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The ideal solution to the Marine problem would be to split all the Primaris garbage off into its own faction since there's enough of it to stand alone - fluffwise a civil war between the Imperium and Cawl would have made absolute sense anyway given the tech-heresy of the latter. That way, you avoid the senseless unit count without having to cut iconic designs like the box Dreadnought in favour of the idiotic pot-bellied nipple-gunner that is the Redemptor.

As for 10th generally...it's exactly what I expected so far, and any commitment to the stated design goals will be abandoned as soon as there are books to sell. Not to mention that bespoke special rules on every bloody unit are just tiresome, and proper use of USRs would avoid it, if GW were ever able to do that. Grimdark Future does everything better and is completely free, so why would I not just keep playing that?

As I frequently say, this is just the same old rubbish with a new hat. Don't fall for it *again*!

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
If Marine players would get to rule the company we would have 40.000 Space Marine entries by the year 2040

Citation needed

Not quite so hyperbolic, but you just have to look at every non imperial/marine faction to see the obscene favouritism. There are more lieutenant models than eldar HQ choices combined across all flavours. Warp spiders are 30 years old. In that time marines have had something like 4 versions of the tactical squad.

GW doesn't sell 'Space marine 40,000' where you pick your protagonist marine chapter, relegating everything else to an NPC kill box for your friends to draw the short straw in playing so you can live your fantasies.

Until GW sells 40k like Space hulk, where it's clear you're playing marines and you swap to see who plays marines the best, they have a responsibility to their customers to provide them equal representation. Anything less is false advertising.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
The ideal solution to the Marine problem would be to split all the Primaris garbage off into its own faction since there's enough of it to stand alone - fluffwise a civil war between the Imperium and Cawl would have made absolute sense anyway given the tech-heresy of the latter. That way, you avoid the senseless unit count without having to cut iconic designs like the box Dreadnought in favour of the idiotic pot-bellied nipple-gunner that is the Redemptor.

As for 10th generally...it's exactly what I expected so far, and any commitment to the stated design goals will be abandoned as soon as there are books to sell. Not to mention that bespoke special rules on every bloody unit are just tiresome, and proper use of USRs would avoid it, if GW were ever able to do that. Grimdark Future does everything better and is completely free, so why would I not just keep playing that?

As I frequently say, this is just the same old rubbish with a new hat. Don't fall for it *again*!

It would be a fun plot point. Turns out the new organ, the Belisarian Furnace can be used to make a marines biology decay or age due to being put into metabolic overdrive for long periods. All at the activation of some pheromones or a noise or what have you.

Cawl gives an ultimatum, do what I say or they all die in a few weeks. Some marines go over techno heretic, some stay loyal to Bobby G. A new schism that has stakes, marines literally keeling over from artifical aging as they fight while others are having not chaos mutations as their biology is pushed to the limits. Bile is drooling on the sidelines as this is literally his kink.

Why would Guilliman suddenly turn against Cawl when he's openly supported him since his resurrection and hates how his father's vision has been twisted into the parody that it is now?

 Platuan4th wrote:
Why would Guilliman suddenly turn against Cawl when he's openly supported him since his resurrection and hates how his father's vision has been twisted into the parody that it is now?

Because headcanon and fanfiction in 40k is just as bad as anywhere else

 Platuan4th wrote:
Why would Guilliman suddenly turn against Cawl when he's openly supported him since his resurrection and hates how his father's vision has been twisted into the parody that it is now?

He wouldn't. He'd side with Cawl against the Imperium he sees as a failure, and the Imperium in turn would denounce him as a heretic and perhaps claim he wasn't really the Primarch, in order to justify it. Would make bringing back a loyalist Primarch in the first place a lot more interesting than it has been.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
The ideal solution to the Marine problem would be to split all the Primaris garbage off into its own faction since there's enough of it to stand alone - fluffwise a civil war between the Imperium and Cawl would have made absolute sense anyway given the tech-heresy of the latter. That way, you avoid the senseless unit count without having to cut iconic designs like the box Dreadnought in favour of the idiotic pot-bellied nipple-gunner that is the Redemptor.

