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2023/05/11 13:53:14
Subject: Re:10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
For those still following online drama, Valrak has made a separate video about his supposed 'blacklisting' by GW after the claims he made in yesterdays stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTrtCFJcPAI
(Not gonna summarize that one)
2023/05/11 14:02:27
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Be advised that it's allegedly from a discord, with no actual photos or anything, so it could all be fake.
- Fire Overwatch known
- Go to Ground: 1 CP, Benefit of Cover AND 6+ Invulnerable Save,
- Rapid Ingress known
- Grenade: no details given
- Smoke Screen: Benefit of Cover and Stealth USRs - Command Re-Roll: no details given
- Counter Offensive: no details given
- Insane Bravery: no details given
- Heroic Intervention: 2CP, allows for a charge move of one of your non-Vehicle units after enemy charged one of your units within 6'', no charge benefits though
- Epic Challenge: no details given
- Tank Shock: no details given
- New Tactic Mission if you're playing with them
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/05/11 14:21:55
2023/05/11 14:08:38
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Somebody who is "100%" blacklisted wouldn't have been invited to a press event at Warhammer fest a week ago. Seems like they just don't want somebody who isn't on there NDA scheme getting stuff early, which I imagine is the same for everyone who isn't on it
2023/05/11 14:16:13
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
lord_blackfang wrote: Hmmm I begin to tire of "each faction has a trivially achievable curcumstantial +1 to hit and +1 to wound"
Hmm? can you list them?
Tbh it's 2 lol but they put them back to back so it stands out more. Same way all the "stuff happens on obj markers" was show close together, assuming it's intended to give focus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/11 14:20:30
2023/05/11 14:36:46
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
lord_blackfang wrote: Hmmm I begin to tire of "each faction has a trivially achievable curcumstantial +1 to hit and +1 to wound"
The reason it doesn't bother me is there's ways to get around them. And with battleshock and OC being what they are leaving stragglers isn't as problematic as it used to be. At the moment it feels like it offers you more choices in how to tackle various armies.
2023/05/11 14:43:31
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
What's more simple and easy to reference than the way they've always done it?
"Poisoned Weapon 4+: Unless the target is a vehicle, an unmodified To Wound roll of 4+ is automatically successful."
Why reinvent the wheel?
If I'm following the argument correctly: Because the wound count on everything that was effective against has doubled (or more), while the very wound chart itself has become significantly more wide-ranging in terms of what weapons could damage what (bolters / lasguns / most rank-and-file weapons were completely incapable of hurting MCs before). Splinter weapons have also not seen any increase in their volume of fire / kabalites have not seen a corresponding halving of their points cost.
Spoiler:
While I'm firmly behind the reduced lethality camp, this is a very valid argument. Poison is worthless if it takes something like 800 points of kabalites to put down a single carnifex. I also don't feel there's an elegant solution.
Making Poison some kind of ignores-armor auto-wound hybrid seems like the best answer? I think the best combination has been suggested; something along the lines of Anti-Infantry (5+), Devastating Wounds keywords (if I remember the key words correctly) combination. I think the solution is either reducing the "poison" threshold but making those wounds unsavable, making DE poison far more effective (3+ or even 2+, so that if you hit you're almost always forcing a save), or just massively increasing the RoF of splinter weapons.
None of those solutions are elegant or ideal, but I don't personally see any others
.
It takes 1440 points of kabalites at 24", obviously 720 at 12". It takes 972 points of stationary bolt rifles and 270 bolter rounds, or 2430 points of tactical marines based on modern points and the upcoming screamer killer profile.
Lethality is down, carnifex is tough, small arms aren't supposed to be killing big things and that's the entire point. Yes splinter rifles are boring and feel ineffective but because a kabalite is cheap they're actually far more efficient than a lot of small arms in a world where toughness is up.
Small arms weren't supposed to be killing big things in 5th / 6th / 7th edition either; that was very much the point of a much more punishing 'to wound' chart than we have now.
