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Could be something like if a squad with a commissar fails battleshock, they lose d3 guardsmen and then count as having passed.

I think I would rather have a cheaper commissar with decent LD, kill and reroll. Not too much trouble to spam them in your army (3 max unless the have multiple types or an advisors rule?). Once a commissar starts creeping towards the cost of a squad, it really is better just to take more men.

Would be nice to allow commissar to modify the failed leadership roll by one for each guardsman executed. Fail by 4? Kill 4 guardsmen and now you pass. 😁

I have no idea why people are so worried about Battleshock. So the unit gets OC 0 and no Stratagems-4-U... big deal, it can move and fight like nothing happened anyway, I guess I will have to use it for that and not to sit on an objective. Extra points if the unit is never meant to sit on an objective and/or it doesn't need Stratagems to wreck face. Losing a Guardsman or two to ignore it feels like an extremely situational benefit for me.

Voss wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
What non-attack psychic powers have we seen so far?

Vortex Terrors from the Chaos Knight Abominant. At the start of the shooting phase, it picks a unit within 12" and they have to take a battleshock test.

Its Warp Storms power in the movement phase is also possibly not a 'psychic attack,' it just deals out mortal wounds on a 3+.

Rules debate on Warp Storms can wait, I'm not digging through the leaked rules atm. But Vortex Terrors absolutely works on SoS, and is the kind of direct mental attack that absolutely should not.

Well good thing they're not immune to the fact it's a giant robot with tentacle arms that wants them dead.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I have no idea why people are so worried about Battleshock. So the unit gets OC 0 and no Stratagems-4-U... big deal, it can move and fight like nothing happened anyway, I guess I will have to use it for that and not to sit on an objective. Extra points if the unit is never meant to sit on an objective and/or it doesn't need Stratagems to wreck face. Losing a Guardsman or two to ignore it feels like an extremely situational benefit for me.

You can't have orders.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
What non-attack psychic powers have we seen so far?

Vortex Terrors from the Chaos Knight Abominant. At the start of the shooting phase, it picks a unit within 12" and they have to take a battleshock test.

Its Warp Storms power in the movement phase is also possibly not a 'psychic attack,' it just deals out mortal wounds on a 3+.

Rules debate on Warp Storms can wait, I'm not digging through the leaked rules atm. But Vortex Terrors absolutely works on SoS, and is the kind of direct mental attack that absolutely should not.

Well good thing they're not immune to the fact it's a giant robot with tentacle arms that wants them dead.

Unsurprisingly, no one claimed they should be, or that they should be immune to battleshock as a general rule. It can easily kill them with its gun or its tentacles, take them to half strength and they can fail a normal test in the command phase.

Its just a weird lore departure that they can get picked out with its targeted psychic attack.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
What non-attack psychic powers have we seen so far?

Vortex Terrors from the Chaos Knight Abominant. At the start of the shooting phase, it picks a unit within 12" and they have to take a battleshock test.

Its Warp Storms power in the movement phase is also possibly not a 'psychic attack,' it just deals out mortal wounds on a 3+.

Rules debate on Warp Storms can wait, I'm not digging through the leaked rules atm. But Vortex Terrors absolutely works on SoS, and is the kind of direct mental attack that absolutely should not.

Well good thing they're not immune to the fact it's a giant robot with tentacle arms that wants them dead.

"Sigh" yeah well done .......except thats not the argument thats being made is it????.

A Chaos Knight has various ways to kill them - but now it has one more because the one thing that singles out Sisters of Silence, their entire specialness is that they are immune to psychic attack but not any more ....nope just use you tricksy psychic stuff on the famously immune nulls...brilliant.....

To be fair, if you have psyker telekinesis...
You could just chuck a large rock at them. Doesn't matter if they're immune to direct psychic powers, that rock is still heavy and fast.

 Trickstick wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I have no idea why people are so worried about Battleshock. So the unit gets OC 0 and no Stratagems-4-U... big deal, it can move and fight like nothing happened anyway, I guess I will have to use it for that and not to sit on an objective. Extra points if the unit is never meant to sit on an objective and/or it doesn't need Stratagems to wreck face. Losing a Guardsman or two to ignore it feels like an extremely situational benefit for me.

You can't have orders.

No issue. Half of the army not getting any buffs is literally a faction ability for the Tau, I won't complain if I have to suck that one up too. From what I'm reading here people talk about Batttleshock like it completely knocks out units (say, old retreat rules style) when it does anything but that.