As for 10th generally...it's exactly what I expected so far, and any commitment to the stated design goals will be abandoned as soon as there are books to sell. Not to mention that bespoke special rules on every bloody unit are just tiresome, and proper use of USRs would avoid it, if GW were ever able to do that. Grimdark Future does everything better and is completely free, so why would I not just keep playing that?

As I frequently say, this is just the same old rubbish with a new hat. Don't fall for it *again*!

That's dumb as hell, frankly speaking. And Space Marine Chapters innovate new patterns all the time.

 Hellebore wrote:


GW doesn't sell 'Space marine 40,000' where you pick your protagonist marine chapter, relegating everything else to an NPC kill box for your friends to draw the short straw in playing so you can live your fantasies.

My impression from speaking to local Marine players is that Black Library has trained them to think pretty much like that.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
The ideal solution to the Marine problem would be to split all the Primaris garbage off into its own faction since there's enough of it to stand alone - fluffwise a civil war between the Imperium and Cawl would have made absolute sense anyway given the tech-heresy of the latter. That way, you avoid the senseless unit count without having to cut iconic designs like the box Dreadnought in favour of the idiotic pot-bellied nipple-gunner that is the Redemptor.

As for 10th generally...it's exactly what I expected so far, and any commitment to the stated design goals will be abandoned as soon as there are books to sell. Not to mention that bespoke special rules on every bloody unit are just tiresome, and proper use of USRs would avoid it, if GW were ever able to do that. Grimdark Future does everything better and is completely free, so why would I not just keep playing that?

As I frequently say, this is just the same old rubbish with a new hat. Don't fall for it *again*!

I think GW are going down a different route. Concise datacards for unit entries takes the pressure off having a codex several inches thick if you have an army like imperial marines, you only need to bring along the datacards for the list you are actually playing so even if the marine card deck is bigger overall, both players have roughly the same amount of reference stuff at the table. Doing it this way has a few neat side effects too - with a lot of the rules taken out of the codex and put onto a card, there is less pressure to release an entire factions worth of stuff in one hit when the new codex drops, models and cards can be dished out as and when which would better suit supporting smaller factions that don't always get the attention they deserve.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
The ideal solution to the Marine problem would be to split all the Primaris garbage off into its own faction since there's enough of it to stand alone - fluffwise a civil war between the Imperium and Cawl would have made absolute sense anyway given the tech-heresy of the latter. That way, you avoid the senseless unit count without having to cut iconic designs like the box Dreadnought in favour of the idiotic pot-bellied nipple-gunner that is the Redemptor.

You didn't solve the problem, only just divided into more Space Marine factions so Xenos can get HQ unit every 3 years if they are lucky while Space Marine players get Space Marine models every single Saturday. At this point it would be better for people to admit that they want Horus Heresy 30k and Horus Heresy 40k and everyone else be damned, because this civil war you mentioned is just Horus Heresy 2.0. Hell, at least just sunset the xenos and allow us to find better games(Shatterpoint is starting to look good) that isn't just different shade of Space Marine.

Just cut out xenos and everything can be perfect, because it is quite obvious that a good majority has 0 interest in xenos players except as some Saturday Morning Breakfast Villain.

EDIT: I like that my title right now is Angered Reaver Arena Champion. As a Xenos player I am getting rather tired "Space Marine-me, Space Marine-you, Space Marine-everyone" attitude on these forums.

 Insularum wrote:
I think GW are going down a different route. Concise datacards for unit entries takes the pressure off having a codex several inches thick if you have an army like imperial marines, you only need to bring along the datacards for the list you are actually playing so even if the marine card deck is bigger overall, both players have roughly the same amount of reference stuff at the table. Doing it this way has a few neat side effects too - with a lot of the rules taken out of the codex and put onto a card, there is less pressure to release an entire factions worth of stuff in one hit when the new codex drops, models and cards can be dished out as and when which would better suit supporting smaller factions that don't always get the attention they deserve.

There's been a fundamental issue with the 40k release schedule for a long time due to this. Having new stuff tied to a physical printed book meant that it would get dropped all at once and that faction would leap ahead in terms of game balance while all the others lagged behind.