Poison has been a part of the DE army for as long as they've had one (so basically 5th edition). And while kabalites shouldn't be tooling around casually gunning down monsters with equal or less points in small arms, the "anti monster" specialist army requiring like 45% / 75% of your total points in bare-bones troops to bring down a single monster is absurd. And while no one will field that many points in naked kabalites, numerous special weapons sport the exact same poison profile.
Like it or not poison is a huge part of the DE army identity. It's unacceptable for it to be as worthless as it currently is.
Small arms weren't supposed to be killing big things in 5th / 6th / 7th edition either; that was very much the point of a much more punishing 'to wound' chart than we have now.
Poison has been a part of the DE army for as long as they've had one (so basically 5th edition). And while kabalites shouldn't be tooling around casually gunning down monsters with equal or less points in small arms, the "anti monster" specialist army requiring like 45% / 75% of your total points in bare-bones troops to bring down a single monster is absurd. And while no one will field that many points in naked kabalites, numerous special weapons sport the exact same poison profile.
Like it or not poison is a huge part of the DE army identity. It's unacceptable for it to be as worthless as it currently is.
That isn't quite the entire story though, the inclusion of the Damage characteristic means heavy anti-vehicle weapons are much better at killing monsters now.
In 5th-7th, heavier weapons like a lascannon or melta only made 1 wound. Now they can inflict multiple wounds per failed save. Poison does not need to be a good monster killing weapon because anti-tank weapons are also good at killing monsters now.
Poison is like Gauss post-4th edition, it is mean to be able to inflict some damage on monsters but isn't meant to be an efficient monster killer just like how Necron gauss can take off some wounds of vehicles but they still want dedicated anti-vehicle weapons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/11 15:14:15
2023/05/11 15:18:17
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
It's really weird to see 24 inch conversion beamers. The point of these things was always extremely long range
Also, 18 inch rail rifles? Hope tau get matching nerfs to range (and no more buckets of mortals and regular guns ignoring ++ Sue idiocy). Though, with range of everything going down so much, I am puzzled why bolters and other infantry guns kept 24 inches, reducing these to 18 inch to match would make a lot more sense than turning them into new sniper rifle equivalents...
Mentlegen324 wrote: League Hearthkyn said to be trained to the same degree as many races elite units with extremely reliable, quality equipment so now they're hitting on the same as guardsmen with lasguns. Makes sense....
Yes, it makes sense because handing out 3+ to hit to everyone like candy was insane to begin with. It used to be domain of really elite forces, alas, absurd stat inflation of pet xeno armies of certain GW writers ruined that aspect of the game in last two editions.
Though, now that I look, squatstodes joined orkstodes in 10th with massed S5 and T5 stats everywhere if their troops are any indication. Turns out Space Marines were always fragile snowflakes dreading still breeze others casually shrug off, who knew?
Manfred von Drakken wrote: What's more simple and easy to reference than the way they've always done it?
"Poisoned Weapon 4+: Unless the target is a vehicle, an unmodified To Wound roll of 4+ is automatically successful."
Why reinvent the wheel?
Because in past editions, DE getting access to massed guns that could put tons of wounds on monsters reliably and cheaply quickly led to disappearance of said monsters from the meta. I doubt GW wants to repeat this, especially now that monster durability was buffed. Having second wound value to not completely ruin worth of that expensive upgrade makes a lot of sense.
2023/05/11 15:19:06
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Luck Has. Need Keeps. Toil Earns: At the end of your Command phase, if this unit is within range of an objective marker you control, that objective marker remains under your control, even if you have no models within range of it, until your opponent controls it at the start or end of any turn.
Shock Troops: At the end of your Command phase, if this unit is within range of an objective marker you control, that objective marker remains under your control, even if you have no models within range of it, until your opponent controls it at the start of end of any turn.
