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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Glad I already sold off my Black Legion because this isn't looking any better than the 9th book. I especially love the bit where they say:

these traitors have long since abandoned notions of professionalism and tradition

And then immediately the Legionaries datasheet says "No duplicate weapons". Sticking to Heresy it is.

Only to stop the Champ from dual-wielding Plasma Pistols though, which is much better than current.

no, the champion is allowed to dual wield pistols but not 2 plasma pistols. But what gert is talking about is the 1/ 5 special/ heavy weapons options, which state that you are codex astartes compliant by not allowing you 2 plasma guns or autocannons.

It’s nice to see what a packed card looks like. Sad to see NMNR is not gone. Just what’s in the box.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:
Legionaires have the Battleline keyword on the datasheet. I guess that solves the mystery of how it would be determined.

I imagine some detachments will change that. We just haven't been shown one yet.

Unrelated - I don't really like Abaddon having auras like that. On the flip side -- having to choose between the three very good auras is a little more interesting.

I guess they only print it on the get-you-by cards as they'll effectively only come with a single detachment, once the codex replaces them there'll probably be ways to change battleline.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Glad I already sold off my Black Legion because this isn't looking any better than the 9th book. I especially love the bit where they say:

these traitors have long since abandoned notions of professionalism and tradition

And then immediately the Legionaries datasheet says "No duplicate weapons". Sticking to Heresy it is.

also, as mentioned no more 20 man blocks? Ye old tactic of when marines weren't so few in numbers and the standard was 10 atleast and 20 for line duty?

I really should start thinking about repainting my chaos marines in HH AL colours i guess, certainly would expand my infantry / veterans core in a minimal ammount of time

They've been 10 man only for a good while now.

 Gert wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Only to stop the Champ from dual-wielding Plasma Pistols though, which is much better than current.

The 1-In-5 selection explicitly says "No duplicates allowed" which means no double specials or heavies.

Ah rats, nevermind then. That is super annoying. Shouldn't have skimmed over that part after reading the notes at the bottom.

Definitely nice about the Legionaries: if you built your squads to match the current 9th ed codex, you can still use them in the exact same configuration. Gotta be the first time that I don't need to reorganise my CSM squads with an edition change.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Glad I already sold off my Black Legion because this isn't looking any better than the 9th book. I especially love the bit where they say:

these traitors have long since abandoned notions of professionalism and tradition

And then immediately the Legionaries datasheet says "No duplicate weapons". Sticking to Heresy it is.

also, as mentioned no more 20 man blocks? Ye old tactic of when marines weren't so few in numbers and the standard was 10 atleast and 20 for line duty?

I really should start thinking about repainting my chaos marines in HH AL colours i guess, certainly would expand my infantry / veterans core in a minimal ammount of time

They've been 10 man only for a good while now.

welp. my bad then. Still, how come csm are now codex compliant when the whole stick of the legions is that they were legions without the reforms of rowboat?

Seems that "grenades" are no longer equipment but have been relegated to keyword. I hope they don't bring back the days of 3rd ed when your grenades couldn't kill anybody...

They talk about reducing lethality and increasing survivability but compare guilliman to abbadon.

Abbadon lost toughness and his wound cap. Plus he lost the to wound reduction ability.



Meanwhile guilliman gained 50% toughness (!) 1 a extra wound and his resurrection improved...

One is a Primarch. The other is simply A Very Naughty Boy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Abaddon can join a unit, Guilliman can’t. So there’s some level of added survivability there.

 Hellebore wrote:
They talk about reducing lethality and increasing survivability but compare guilliman to abbadon.

Abbadon lost toughness and his wound cap. Plus he lost the to wound reduction ability.



Meanwhile guilliman gained 50% toughness (!) 1 a extra wound and his resurrection improved...

Holy gak, its ONE character that was OVERLY tanky in the current edition that lost tankyness. Thats not a sign that the overall lethality of the game hasnt reduced

 Hellebore wrote:
They talk about reducing lethality and increasing survivability but compare guilliman to abbadon.

Abbadon lost toughness and his wound cap. Plus he lost the to wound reduction ability.



Meanwhile guilliman gained 50% toughness (!) 1 a extra wound and his resurrection improved...

Well, Abbadons huge trick was his absolutely ruthless durability, meaning a lot of the time he could kill nearly anything because he could survive one round of combat.

