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 Irbis wrote:
So, eldar janitors kept 3+ to hit and 4+ which is beyond idiotic seeing how heavily admech troops were nerfed. They have no business being better than skitarii, especially seeing 3+/4+ niche was occupied by corsairs and other mid grade units, and this pretty much means every eldar unit will be bumped up from this floor with elites cascading to Phil Kelly Special Cheese Wheel levels

This race mechanic is also vastly better than similar Sister one (if only because they get to frontload it from the start and unlike Sisters, they get to turn the useless 1s and 2s into 6s for no cost), and they kept strongest past faction rule that leaves SM oath in the dust on top of it. Gun ranges also weren't nerfed much if at all, and they kept busted stats too (I like how light tank gun has +2S over the best SM AT weapon, heavy laser destroyer, plus mountain of free dice reroll/swaps making it vastly more reliable too because frak you). Oh, and jump/shoot/jump, one of the most annoying and hard to counter for a lot of factions mechanics is back without any unit limitations. Braaavo

Slow down a sec.

Fire Prism doesn't have Heavy and so can't hit on 2s. It also requires an additional prism to focus. Marines also get full reroll to hit and wound on a choice target - Fate Dice do NOT leave that in the dust.

Also, we have been shown a couple sheets for each army, but Sisters look like they can produce a comparable amount of dice, if not more, over the course of a game. Claiming that we know all the interactions for Sisters and their dice is a bit silly.

And not sure where people are coming with this eldar not better than skitarii stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
lso, Necron Warriors lost the AP-1 they'd gained in 8th as a replacement for Gauss, but Eldar get to keep the AP-1 they gained in 9th just because.

Shurikens lost the ability to go up to AP3. Perspective...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
* pours one out for Guide and Doom, yet more victims of removing "bloat" *

Guide and Doom are pretty iconic powers I agree.

Until the eventual Codex, I guess there is not much more to do besides imagine that when the Farseer Branching Fates power is used to convert Fate dice and make a Hit roll 6 it is really Guide in action, and when a Wound roll is converted to a 6 it is a Doom on the enemy.

He just wants to have another yell about Phil Kelly, even though the guy hasn't written rules in nearly a decade now.

Honestly the new system is just a simplified version of the current system, and you just get all your rolls done at the start of the game. I don't see a problem with that, to be honest. Rule seems fine to me.

I think the most interesting part is that the Eldar heavy weapons are not heavy weapons. And the Platform has a separate profile. I guess there's hope for Exarchs yet.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Shurikens lost the ability to go up to AP3. Perspective...

And once upon a time they were superior to Storm Bolters, so I'm fine with them keeping their -1AP.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
* pours one out for Guide and Doom, yet more victims of removing "bloat" *

That seems premature after seeing a single character's rules.

Initially I didn't like that the Farseer's abilities will place them in the backfield more often than not, but I wouldn't want to put a fragile psyker out on the front line so I guess it works.

I just hope it doesn't create too much gun line style play.

It would be interesting to see if they hand those powers out to other seers.

Like the farseer on bike getting doom, or the spiritseer getting guide.

Plus warlocks and councils, and the bike versions.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Initially I didn't like that the Farseer's abilities will place them in the backfield more often than not, but I wouldn't want to put a fragile psyker out on the front line so I guess it works.

I just hope it doesn't create too much gun line style play.

The Autarch better have some good rules otherwise the Farseer's Fate dice manipulation rule is going to make it the clear favorite. It is basically guaranteeing a 6 every turn on one roll.

 Nevelon wrote:
It would be interesting to see if they hand those powers out to other seers.

Like the farseer on bike getting doom, or the spiritseer getting guide.

That's my chief problem with the Jervisification of psychic powers in 10th, the idea that because you're riding a bike, or have Terminator armour, you somehow know power Y rather than power X.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Initially I didn't like that the Farseer's abilities will place them in the backfield more often than not, but I wouldn't want to put a fragile psyker out on the front line so I guess it works.