My biggest hope for 'fixing' 40k is to decouple model releases from rules updates like this. So for example, rather than this:

an Ork codex release with a codex and 6 kits in 2023, followed by nothing for three years

an Eldar codex release with a codex and 6 kits in 2024, followed by nothing for three years

a CSM codex release with a codex and 6 kits in 2025, followed by nothing for three years

you could instead see:

2 new kits for each faction in 2023/4 with their codex

2 new kits for each faction in 2024/5, with unit datacards downloadable or included in the box

2 new kits for each faction in 2025/6, with unit datacards downloadable or included in the box

That approach not only means it's easier to balance incremental changes to the faction, but also means that other factions can recieve range updates more frequently.

 morganfreeman wrote:
If marines are going to get a trim, the first place it should start is in the HQ section. They do not need 20 different lieutenant with slightly different bespoke gear combinations. Even the new system could be easily accommodated by one sheet with armor options, each of which comes with a suit of units he can be attached to and bestows a different unit-wide special rule.

We... more or less are getting that. Phobos and Tacticus are remaining separate, but that's down to two. If a Gravis one ever happens that's three.

Yes, I'd rather combine a few more of them as well, but it is at least starting to happen under what we've already seen. I think there's a reasonable argument that different rules for different armour in the same datacard would make that unwieldy to read and feel quite bloated.

 Eldarsif wrote:


You didn't solve the problem, only just divided into more Space Marine factions so Xenos can get HQ unit every 3 years if they are lucky while Space Marine players get Space Marine models every single Saturday. At this point it would be better for people to admit that they want Horus Heresy 30k and Horus Heresy 40k and everyone else be damned, because this civil war you mentioned is just Horus Heresy 2.0. Hell, at least just sunset the xenos and allow us to find better games(Shatterpoint is starting to look good) that isn't just different shade of Space Marine.

Just cut out xenos and everything can be perfect, because it is quite obvious that a good majority has 0 interest in xenos players except as some Saturday Morning Breakfast Villain.

Except that we know GW isn't releasing anything that matches the original Marine style any more, so all that my suggested split would do is reduce the number of options available to any one Marine army and let them focus on Primaris without polluting or removing the originals.

Amazing how many words you put in my mouth there, though. In essence I actually agree with you that non-Marine factions should have more attention and the shift towards Marines being the protagonist faction is godawful - but you're so determined to lash out that you don't even consider that. I also think Horus Heresy as a game is a tiresome affair, and that making the current fluff a little more interesting than 'super-awesome Primarch comes back with his super-awesome super-Marines' has no bearing on the games people would play.

But sure, I just want 'all Marines, all the time' (/sarcasm).

WarCom tweet confirming that Primaris units can use drop pods now

https://twitter.com/warhammer/status/1649005124272943104

 xttz wrote:
WarCom tweet confirming that Primaris units can use drop pods now

https://twitter.com/warhammer/status/1649005124272943104

Now if we could get Dreadnought drop pods, in plastic or even just bring back the FW one.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
The ideal solution to the Marine problem would be to split all the Primaris garbage off into its own faction since there's enough of it to stand alone - fluffwise a civil war between the Imperium and Cawl would have made absolute sense anyway given the tech-heresy of the latter. That way, you avoid the senseless unit count without having to cut iconic designs like the box Dreadnought in favour of the idiotic pot-bellied nipple-gunner that is the Redemptor.

As for 10th generally...it's exactly what I expected so far, and any commitment to the stated design goals will be abandoned as soon as there are books to sell. Not to mention that bespoke special rules on every bloody unit are just tiresome, and proper use of USRs would avoid it, if GW were ever able to do that. Grimdark Future does everything better and is completely free, so why would I not just keep playing that?

As I frequently say, this is just the same old rubbish with a new hat. Don't fall for it *again*!

You know, IMHO that would have been exactly what they should have done when Guilliman returned. He sees how the Imperium is today and is like nope, and goes all Imperium Secundus again, virtually secedes from it. He basically makes Cawl his own Fabricator General of his own Mechanicus (Ultramars lmao jk) and converts (imply it's forcibly, i.e. convert or die, because grimdark) all the ultras in Ultramar to Primaris, include their successors as well to have your own set of "Primaris Successors". Basically you have Ultramar-as-Byzantine Empire with all Primaris, positioned in a sometimes allied/sometimes war with the non-Primaris Imperium. Not full blown Heresy 2.0 civil war, but more like uneasy alliance that breaks out into conflicts. Finally a non-hamfisted way to have Marine vs. Marine or Guard vs. Guard, but it's not open war either.

