

Waaaaaaagh

Flat damage 7 but yes.

Still hitting on 4+ though.

With precision on 6

With S12 and AP-3 that gets to be a NASTY surprise for a character hiding in the unit.

 vipoid wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Morale is really slick.

Psykers, not sure. If this is all there is, a weapon profile or skill with a fancy name and a [PSYCHIC] tag, that reeks of the most hated parts of D&D 4th edition's design.

But remember - everything has to fit onto a single page, so there's really no room at all for any sort of options or choice.

Just ignore the sea of unused white space at the bottom of both psyker pages.

Or the size of the completely unnecessary banner, which only exists to show off the marketing photo.

It's not about using the room. It's about giving each unit a consistent set of abilities that isn't over the top. I'm sure they could fill it out if they wanted to.

The combi-weapon. Looks like they might have just cut out the plasma/melta/flamer/grav elements from the preview? Devastating wounds and anti infantry are oddballs, but that could just be the new way of denoting master crafted wargear for 10th? Alternatively is it just a generic accursed weapon of guns?

Spoletta wrote:


With precision on 6

With S12 and AP-3 that gets to be a NASTY surprise for a character hiding in the unit.

Actually I'm thinking it is full precision, so yeah quite nasty surprise for characters.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I can see a ton of people hating that combi-weapon...

Probably because it's GW not understanding why people hate on Chaos Terminators.

This isn't an effort to deal with CSM Termies. It's possible this particular combi is just a weaker version and we'll see melta combis still, but...it could go the other way, too.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I can see a ton of people hating that combi-weapon...

Probably because it's GW not understanding why people hate on Chaos Terminators.

This isn't an effort to deal with CSM Termies. It's possible this particular combi is just a weaker version and we'll see melta combis still, but...it could go the other way, too.

Or Death Guard who could only take one plasma, melta, and flamer since that's what the box gave us.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I can see a ton of people hating that combi-weapon...

Probably because it's GW not understanding why people hate on Chaos Terminators.

This isn't an effort to deal with CSM Termies. It's possible this particular combi is just a weaker version and we'll see melta combis still, but...it could go the other way, too.

You mean the Combi designated as "Combi-Weapon"?

Yeah I'm not seeing that happen.

CSM Termies are Bolter + Combi. This guy is SB + Combi. The SB is full effect and the Combi has it's own RF on top of giving himself Sustained while in a unit.

It feels like a bespoke thing to this model, but only time will tell. Clearly they're ok with other units having full special loadouts so CSM Termies don't need to be an exception. More questions than answers as usual with these articles.

( Does Sustained work on Smite? I imagine it must... )

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I can see a ton of people hating that combi-weapon...

Probably because it's GW not understanding why people hate on Chaos Terminators.

This isn't an effort to deal with CSM Termies. It's possible this particular combi is just a weaker version and we'll see melta combis still, but...it could go the other way, too.

Seems this will be their solution to units like marine vets & Deathwatch who currently have access to 30+ weapon profiles in a single datasheet.

 xttz wrote:
Seems this will be their solution to units like marine vets & Deathwatch who currently have access to 30+ weapon profiles in a single datasheet.

Oooh...yea...good point.

This snippet reinforces the idea from the Primaris Lt that space marine characters can only lead units in the same armour type:

Psykers are more than just brain-based artillery, however – he also boosts any Terminator Squad he’s leading, twisting the Veil of Time to grant their attacks the Sustained Hits ability.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:

Freeing up psychic powers to be used in any phase is good. I like the scaling up in power of the 'eadbanger power, and the risks involved! On the other hand, sounds like there might not be any selecting of powers / spells, just get what's on the unit card. And yeah, the librarian doesn't really thrill me.

There is always the possibility that later on we get 'different' units with a range of 'spells', something like a Brutal-Kunnin' Weirdboy with offensive powers and a Kunnin'-Brutal Weirdboy with e.g. movement powers, or one card for a SM Epistolarius, one for a Codificier and one for a Magister. Or Enhancements/Stratagems that change the powers, we know from the 'Artificer Armour' Enhancment that the datasheets are not totally immutable.

That would indeed be an interesting way for them to go, although it can lead to some datasheet bloat if they are making several variations of a Psyker with different powers.

As a thousand sons /eldar/csm/daemon player I both like and dislike the new psychic rules. On the minus it seems to remove some of the flavor of psychic powers, back like they were in 3-5th and it might be harder to build a grand strategy around powers. However, based on the psychic hood providing protection against wounds, not denial, and "da jump" working on a single d6 roll I would guess that there are no longer psychic tests. This makes using psychic powers much more reliable, especially the shooting as it seems that ability can just be used. Anyone who has played TS/GK knows what it is like to have a really really bad psychic phase early on and basically lose the game because of it. And with the passive abilities just working (albeit only on the attached unit) there is no failed test and you don't get your defense buff, or no way to activated it against your opponents first shooting phase if you go second. However, overall this will probably be a buff to psychic factions, and it does streamline the game pretty well.