I just hope it doesn't create too much gun line style play.

Unless they have rules restrictions on who can join wraithguard, I imagine axe wraithblades will be the most popular body guard unit for a farseer. They aren't restricted to using their stuff on their own unit so having them in a tough one to buff others is effective.

Iracundus wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Initially I didn't like that the Farseer's abilities will place them in the backfield more often than not, but I wouldn't want to put a fragile psyker out on the front line so I guess it works.

I just hope it doesn't create too much gun line style play.

The Autarch better have some good rules otherwise the Farseer's Fate dice manipulation rule is going to make it the clear favorite. It is basically guaranteeing a 6 every turn on one roll.

Nothing new there for the Autarchs, sadly enough.
I do wonder if they're going to have fewer 'devastating wound' weapons as a consequence of all these dice shenanigans.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Would not be shocked if they changed it to wounds specifically to make it less powerful, or at the very least as a reaction to the general negativity -1 To Hit abilities recieved... back when modifiers stacked

Or maybe lightning fast reflexes is still a thing and they wanted them to stack without breaking the game again.

Not enamored with this reveal I'm afraid. Its been lurking with others (sorry I just can't get overly excited about combi-weapons) - but this feels like so much flavour and character has been chucked. Sure maybe 9th was mad bloat with 100+ different chapter tactics, 200+ WLT/Relics and 1000+ stratagems (I'm not going to count), but this feels so flat.

I mean Eldar may be mad OP with these rules - but Shuriken Catapults being slightly shorter ranged, assault only bolt rifles doesn't "feel" very exciting. Bright Lances being "Lascannons but with 1 damage" likewise.

Others have complained about this with other psykers - and maybe I'm biased here in not caring about the mon-keigh. But to my mind - despite the considerable expansion of the setting - the Farseer remains one of the big "40k wizards". And this datasheet just isn't. He's just a guy who hands out some helpful buffs. Maybe the jetbike one will have Doom and Guide. But again, it all feels shallow.

Iracundus wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
* pours one out for Guide and Doom, yet more victims of removing "bloat" *

Guide and Doom are pretty iconic powers I agree.

Until the eventual Codex, I guess there is not much more to do besides imagine that when the Farseer Branching Fates power is used to convert Fate dice and make a Hit roll 6 it is really Guide in action, and when a Wound roll is converted to a 6 it is a Doom on the enemy.

That was my thought as well, the Farseers ability is powerful yet generic so you can envision however you want. Trading Guide and Doom for auto 6s seems fair to me, since they look to be trying to lower large unit buffs (Auras and now psychic powers) quite a bit this edition.

Overall like the faction focus, disappointed we didn't see any Aspect Warriors. Anyone remember how many detachments they promised with Index?

Wonder if they're going to "forget" to give the Autarchs the weapon options from both kits again.

Dudeface wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Weird that Skitarii get dropped to a 5+ save while Guardians retain a 4+.

I think the guardians carapace is meant to be better than guardsmen carapace which checks out, the skitarii armour is largely just standard human armour + a robe so 5+ seems ok with 6++ representing they have some disposable organs etc.

So that we're clear:
You're okay with the mesh armored Guardians(they don't have "carapace", which is a specific type of armor) having a 4+ save; which is the same as a Kasrkin or Scion; while not okay with Skitarii having a 4+ save despite wearing carapace armor+featuring bionics?

In the long run, it is what it is...but this whole thing is just weird. It feels like punishment for people abusing the Veteran Cohort and 20 model blobs.

Man, Eldritch Storm sure has seen better days too. These rules all feel so bland.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:


Overall like the faction focus, disappointed we didn't see any Aspect Warriors. Anyone remember how many detachments they promised with Index?

One. You get one Detachment with the free index things.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Wonder if they're going to "forget" to give the Autarchs the weapon options from both kits again.