Effectively, making him actually killable in 1 turn, means it reduces the ludicrous lethality he tended to have - however look at the profile of Drach'nyen, he can still dish out a mighty slap to the big bads in the game when needed.

Also, yeah, Abbadon is not a Primarch, never was a Primarch and has never ascended to Daemonhood, he is just a (chaos) marine still, with a few gifts and buffs from dark gods.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One is a Primarch. The other is simply A Very Naughty Boy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Abaddon can join a unit, Guilliman can’t. So there’s some level of added survivability there.

A marine empowered by the chaos gods to the level Horus was, should be effectively a primarch. Just as Horus was on par with the emperor.

He's now just as tough as a normal terminator. he should be at least t6.

Although guilliman being t9 just seems stupid.

 Gert wrote:

Genuinely the better choice. The Traitor Legions are far better represented in HH than they have been since 8th dropped for 40k.

that they are. But my question then is, considering i alraedy own 20 tacs, 20 special weapons, 12 veterans, what i'd do with another 65 vets, clearly far too along on the corruption path for HH.

______________
Anyways. Chaos marines got 3 attacks with a glorified kitchen knife? 4 when they get an chainsword? That doesn't scream reduced lethality to me. Granted getting in stabbin range always is more difficult than shooting but still.

Also he, CSM finaly get back boltgun, boltpistol and CQC weapons in one go.

Removed - stop it already.

OK. Lots of weapon options and an armory card. That settles a lot of unknowns.

Kept 'no duplicates' from 9th, which is annoying. Other than that, though, the unit has a lot of options.

I like 'heavy melee weapon.' It covers the obvious weapons and even opens up some (gasp) conversions and kit-bashing.

----
Question raised by the card: the Aspiring champion can end up with 3 melee weapons (ccw + trade both ranged weapons), some of which can be duplicates. We don't know what happens with that..

-----
My initial reaction to dark pact was 'feth no.' Icons mitigate that a bit, but that sort of gamble instantly puts me off an army. Crit-fishing by way of self damage is just not something I'm into.

And still hands out some nice aura buffs. Guiliman has some perks, and we will need to see all the strats to see how good it is. But right now being the Warmaster might be better the the Author of the Codex.

Yea this just makes Abaddon and Bobby fit more cleanly into their different "levels". Abby had all those rules before, because protecting such a model was pretty difficult.

Having him deepstrike in with terminators and roll stuff up while ALSO being T9 like Bobby? That'd probably be a bit much.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One is a Primarch. The other is simply A Very Naughty Boy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Abaddon can join a unit, Guilliman can’t. So there’s some level of added survivability there.

A marine empowered by the chaos gods to the level Horus was, should be effectively a primarch. Just as Horus was on par with the emperor.

He's now just as tough as a normal terminator. he should be at least t6.

Although guilliman being t9 just seems stupid.

Abaddon is absolutely not empowered to the level that Horus was when fighting the Emperor. At that point even his Primarch-level resilience was barely keeping chaos power from blowing out his fuses, Abaddon would be toast in second if flooded with anywhere near the same power. He has made pacts with all four chaos gods, but he is not a quadruple-demon-prince-like entity like Horus was at the end.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One is a Primarch. The other is simply A Very Naughty Boy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Abaddon can join a unit, Guilliman can’t. So there’s some level of added survivability there.

A marine empowered by the chaos gods to the level Horus was, should be effectively a primarch. Just as Horus was on par with the emperor.

He's now just as tough as a normal terminator. he should be at least t6.

Although guilliman being t9 just seems stupid.

Abaddon is absolutely not empowered to the level that Horus was when fighting the Emperor. At that point even his Primarch-level resilience was barely keeping chaos power from blowing out his fuses, Abaddon would be toast in second if flooded with anywhere near the same power. He has made pacts with all four chaos gods, but he is not a quadruple-demon-prince-like entity like Horus was at the end.

He's marked by all 4 gods, something only belakor and Horus have ever been. The gods don't share, so to have one person with all their marks is a huge power boost. As he was not a primarch to begin with, the power will push him proportionatrly lower than Horus was, but still far beyond a marine captain. That boost easily puts him into primarch territory as he has been for ages

this is literally a nerf for him and a fanwank boost for guilliman (and I'm guessing lion).

 Hellebore wrote:


this is literally a nerf for him and a fanwank boost for guilliman (and I'm guessing lion).

Just stop.