Morale is much better, maybe this is the edition they finally get that right.

I also am a big fan of consolidating down all the mixed weapon profiles, i.e. power weapon, force weapon, combi-weapon, accursed weapon (probably still in) etc. Many times these differences were minor, or only affected like one model or one squad in a codex. As 40k has grown in size and scope this level of granulation is just not really supportable, and now if you want a game where each model has specific weapons etc., there is kill team. I know some people with disagree, but I think this is the better way to go.


Overall so far, I thought at first 10th might have just been core 9th with a few changes, but they are making some really broad changes. I am going to hold off any judgement of whether the edition is going to be good or bad until we have the full rules and I get some games in with a few different factions.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
CSM Termies are Bolter + Combi. This guy is SB + Combi. The SB is full effect and the Combi has it's own RF on top of giving himself Sustained while in a unit.

It feels like a bespoke thing to this model, but only time will tell. Clearly they're ok with other units having full special loadouts so CSM Termies don't need to be an exception. More questions than answers as usual with these articles.

( Does Sustained work on Smite? I imagine it must... )

Honestly, I'm not even sure at this point if leading a unit will let him benefit from his own Sustained Hits. It grants it to the unit he is leading, which may be considered different in the rules to the combined unit of him + the unit.

 Rihgu wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
CSM Termies are Bolter + Combi. This guy is SB + Combi. The SB is full effect and the Combi has it's own RF on top of giving himself Sustained while in a unit.

It feels like a bespoke thing to this model, but only time will tell. Clearly they're ok with other units having full special loadouts so CSM Termies don't need to be an exception. More questions than answers as usual with these articles.

( Does Sustained work on Smite? I imagine it must... )

Honestly, I'm not even sure at this point if leading a unit will let him benefit from his own Sustained Hits. It grants it to the unit he is leading, which may be considered different in the rules to the combined unit of him + the unit.

Taking the language at face value, which makes sense for this edition, I would say he gets it. Makes the spells just a bit better for the price of burying him in a unit. Of course you don't want to NOT put him in one, because he doesn't have Lone Operative.

Very happy with morale, pending definition of desperate escape. Wouldn't have said no to something of a combat effectiveness penalty, but I'm pretty happy with strategic level penalties.

Largely happy with psykers, glad to go back to a more straightforward suite of abilities that play well with the rest of the game.

Much prefer this version of Smite to mortal wound spam, and the weirdboy is excellent.

Not quite sure what's going on with storm bolter + combi-weapon- if that's a choice made in army building or what. I largely like the profile, however. [Even the 4+ BS, as it hearkens back to -1 to hit for firing all barrels)

 xeen wrote:
As a thousand sons /eldar/csm/daemon player I both like and dislike the new psychic rules. On the minus it seems to remove some of the flavor of psychic powers, back like they were in 3-5th and it might be harder to build a grand strategy around powers. However, based on the psychic hood providing protection against wounds, not denial, and "da jump" working on a single d6 roll I would guess that there are no longer psychic tests. This makes using psychic powers much more reliable, especially the shooting as it seems that ability can just be used. Anyone who has played TS/GK knows what it is like to have a really really bad psychic phase early on and basically lose the game because of it. And with the passive abilities just working (albeit only on the attached unit) there is no failed test and you don't get your defense buff, or no way to activated it against your opponents first shooting phase if you go second. However, overall this will probably be a buff to psychic factions, and it does streamline the game pretty well.

Yea...you're right. There were certainly some highs and lows in regards to psychic tests. What a pain it could be and layers of rules and strats to keep yourself from blowing up that are no longer necessary.

Now Ahriman can have a different rule instead of rerolling his tests.

 xeen wrote:
. On the minus it seems to remove some of the flavor of psychic powers, back like they were in 3-5th

This is essentially how they worked in 3rd before Minor Pyschic Powers were introduced in White Dwarf and the 3.5 Chaos Codex. For half or more of 3rd, Psykers didn't get a choice in powers. Smite was even the Marine power for Codex Chapters. So, this is exactly like they were in 3rd.

I really think they are pushing the simplicity thing.
All combi-weapons are gonna use a shared Combi-weapon profile.
All Power weapons with a shared profile
All Force weapons and so on.