I mean, they forgot that they gave the Cadian Sergeants an option for a lasgun via the new upgrade sprue and they forgot that they gave the squad access to a medic that same way...so it's possible!

They also forgot that the Kasrkin Sergeant literally gets options in KT and a build specifically in the instructions for a hellgun.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Weird that Skitarii get dropped to a 5+ save while Guardians retain a 4+.

I think the guardians carapace is meant to be better than guardsmen carapace which checks out, the skitarii armour is largely just standard human armour + a robe so 5+ seems ok with 6++ representing they have some disposable organs etc.

So that we're clear:
You're okay with the mesh armored Guardians(they don't have "carapace", which is a specific type of armor) having a 4+ save; which is the same as a Kasrkin or Scion; while not okay with Skitarii having a 4+ save despite wearing carapace armor+featuring bionics?

In the long run, it is what it is...but this whole thing is just weird. It feels like punishment for people abusing the Veteran Cohort and 20 model blobs.

Can you tell the difference between scorpion armour and guardian armour? Because scorpions have had a 3+ save since 1st ed.

Eldar armour has always had the capacity to be good and the new guardians are just as Visibly armoured as the aspects are.

They also originally had better armour than guardsman. So unless you can Make a 4.5+ save, 4+ works well.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Guardians hitting on a 3+ while the Leagues hit on a 4+ really doesn't seem right. The Leagues are meant to be trained to elite standards.

Think of it this way - your base troops went up to T5.

Meanwhile Aeldari seem to have lost Battle Focus and have a base movement stat only one inch more than human heavy infantry. There’s no initiative stat so the only way left to show they have super fast reflexes and decades of training is keeping the WS and BS.

The ‘janitors’ thing isn’t really accurate. Most Guardians have been professionally trained soldiers at least once in their life, and it’s like they are required to keep training afterwards- that could easily be centuries of training and actual experience.

GW brought back 8th edition Expert Crafters (Unparalleled Mastery). It was very busted but I felt necessary in the land of Iron Hands at the time. I'm surprised it will return as GW clearly saw the issue and broke the ability up into two separate traits in 9th edition.

Guardians hiding on an objective providing additional Strands dice looks to be deceptively very good.

Guide and Doom missing is interesting. May show up with the Farseer Skyrunner and/or Eldrad?

Tsagualsa wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:


Overall like the faction focus, disappointed we didn't see any Aspect Warriors. Anyone remember how many detachments they promised with Index?

One. You get one Detachment with the free index things.

Really? *pours one out for all of the Night Lords players sticking to 40k* Good luck waiting for that codex next year guys.

Voss wrote:
I do wonder if they're going to have fewer 'devastating wound' weapons as a consequence of all these dice shenanigans.

I do hope they kept that in mind. They called them out as counting as unmodified rolls, so it exists in some form.

 Hellebore wrote:

Can you tell the difference between scorpion armour and guardian armour? Because scorpions have had a 3+ save since 1st ed.
Eldar armour has always had the capacity to be good and the new guardians are just as Visibly armoured as the aspects are.

Weren't Scorpions considered to be "Heavy Aspect Armour" rather than "Aspect Armour" though?

No Aeldari codex handy to compare stuff to, but isn't there a difference between Scorpions, Reapers, and Fire Dragons vs Banshees, Avengers, Spiders, and Hawks?
From what I can recall, a big chunk of the difference is in the layering of the plates and the quality/thickness of the underlying mesh for the armor. Guardians are using a "standard" mesh suit which is different to Aspect Armour which is different to Heavy Aspect Armour.

They also originally had better armour than guardsman. So unless you can Make a 4.5+ save, 4+ works well.

Guardsmen are a 5+...but we're not talking about them.

We're talking about Skitarii Vanguard, who were dropped from a 4+ to a 5+ for a save with no change to any other stats. I could have understood if there was a native reduction to damage, or a boost in Toughness, an additional Wound or whatever. It feels weird to see, and the only explanations I can come up with are overvaluation of the "Protector Imperative" Doctrina(-1 to AP for enemy attacks while you're in your Deployment Zone).