So 'bout them "Universal Special Rules" they talked about, 'cause this above looks like old habits already creeping in. Why not just call this rule "Objective Secured", and not write it out each time?
Small arms weren't supposed to be killing big things in 5th / 6th / 7th edition either; that was very much the point of a much more punishing 'to wound' chart than we have now.
Poison has been a part of the DE army for as long as they've had one (so basically 5th edition). And while kabalites shouldn't be tooling around casually gunning down monsters with equal or less points in small arms, the "anti monster" specialist army requiring like 45% / 75% of your total points in bare-bones troops to bring down a single monster is absurd. And while no one will field that many points in naked kabalites, numerous special weapons sport the exact same poison profile.
Like it or not poison is a huge part of the DE army identity. It's unacceptable for it to be as worthless as it currently is.
That isn't quite the entire story though, the inclusion of the Damage characteristic means heavy anti-vehicle weapons are much better at killing monsters now.
In 5th-7th, heavier weapons like a lascannon or melta only made 1 wound. Now they can inflict multiple wounds per failed save. Poison does not need to be a good monster killing weapon because anti-tank weapons are also good at killing monsters now.
Poison is like Gauss post-4th edition, it is mean to be able to inflict some damage on monsters but isn't meant to be an efficient monster killer just like how Necron gauss can take off some wounds of vehicles but they still want dedicated anti-vehicle weapons.
What's the damage stat on a dark lance? I don't have a DE codex more recent than.. I think 7th edition. Off the top of my head I'm guessing it's either 1d6 or d3.
In either case, lances are about as effective as they were before. They can swing a bit but in terms of average and expected output they're not blowing them off the table at rates never before seen. Especially because said carnifex is now getting some kind of save against said lance, and they're also harder for said lance to wound because of the new to-wound chart. Meaning that yes, that DE heavy weapons are also significantly worse at taking out monsters than they used to be.
So you're absolutely right about that not being the whole story. Because even without mentioning how awful poison has become, DE have an even harder time handling monsters than I initially thought.
What's the damage stat on a dark lance? I don't have a DE codex more recent than.. I think 7th edition. Off the top of my head I'm guessing it's either 1d6 or d3.
Currently a dark lance is a D3+3.
2023/05/11 15:35:52
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Irbis wrote: It's really weird to see 24 inch conversion beamers. The point of these things was always extremely long range
Also, 18 inch rail rifles? Hope tau get matching nerfs to range (and no more buckets of mortals and regular guns ignoring ++ Sue idiocy). Though, with range of everything going down so much, I am puzzled why bolters and other infantry guns kept 24 inches, reducing these to 18 inch to match would make a lot more sense than turning them into new sniper rifle equivalents...
Well, escalating effectiveness with range. This version is better for smaller tables. Even with big tables getting the 48" bonus on my contemptor was pretty damn hard.
Tau Railgun won't ignore invuln outright. It will have Devastating Wounds to cover that potential.
2023/05/11 15:37:23
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
GaroRobe wrote: Great. The terminators on their own sprue so I guess we won’t get a multipart kit any time soon…
Eh. We may not see it immediately, until launch boxes and core sets hit saturation, but they're Space Marine Terminators. Its not like they're Obliterators or something
If nothing else, the demand for redone heavy flamers and cyclones will be pretty high by the time Dark Angels roll out in winter.
Plus they have to do a matching TH/SS & LC kit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/11 15:45:51
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/05/11 15:45:44
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Daedalus81 wrote: Tau Railgun won't ignore invuln outright. It will have Devastating Wounds to cover that potential.
Thank the Emperor.
Weapons that ignore Invul saves should be as rare as hen's teeth.
I should prephrase that to say I'm relatively confident that's what will happen. It's likely it will have some other rule to help improve isn't consistency, but no idea what that could end up being. Maybe sustained hits.
2023/05/11 16:05:52
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
What's more simple and easy to reference than the way they've always done it?