 JNAProductions wrote:
To be fair, if you have psyker telekinesis...
You could just chuck a large rock at them. Doesn't matter if they're immune to direct psychic powers, that rock is still heavy and fast.

Yes and now they get a 3+ save against that because.....but you can do jedi mind tricks on them whenever you want because.....

 Trickstick wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And gw is moving away from ignore completely. Do you want immune to morale rules back as well?

Which is why I disagree when people say that commissars will kill a guardsmen for ignoring battleshock. I think a higher LD and kill for a reroll, maybe some other buff like immune to modifiers or something. Trying to think of the correct buff level when you are killing a model is hard. You dont want it to be immunity, but a model is worth something.

If I were writing the rule, I'd go with letting Commissars use insane bravery on a unit nearby for 0cp, in exchange for removing a model. It's a strat, so only once a phase, but it's a bargain when the models will be 5ish points rather than a cp

 AtoMaki wrote:
I have no idea why people are so worried about Battleshock. So the unit gets OC 0 and no Stratagems-4-U... big deal, it can move and fight like nothing happened anyway, I guess I will have to use it for that and not to sit on an objective. Extra points if the unit is never meant to sit on an objective and/or it doesn't need Stratagems to wreck face. Losing a Guardsman or two to ignore it feels like an extremely situational benefit for me.

Well for one imagine not getting vp's when your unit whifs battleshock. OC0, no controlling objective.

tneva82 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I have no idea why people are so worried about Battleshock. So the unit gets OC 0 and no Stratagems-4-U... big deal, it can move and fight like nothing happened anyway, I guess I will have to use it for that and not to sit on an objective. Extra points if the unit is never meant to sit on an objective and/or it doesn't need Stratagems to wreck face. Losing a Guardsman or two to ignore it feels like an extremely situational benefit for me.

Well for one imagine not getting vp's when your unit whifs battleshock. OC0, no controlling objective.

That assumes a lot. For one, we don't even know if OC 0 can or cannot control objectives. And even if it can't, it just feels like a once-in-blue-moon situation when a unit specifically sitting on an objective specifically all by its lonesome specifically being able to score specifically fails the Battleshock so I lose 5 VP out of 90something... Not something that will cause sleepless nights for me, to be honest.

Ahyes. Let's assume negative effect doesnt actually matter. Yeah that's obviouly not assuming a lot.

And with the morale values aren't generally easy passes.

Sure you can put multiple units sitting but then battleshock is already doing it's job and you are indeed worrying and are considering it more than just situational and your words and actions are wildly different

Leggy wrote:
If I were writing the rule, I'd go with letting Commissars use insane bravery on a unit nearby for 0cp, in exchange for removing a model. It's a strat, so only once a phase, but it's a bargain when the models will be 5ish points rather than a cp

I think this one is probably on the nose. Or at least close to what I think it will look like.

tneva82 wrote:
Sure you can put multiple units sitting but then battleshock is already doing it's job and you are indeed worrying and are considering it more than just situational and your words and actions are wildly different

If you try to hold an objective with only one unit then you have bigger problems than Battleshock.

Many elite armies do not have a superfluous amount of units to park on objectives. Several non horde armies as well.

Losing Orders is a pretty big deal for Guard, as is losing an average of one-third of the squad if you try to fall back out of melee.

Then you also lose the ability to contest objectives, and can't use stratagems. You might not be using a ton of strats on infantry squads, but they are the bread and butter for holding objectives.

Saying it's all irrelevant and you won't care if a unit is battleshocked seems really short-sighted.

Non-compliant Space Marines will get a faction focus article next week:

RG || DaEntireMac Ŧ 🌵
@daentiremacTTV
·
6 Std.
Are non Codex compliant Space Marines going to get a preview? (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templar)

Warhammer Official
@warhammer
Yes, they will get a focus next week.
Tweet übersetzen
3:52 nachm. · 24. Mai 2023

Source: https://twitter.com/warhammer/status/1661369563311636484

 AtoMaki wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Sure you can put multiple units sitting but then battleshock is already doing it's job and you are indeed worrying and are considering it more than just situational and your words and actions are wildly different

If you try to hold an objective with only one unit then you have bigger problems than Battleshock.

We do explicitly know that they don't. It was stated that OC 0 can't control objectives.