In the end? There's too many unanswered questions for me to start screaming that the sky is falling. I'm just weirded out by this change for the moment and seeing Guardians retain the same statline that Skitarii Vanguard just got nerfed from, with neither unit getting their squad sizes mentioned, is giving a bit of a "feels bad" moment.

Platuan4th wrote:Wonder if they're going to "forget" to give the Autarchs the weapon options from both kits again.

Hope not, but wouldn't be surprised.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:


Overall like the faction focus, disappointed we didn't see any Aspect Warriors. Anyone remember how many detachments they promised with Index?

One. You get one Detachment with the free index things.

Oof. Was hoping for more than 1, I'm not the biggest fan of Expert Crafters.

Sarigar wrote:GW brought back 8th edition Expert Crafters (Unparalleled Mastery). It was very busted but I felt necessary in the land of Iron Hands at the time. I'm surprised it will return as GW clearly saw the issue and broke the ability up into two separate traits in 9th edition.

Guardians hiding on an objective providing additional Strands dice looks to be deceptively very good.

Guide and Doom missing is interesting. May show up with the Farseer Skyrunner and/or Eldrad?

Yeah Expert Crafters was very, very good in 8th, I was also surprised to see it return. Perhaps they thought the version from 8th is a fine power level compared to other detachment traits.

to whoever was complaining about guardian saves.

we can always go back to the world of 6+ save guardsman with +1 vs blast/templates with the standard xeno mesh being a 5+. so by extension would make ad mech 6+ as well

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Can you tell the difference between scorpion armour and guardian armour? Because scorpions have had a 3+ save since 1st ed.
Eldar armour has always had the capacity to be good and the new guardians are just as Visibly armoured as the aspects are.

Weren't Scorpions considered to be "Heavy Aspect Armour" rather than "Aspect Armour" though?

No Aeldari codex handy to compare stuff to, but isn't there a difference between Scorpions, Reapers, and Fire Dragons vs Banshees, Avengers, Spiders, and Hawks?
From what I can recall, a big chunk of the difference is in the layering of the plates and the quality/thickness of the underlying mesh for the armor. Guardians are using a "standard" mesh suit which is different to Aspect Armour which is different to Heavy Aspect Armour.

They also originally had better armour than guardsman. So unless you can Make a 4.5+ save, 4+ works well.

Spoiler:

Guardsmen are a 5+...but we're not talking about them.

We're talking about Skitarii Vanguard, who were dropped from a 4+ to a 5+ for a save with no change to any other stats. I could have understood if there was a native reduction to damage, or a boost in Toughness, an additional Wound or whatever. It feels weird to see, and the only explanations I can come up with are overvaluation of the "Protector Imperative" Doctrina(-1 to AP for enemy attacks while you're in your Deployment Zone).

In the end? There's too many unanswered questions for me to start screaming that the sky is falling. I'm just weirded out by this change for the moment and seeing Guardians retain the same statline that Skitarii Vanguard just got nerfed from, with neither unit getting their squad sizes mentioned, is giving a bit of a "feels bad" moment.

Ya looks like out of the basic infantry shown for each faction so far skitarii have lost the most. To my eyes they look about as bad as the could. Time will tell but I think admech will have a poor time when indexes drop.

Luckily their codex isent far behind.