TBH it would have been a good way to do a full split between Imperium Sanctus and Imperium Nihilus instead of basically making it out to be some big thing and then it's like oh it's not really that bad we can still go back and forth. Sanctus, with its more supplies and stuff, would have been good for Guilliman's "empire" with all Primaris, while Nihilus has to make due with what they have (and resent being basically 2nd class citizens) and would be your "Firstborn" faction.

Hell they could still do this with Lion coming back.

Yeah, MORE space marine factions is definitely what this game needs.

Tac squad kit will be remade soon enough in primaris format and firstborn will be dodo. No big deal. I will always love them but things change.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
Except that we know GW isn't releasing anything that matches the original Marine style any more

The new Terminator Squad and Terminator Librarian would like to say "Hi!", at the very least.

I actually think that this would be the lamest thing ever. Horus heresy two, Guilliman bogaloo can remain a fanfic for all I care. I agree that the Primaris stuff wasn't handle well but this is a really not what people would want.

Related to the transport news: in really happy to stick a bunch of blade guards into a Spartan

The only way to salvage it would be to retcon all the dumb primaris lore out of existence. Treat it as a new armour mark and a scale update that we all pretend we dont see. As with every other scale update.

Make them all space marines rules-wise.

Regarding the limitation on what units can embark on Rhinos, Razorbacks and Impulsors: I'm betting it doesn't DIRECTLY restrict Primaris vs non-Primaris, but rather just excludes certain units.
For example, Rhinos/Razorbacks have always excluded Terminators, so it makes sense to keep that going.
I'd imagine they'll add that restriction to Impulsors too, and probably Gravis Armour as well.

So there's a chance that Rhinos can take Intercessors and Impulsors can take Tacticals. But neither could take Terminators, Gravis or Jump models

-

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/20/safe-terrain-is-now-simple-terrain-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

Feels bad man...

Seeing the different categories of terrain in the article, it's eminently possible to have models with and without the BoC in the same unit, which means varying armour saves, which in turn means that much of this terrain business counteracts one of their central design tenets for 10th, and this will also lead to LoS arguments. Not ideal, or even just good.

I think I was spot-on years ago when I said that GW will move older SM's kits a few at a time into Legends as the old kits get used less and less and they're equivalent Primaris kits become more favorable.

Meh, we've rolled terrain, at best, to the first of its truly neutered incarnations of 5th edition, cover saves are handed out like candy but no matter how dense the board is it's a pure shooting gallery because nothing actually blocks LOS to a meaningful degree.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Meh, we've rolled terrain, at best, to the first of its truly neutered incarnations of 5th edition, cover saves are handed out like candy but no matter how dense the board is it's a pure shooting gallery because nothing actually blocks LOS to a meaningful degree.

Ruins block LoS to anything not aircraft or towering.

I wish they'd go back to the 3rd ed version of woods. Offered good LoS blocking while also being very simple to work with and model.

Dudeface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Meh, we've rolled terrain, at best, to the first of its truly neutered incarnations of 5th edition, cover saves are handed out like candy but no matter how dense the board is it's a pure shooting gallery because nothing actually blocks LOS to a meaningful degree.

Ruins block LoS to anything not aircraft or towering.

Not if they have open doors and windows.

Tsagualsa wrote:


Feels bad man...

Seeing the different categories of terrain in the article, it's eminently possible to have models with and without the BoC in the same unit, which means varying armour saves, which in turn means that much of this terrain business counteracts one of their central design tenets for 10th, and this will also lead to LoS arguments. Not ideal, or even just good.

Woof. Not sure how I feel about this, but it certainly gets around the armor disparity a little.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Meh, we've rolled terrain, at best, to the first of its truly neutered incarnations of 5th edition, cover saves are handed out like candy but no matter how dense the board is it's a pure shooting gallery because nothing actually blocks LOS to a meaningful degree.

Ruins block LoS to anything not aircraft or towering.

Not if they have open doors and windows.

The article heavily implies ruins still BLOS

Ruins – These wrecked and damaged structures completely block visibility of all models*** through their footprint, regardless of how much you can see through their fancy gothic windows. Otherwise, models outside can shoot in, and models inside can shoot out.