What game are you playing that you don't frequently cap objectives with a single unit? Certainly not 40k? Putting a single troop on a backfield objective has been done for as long as the game's existed. There were also plenty of instances in 9th of 'trade units' where the unit would slaughter the stuff on objective, cap it for that turn, then get blown to bits. It was like...one of the most fundamental strategies of 9th.

Sure, you'd ideally have multiple units capping an objective so it's harder to steal, but a lot of the time that just leads to more of your units being mulched because they're not out of LoS and still losing the objective anyway.

To put it to a sports analogy, what you've essential said is 'well, on the off chance you'd try to shoot the ball AWAY from the goalkeeper, certainly X rule would be a problem!'

I really, genuinely do kind of wonder if you played 9th at all.

Just going back to Orks a sec… So is Makari effectively an extra wound for Ghaz but one with a 2+ invulnerable save?

Also why is he now down to T6 like the same as an Allarus Terminator?

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Just going back to Orks a sec… So is Makari effectively an extra wound for Ghaz but one with a 2+ invulnerable save?

Also why is he now down to T6 like the same as an Allarus Terminator?

Prevents mixed toughness values with meganobz.

Dudeface wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Just going back to Orks a sec… So is Makari effectively an extra wound for Ghaz but one with a 2+ invulnerable save?

Also why is he now down to T6 like the same as an Allarus Terminator?

Prevents mixed toughness values with meganobz.

Nope. Prevents mixed toughness when alone with Ghaz. When characters are joined to units (and there is a clause for multiple-character units, or characters with units of their own), everything rolls against the unit's toughness no matter what (even precision hits), even if there are remaining attacks that spill over to the character(s) when the unit is eliminated. The upside is, characters are entirely untouchable while attached to units, except for [precision] (which allocates attacks after the wounds step).

If you somehow have a T9 character attached to a T4 unit, everything rolls against T4 until after the unit is dead and the current attacks are resolved.

tneva82 wrote:
And gw is moving away from ignore completely. Do you want immune to morale rules back as well?

If it makes sense, sure. ::looks at Rubric Marines::


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I have no idea why people are so worried about Battleshock. So the unit gets OC 0 and no Stratagems-4-U... big deal, it can move and fight like nothing happened anyway, I guess I will have to use it for that and not to sit on an objective. Extra points if the unit is never meant to sit on an objective and/or it doesn't need Stratagems to wreck face. Losing a Guardsman or two to ignore it feels like an extremely situational benefit for me.

Someone didn't read the Chaos Knights article.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
If it makes sense, sure. ::looks at Rubric Marines::

I'm totally okay with Rubrics not being immune if it means a better system. Overall I'll just consider it that the sorcerer doesn't have solid control over them in that moment.

In some cases where units were previously immune to morale checks, such as Rubrics without a Sorcerer to guide them, suicidal Death company lunatics, or Chaos Spawn, it makes more sense for them to be always battleshocked than for them to be immune. Not holding ground, ignoring battle strategy and refusing to break from combat sound exactly what those units would do (for their own various reasons).

Leggy wrote:
In some cases where units were previously immune to morale checks, such as Rubrics without a Sorcerer to guide them, suicidal Death company lunatics, or Chaos Spawn, it makes more sense for them to be always battleshocked than for them to be immune. Not holding ground, ignoring battle strategy and refusing to break from combat sound exactly what those units would do (for their own various reasons).

This is why I think people need to disconnect battleshock from morale - it's no longer about how scared or not something is, it's how effective and coherent they are on the battlefield. Marines won't be scared of incoming fire but after enough casualties it will impair their ability to perform their job.

Necron warriors are mindless, but if they take enough suppressive fire and lose enough troops they just won't function cohesively.

 Hellebore wrote:


They've already said the stats won't change from the cards for the codex and there will just be detachment rules and Crusade.

So ostensibly this is as rules heavy as it gets

They actually said Crusade was in the new Crusade campaign books rather than the Codexes.

Tsagualsa wrote:
Non-compliant Space Marines will get a faction focus article next week:

RG || DaEntireMac Ŧ 🌵
@daentiremacTTV
·
6 Std.
Are non Codex compliant Space Marines going to get a preview? (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templar)

Warhammer Official
@warhammer
Yes, they will get a focus next week.
Tweet übersetzen
3:52 nachm. · 24. Mai 2023

Source: https://twitter.com/warhammer/status/1661369563311636484

That's too bad. I was enjoying the consolidation there