I really can't figure out how they thought cyborgs should have the same save as a guardsman. Litteral metal men or dude with flack armor. Sure you say 6++ but why wast ap shot on skitarii? Litterally any old bolter or even lasgun will do fine.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
So, eldar janitors kept 3+ to hit and 4+ which is beyond idiotic seeing how heavily admech troops were nerfed. They have no business being better than skitarii, especially seeing 3+/4+ niche was occupied by corsairs and other mid grade units, and this pretty much means every eldar unit will be bumped up from this floor with elites cascading to Phil Kelly Special Cheese Wheel levels

This race mechanic is also vastly better than similar Sister one (if only because they get to frontload it from the start and unlike Sisters, they get to turn the useless 1s and 2s into 6s for no cost), and they kept strongest past faction rule that leaves SM oath in the dust on top of it. Gun ranges also weren't nerfed much if at all, and they kept busted stats too (I like how light tank gun has +2S over the best SM AT weapon, heavy laser destroyer, plus mountain of free dice reroll/swaps making it vastly more reliable too because frak you). Oh, and jump/shoot/jump, one of the most annoying and hard to counter for a lot of factions mechanics is back without any unit limitations. Braaavo

Slow down a sec.

Fire Prism doesn't have Heavy and so can't hit on 2s. It also requires an additional prism to focus. Marines also get full reroll to hit and wound on a choice target - Fate Dice do NOT leave that in the dust.

Also, we have been shown a couple sheets for each army, but Sisters look like they can produce a comparable amount of dice, if not more, over the course of a game. Claiming that we know all the interactions for Sisters and their dice is a bit silly.

And not sure where people are coming with this eldar not better than skitarii stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
lso, Necron Warriors lost the AP-1 they'd gained in 8th as a replacement for Gauss, but Eldar get to keep the AP-1 they gained in 9th just because.

Shurikens lost the ability to go up to AP3. Perspective...

Fate dice have been miracle dice 2.0 since they came out and I hate them.

Actually look at those 2 mechanics:

Eldar get 12 free dice over the course of a game. Sisters get 10.
Eldar get all 12 at the beginning, sisters get 1. A turn 1 dice has several times the value of a turn 3 dice.
Eldar get 2 'free' rerolls of all of their dice before they even get down to the number of dice sisters are going to have after turn 5.
Eldar get a cheap HQ that lets them turn dice into 6s. Sisters get a big, stupid, expensive special character.
Eldar get shooting weapons that can actually USE their dice for something other than the wound roll.
Eldar get to generate dice from objectives the same as Sisters do, just with a better unit.

 Sarigar wrote:
GW brought back 8th edition Expert Crafters (Unparalleled Mastery). It was very busted but I felt necessary in the land of Iron Hands at the time. I'm surprised it will return as GW clearly saw the issue and broke the ability up into two separate traits in 9th edition.

Rerolls are functionally less effective if you're also using FD on the unit. e.g. You have two shots and you make one succeed - now you only have one chance to fail a roll instead of two.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Quite like the look of Eldar overall. Fire and fade access for wraith units and vehicles is quite lovely to have, especially if you can poke a fire prism out and run away.

The word that comes to mind seeing heavy infantry that was always supposed to be slow getting a rocket engine up their arse and zooming all over the board faster than jump infantry of other races is not 'lovely'. It's .

Ditto with prisms, thanks to stupid, unnerfed gun ranges it's brain dead unit that doesn't require any positioning, just dump them behind heaviest LOS blockers, then poke out one, make it magically fire S18 gun dozen times all over the board, then jump back in before opponent can do anything. What a fun, interactive and balanced mechanic!

 bullyboy wrote:
At least people don’t have to see -3AP on shuriken anymore.

Shurikens "nerfed" from OP crap to 'merely' S4 -1 Assault weapon (which is, for the record, Bolter+, on a platform that is both cheaper and far more reliable in hit/wound than any SM model) is not good, it's merely a step in right direction but compared to past broken gak it looks almost bearable. When in reality, something so efficient put in virtually every other army would be autotake infantry gun eclipsing all competition

And before any of the usual jokers goes 'but muh T3', not only Farseers get to make virtually all S4/5 guns targeting them S3 for free, but not paying for useless defensive statline makes these dudes even more efficient against all comers armies that prepared to kill MEQs only to see their expensive guns overkill and fail to wound. The problem with these eldar rules is not just that they are all bonkers compared to stuff the other armies have, it's also that all of it looks easy to wombo combo into multiple broken interactions wherever you look...