Guilliman can't join squads, Abaddon will be able to, add 10 termis with a 4++ and abaddon is now much tankier than Guilliman

 Hellebore wrote:
They talk about reducing lethality and increasing survivability but compare guilliman to abbadon.

Abbadon lost toughness and his wound cap. Plus he lost the to wound reduction ability.


eanwhile guilliman gained 50% toughness (!) 1 a extra wound and his resurrection improved...

Guilliman's lone operative ability means he can be targeted within 12" and charged separately from any nearby units.

Meanwhile can Abaddon join a large terminator blob for 30 ablative wounds. From the previewed rules he's also valid for the extended part of that NURGLE stratagem, making him and presumably his bodyguard unit untargetable beyond 12" on top of whatever Stealth does.

I’m genuinely thinking Abaddon might be better off leading a fairly basic squad.

I say that, as his sheer damage output is horrific. Putting him in with Terminators feels like too much power in one unit. Yes they’ll absolutely annihilate pretty much anything they charge, but your opponent may be able to simply play keep away, or feed them chaff.

Take the 10 Terminators, and put Abaddon in a unit of CSM, and the power is still there, just not as heavily concentrated?

Maybe I missed something, but does the Legionnaire datasheet imply that a champion can take two heavy melee weapons?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:


this is literally a nerf for him and a fanwank boost for guilliman (and I'm guessing lion).

Just stop.

Guilliman can't join squads, Abaddon will be able to, add 10 termis with a 4++ and abaddon is now much tankier than Guilliman

Stop being patronising.

Using your army to shield a model from damage is a completely separate discussion to the the stat line of said model. That's like saying it's ok if a land raider is t6 so long as you put 6 repuslors around it so no one can see it.

And guilliman is a lone operative when within 3" of marines.

The dark pact rule just feels so gimmicky, like oath of moment. Not really digging this change to the format.
Abby losing wound reduction is nice, but that hopefully is spread across the board. T5 seems off though, especially if gravis armour has truly been bumped to T6.
There is still a lot for me to unravel with this edition, its currently something I’m not excited about. Certainly don’t like the massive reduction in psychic power choice. I guess when you prefer to play narratively, more choice is just a lot better than severe restriction for “balance”.
As others mentioned, I also have a feeling we will see a psychic expansion at some point in this edition. Maybe they could call it something like …… psychic awakenings. 😂😂

 Hellebore wrote:

Stop being patronising.

Using your army to shield a model from damage is a completely separate discussion to the the stat line of said model. That's like saying it's ok if a land raider is t6 so long as you put 6 repuslors around it so no one can see it.

And guilliman is a lone operative when within 3" of marines.

Not in this edition, it isn't. Bobby can't deepstrike with 10 terminators that have stealth and untargetable past 12". Abaddon can.

 Hellebore wrote:


Stop being patronising.

Using your army to shield a model from damage is a completely separate discussion to the the stat line of said model. That's like saying it's ok if a land raider is t6 so long as you put 6 repuslors around it so no one can see it.

And guilliman is a lone operative when within 3" of marines.

i'm being patronizing because you seem convinced that Abaddon sucks because he's not an unkillable "OP 1v1 be me bro" machine anymore and assuming that he's somehow worse than guilliman. People freaking out and being alarmist because theyre unable to look at the bigger picture tilts the feth out of me. And no, Abaddon doesnt have the physiology of a fething Primarch (hence the lower toughness). Not all chaos boons mean you become more resilient in a vacuum so him being T5 is perfectly fine.

One other thing that annoys be about Abby.
He gets to add a CP if he passes his dark pacts Ld check. But on a 2+. So another needless dice roll.
If he passes his Ld check, just give him the CP and stop adding pointless additional rolls.

 Hellebore wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:


this is literally a nerf for him and a fanwank boost for guilliman (and I'm guessing lion).

Just stop.

Guilliman can't join squads, Abaddon will be able to, add 10 termis with a 4++ and abaddon is now much tankier than Guilliman

Stop being patronising.

Using your army to shield a model from damage is a completely separate discussion to the the stat line of said model. That's like saying it's ok if a land raider is t6 so long as you put 6 repuslors around it so no one can see it.

And guilliman is a lone operative when within 3" of marines.

Sure if you approach things the newbie way.

Veterans know things aren't in vacuum.

Or you play games of abbadon vs guillimann and nothing else?

Also we don't know points. What if abbadon is 200 and guilliman 800?