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 Eldarsif wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Battleline units add 3 to the roll and you need a 4+ for cult Ambush? So... Battleline just automatically suceed... couldn't they have just said that instead?

Technically 1s indicate always a failure.

There is nothing in the rulebook that all 1s are failure. They specifically call out 1s failing on hits and wounds, but there is no universal clause so this always passes.

Is it me or does the Patriarch look a bit boring?

Even with the changes to psychic powers I'd have expected a little more.

Instead, he has no psychic shooting abilities at all, and all he really does is force the enemy to make a battleshock test when he's in combat with them.

I don't know, just seems a bit disappointing for the Big Bad of the cult.

Voss wrote:

Second, Cult Ambush. This is horrifyingly dependent on what you're facing. Against a static gunline, its pretty amazing. Against a fast zippy army (or teleporting grey knights), its really terrible.

I don't know, forcing the enemy to chase after a marker that they otherwise wouldn't sounds pretty powerful to me. Could put them in the open or away from an objective.

 vipoid wrote:
Is it me or does the Patriarch look a bit boring?

Even with the changes to psychic powers I'd have expected a little more.

Instead, he has no psychic shooting abilities at all, and all he really does is force the enemy to make a battleshock test when he's in combat with them.

I don't know, just seems a bit disappointing for the Big Bad of the cult.

I think they just went for basic stuff as much as possible just to get placeholders there and figured that well we have a year or two to think about making them interesting...

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Battleline units add 3 to the roll and you need a 4+ for cult Ambush? So... Battleline just automatically suceed... couldn't they have just said that instead?

Technically 1s indicate always a failure.

Except those are only for hit/wound/save rolls where it says so. no universal 1 always fail.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Battleline units add 3 to the roll and you need a 4+ for cult Ambush? So... Battleline just automatically suceed... couldn't they have just said that instead?

Technically 1s indicate always a failure.

That's not what the rulebook says. 1's always failing is specified for hit, wound and save rolls and the hazardous ability - but it doesn't apply to any other rolls in the game.

Patriarch wrote:
Sad the Patriarch loses access to offensive psychic powers (other than making nearby enemies soil their underwear, possibly). But if he leads a unit of Purestrains, that is a lot of devastating wounds going on.

Doesn't seem to be anything in his rules like fanatical devotion, i.e. cultists taking a bullet for him, beyond what every other character gets in the game. He remains fairly squishy for "the" HQ character. Still, I liked the Purestrain profile from the Tyranid reveal, so pretty happy overall.

I will have fun making ambush markers...

The guy is inside unit. Plenty sacrificial wounds.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Is it me or does the Patriarch look a bit boring?

Even with the changes to psychic powers I'd have expected a little more.

Instead, he has no psychic shooting abilities at all, and all he really does is force the enemy to make a battleshock test when he's in combat with them.

I don't know, just seems a bit disappointing for the Big Bad of the cult.

I think they just went for basic stuff as much as possible just to get placeholders there and figured that well we have a year or two to think about making them interesting...

Are unit rules actually changing in codices?

I thought GW said that all they would really be doing was adding alternative detachment abilities for them.

I honestly like the GSC cult rules. They're either going to be wildly overpowered or underpowered, but they're quite thematic.

The only thing I can't stand is: Leader Pistol.

I mean... not enough room in the game for a web pistol and bolt pistol profile? You want to make shotguns and autoguns the same thing then fine I guess, and can fit the power pick, chainsword and regular CCW in there, but "Leader Pistol"? Give me a break...

 Trickstick wrote:
I think I remember spinning Commissar the most. Unless I'm confusing you with someone else with my old brain.

It was a progression. First he was in black and white, then full colour, then 3D!

 vipoid wrote:
Is it me or does the Patriarch look a bit boring?

Even with the changes to psychic powers I'd have expected a little more.

Instead, he has no psychic shooting abilities at all, and all he really does is force the enemy to make a battleshock test when he's in combat with them.

I don't know, just seems a bit disappointing for the Big Bad of the cult.

He wasn't terribly interesting in 9th other than spells, but those were ( basically ) : +1A, Fallback and Shoot, MW, MW, -1 to hit, -1A & Fight Last.

Now his ability amps up purestrains a ton and he can battleshock, but he lost his own advance and charge.


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 Mr Morden wrote:
I think they just went for basic stuff as much as possible just to get placeholders there and figured that well we have a year or two to think about making them interesting...

I don't recall the source ( I think it was the stream ), but it has been said that 95% of datasheets won't change when the codex comes out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I honestly like the GSC cult rules. They're either going to be wildly overpowered or underpowered, but they're quite thematic.

Yea I really get the feeling of this teeming mass of cultists just pouring out from underground a la the Blood Angels show. Pretty great. This is the first one where they made it impossible to mangle units. I'm super curious how they're going to do points for all of this, because it can totally get bad.