"Poisoned Weapon 4+: Unless the target is a vehicle, an unmodified To Wound roll of 4+ is automatically successful."
Why reinvent the wheel?
If I'm following the argument correctly: Because the wound count on everything that was effective against has doubled (or more), while the very wound chart itself has become significantly more wide-ranging in terms of what weapons could damage what (bolters / lasguns / most rank-and-file weapons were completely incapable of hurting MCs before). Splinter weapons have also not seen any increase in their volume of fire / kabalites have not seen a corresponding halving of their points cost.
[spoiler]
While I'm firmly behind the reduced lethality camp, this is a very valid argument. Poison is worthless if it takes something like 800 points of kabalites to put down a single carnifex. I also don't feel there's an elegant solution.
Making Poison some kind of ignores-armor auto-wound hybrid seems like the best answer? I think the best combination has been suggested; something along the lines of Anti-Infantry (5+), Devastating Wounds keywords (if I remember the key words correctly) combination. I think the solution is either reducing the "poison" threshold but making those wounds unsavable, making DE poison far more effective (3+ or even 2+, so that if you hit you're almost always forcing a save), or just massively increasing the RoF of splinter weapons.
None of those solutions are elegant or ideal, but I don't personally see any others.
It takes 1440 points of kabalites at 24", obviously 720 at 12". It takes 972 points of stationary bolt rifles and 270 bolter rounds, or 2430 points of tactical marines based on modern points and the upcoming screamer killer profile.
Lethality is down, carnifex is tough, small arms aren't supposed to be killing big things and that's the entire point. Yes splinter rifles are boring and feel ineffective but because a kabalite is cheap they're actually far more efficient than a lot of small arms in a world where toughness is up.
Small arms weren't supposed to be killing big things in 5th / 6th / 7th edition either; that was very much the point of a much more punishing 'to wound' chart than we have now.
Poison has been a part of the DE army for as long as they've had one (so basically 5th edition). And while kabalites shouldn't be tooling around casually gunning down monsters with equal or less points in small arms, the "anti monster" specialist army requiring like 45% / 75% of your total points in bare-bones troops to bring down a single monster is absurd. And while no one will field that many points in naked kabalites, numerous special weapons sport the exact same poison profile.
Like it or not poison is a huge part of the DE army identity. It's unacceptable for it to be as worthless as it currently is.
It's not worthless, it's just worth less than you want. I don't think we should see 8pt elves blatting a wound off a t12 monster each every turn. Those big monsters are priced to be very resistant to infantry weapons, and they will be. Apart from poison. Like it or not, they're still largely better than any other armies standard gun into big monsters, or t5+.
This is an edition of big things surviving the little things, having critical wounds 4+ would be a huge perk in this environment, definitely worth more than a point of ap on a s3 gun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/11 16:06:17
2023/05/11 16:07:56
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
This Terminator squad is the easy build to throw in starters, like the snapfit assault intercessors and outriders. I expect a proper kit with the rest of the heavy weapons, separate shoulder pads, probably the assault melee weapons.
2023/05/11 16:16:29
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
MajorWesJanson wrote: This Terminator squad is the easy build to throw in starters, like the snapfit assault intercessors and outriders. I expect a proper kit with the rest of the heavy weapons, separate shoulder pads, probably the assault melee weapons.
I hope for that, I don't expect it.
Honestly don't expect much from GW these days, can't be disappointed if you don't have expectations!
MajorWesJanson wrote: This Terminator squad is the easy build to throw in starters, like the snapfit assault intercessors and outriders. I expect a proper kit with the rest of the heavy weapons, separate shoulder pads, probably the assault melee weapons.
I hope for that, I don't expect it.
Honestly don't expect much from GW these days, can't be disappointed if you don't have expectations!
I can’t see them wanting to have these guys as the tactical terminator kit on the shelf next to the old assault one. I could see them just merging them into one duel build kit, just to remove some of the SKU bloat of the range.
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
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