We'll probably see SOME examples of specific weapons like Power Fists/Chain fists, but I can appreciate simplifying profiles for units that currently have way too many options (like DW Vets) or have wonky "no model/no rules" wargear selections like Chaos Terminators

-

so, some speculation on my part here:

1) I expect we will see weapons & unit abilities that can force a battleshock test on a unit, to represent their exceptional scariness and/or disruptive effect. Im thinking things like psychic fear effects (the tyranids were noted to have morale manipulation as an ability), or as a strategem for some "fear based" factions like Night Lords, or the dark eldar that forces a test if you start your turn in engagement range.

2) I expect that "rally" will be a core stratagem, especially as the wording, as it stands, reads that once a unit is below 50%, it tests every turn, meaning your going to be testing quite a bit and likely to have a lot of failures form sheer weight of dice.


3) while its not stated so far, I would expect that the full rules will clarify that a LEADER character that joins a unit "counts as" part of that unit for all rules purposes (coherency, targeting, etc), so he will gain access to his own buffs once he does so.

 Galef wrote:
I really think they are pushing the simplicity thing.
All combi-weapons are gonna use a shared Combi-weapon profile.
All Power weapons with a shared profile
All Force weapons and so on.

We'll probably see SOME examples of specific weapons like Power Fists/Chain fists, but I can appreciate simplifying profiles for units that currently have way too many options (like DW Vets) or have wonky "no model/no rules" wargear selections like Chaos Terminators

-

You're certainly understanding their design angle there and I appreciate it but I also understand many won't.

I think people are forgetting that the “two page army rules” (which explicitly doesn’t include the unit cards) will have things like psychic disciplines so this isn’t necessarily all that your librarian can do. We also know that the data cards have all the unit options but the rules defining which options a model actually has are separate, presumably on the other half of that page in the codex/index/whatever so I expect he gets the option to either take or swap for additional powers.

We don't know 2 page army rules have psychic powers

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I think people are forgetting that the “two page army rules” (which explicitly doesn’t include the unit cards) will have things like psychic disciplines so this isn’t necessarily all that your librarian can do. We also know that the data cards have all the unit options but the rules defining which options a model actually has are separate, presumably on the other half of that page in the codex/index/whatever so I expect he gets the option to either take or swap for additional powers.

They will likely be enhancements you can buy, but outside of psychic armies I don't think they'll be common.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I think people are forgetting that the “two page army rules” (which explicitly doesn’t include the unit cards) will have things like psychic disciplines so this isn’t necessarily all that your librarian can do. We also know that the data cards have all the unit options but the rules defining which options a model actually has are separate, presumably on the other half of that page in the codex/index/whatever so I expect he gets the option to either take or swap for additional powers.

They will likely be enhancements you can buy, but outside of psychic armies I don't think they'll be common.

It's worth noting that we probably have, just like with the Rhino, not seen the full profile/card: the Rhino was missing the things about transported units etc., this character is -at a minimum- missing the List of which units he can join. It's not inconceivable that there is more on the missing half that we've not seen yet.

Plausible, but I feel like they would have called that out.

Does anyone else get the sneaking suspicion that units won't be purchasable except in exact increments?

e.g. Aggressors in 3 or 6, but not 4? ( 3 suffers more on morale; 6 suffers, if Blast is the same; 4 suffers neither )

The morale rules serve as a lever on what unit sizes are good. Gaming them by bringing only 4 Aggs makes them a potentially better choice than say 5 terminators who would prefer to be 10 terminators if a Libby is going to join.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Does anyone else get the sneaking suspicion that units won't be purchasable except in exact increments?

e.g. Aggressors in 3 or 6, but not 4? ( 3 suffers more on morale; 6 suffers, if Blast is the same; 4 suffers neither )

Not just a sneaking suspicion, I'd bet money on it. They are taking several aspects from AOS and I'd bet that unit sizes will be fixed to what the box includes (same with wargear "options"). Pros and cons to both sides, but I've come around to preferring fixed starting unit sizes like with AOS to help prevent bending/breaking rules interactions.

 Gnarlly wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Does anyone else get the sneaking suspicion that units won't be purchasable except in exact increments?

e.g. Aggressors in 3 or 6, but not 4? ( 3 suffers more on morale; 6 suffers, if Blast is the same; 4 suffers neither )

Not just a sneaking suspicion, I'd bet money on it. They are taking several aspects from AOS and I'd bet that unit sizes will be fixed to what the box includes (same with wargear "options"). Pros and cons to both sides, but I've come around to preferring fixed starting unit sizes like with AOS to help prevent bending/breaking rules interactions.

I could certainly see this for a ton of units, but I really hope it's not universal for all.
I can't tell you how many times I've had enough points to add a extra model or two here and there, but not enough for another 5-10.
I love most of the simplifications on profiles, but forcing unit sizes to be 5/10 or 3/6 would kinda blow if they do so for EVERY unit

Ugh, I hope not. That means only Death Guard would be able to field holy numbers.

It could be the allow one "irregular" unit per army.