I wonder if this version of GSC will be a lower skill ceiling with the forgiving nature. Newer players will struggle mightily against a good GSC player still though.

Removing the markers doesn't take the squad out of Cult Ambush. It merely removes a spawn point.
For the entire game, you're at risk of Genestealer squads respawning if you overstretch yourself.
Playing vs GsC is going to be an anxiety-wracked nightmare.

Question on Characters: They don't return with bodyguard units, but do they still return as individual units? My still-vague understanding of the leader rules tells me they would, and the ruling is just there to prevent TFG's trying to duplication glitch their way to 2 Patriarchs.

So, if the opponent moves within 9” of an ambush marker it’s just removed, and after movement is finished you can deepstrike a unit for each ambush marker that is left.

Seems unintuitive, I’d expect moving within 9” of a marker to trigger an ambush rather than remove a threat.

Well I am just happy that I can Include Dorns for new edition. Was kinda worried that Brood Brothers would be Detachment Rule

Leggy wrote:
Removing the markers doesn't take the squad out of Cult Ambush. It merely removes a spawn point.
For the entire game, you're at risk of Genestealer squads respawning if you overstretch yourself.
Playing vs GsC is going to be an anxiety-wracked nightmare.

Question on Characters: They don't return with bodyguard units, but do they still return as individual units? My still-vague understanding of the leader rules tells me they would, and the ruling is just there to prevent TFG's trying to duplication glitch their way to 2 Patriarchs.

If it has the Cult Ambush rule then maybe, but we can see the Patriarch doesn't.

Leggy wrote:
Removing the markers doesn't take the squad out of Cult Ambush. It merely removes a spawn point.
For the entire game, you're at risk of Genestealer squads respawning if you overstretch yourself.
Playing vs GsC is going to be an anxiety-wracked nightmare.

Question on Characters: They don't return with bodyguard units, but do they still return as individual units? My still-vague understanding of the leader rules tells me they would, and the ruling is just there to prevent TFG's trying to duplication glitch their way to 2 Patriarchs.

Only units with the "cult ambush" ability can come back. I am guessing most characters won't have it. For example, the patriarch does not have it, so he can never come back.

Voss wrote:
Some weird things in there.

First- the cultists. Hybrid firearm covers everything from shotguns to lasguns. Autopistols exist, but because the leader had the option to take autopistol or bolt pistol, 'leader pistols' now exist.

Webbers are 'what the hell?' weapons.
Icons fight with cult ambush in a weird way.


Second, Cult Ambush. This is horrifyingly dependent on what you're facing. Against a static gunline, its pretty amazing. Against a fast zippy army (or teleporting grey knights), its really terrible.

Of course, against anyone, you don't actually want to use the 9" limit, because the enemy inching forward even a bit kills your reinforcements.

Interesting that your guys come on during your opponent's reinforcement step.

This feels potentially interesting, but pretty wild in variation of how it can play out on tables.

While Grey Knights might be zippy this is a good way to drag them to where they don't want to be.

Orks on the otherhand will be quite a good counter.

In general, I think lowering the skill bar a bit from GCs is good - they need to be somewhat accessible to all players and they just weren't, and I think these rules are arguably more fluffy than their 9th gen ones.

But the Patriarch seems... very fragile unless he's a lot cheaper than he used to be.

Leggy wrote:
Removing the markers doesn't take the squad out of Cult Ambush. It merely removes a spawn point.
For the entire game, you're at risk of Genestealer squads respawning if you overstretch yourself.
Playing vs GsC is going to be an anxiety-wracked nightmare.

Question on Characters: They don't return with bodyguard units, but do they still return as individual units? My still-vague understanding of the leader rules tells me they would, and the ruling is just there to prevent TFG's trying to duplication glitch their way to 2 Patriarchs.

Characters would return if they have the 'Cult Ambush' rule, which the Patriarch does not have. Other characters may or may not have it, we don't know.




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Aash wrote:
So, if the opponent moves within 9” of an ambush marker it’s just removed, and after movement is finished you can deepstrike a unit for each ambush marker that is left.

Seems unintuitive, I’d expect moving within 9” of a marker to trigger an ambush rather than remove a threat.

Indeed, i misread it as that at first, because it seems much more logical. I guess it's meant to show the opponent clearing Ambushes and blasting tunnel entrances etc., but it's unintuitive.

Depending on points I might finish my genestealer cult army and use it cos these rules seem fun. I just hope I have enough models to make a 1000 point army in this edition

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea I really get the feeling of this teeming mass of cultists just pouring out from underground a la the Blood Angels show. Pretty great. This is the first one where they made it impossible to mangle units. I'm super curious how they're going to do points for all of this, because it can totally get bad.

I also like how they incorporated crossfire, or a version of it.

Makes me want to build my GSC army which I honestly forgot I had until this very moment.

 Trickstick wrote:

Voss wrote:

Second, Cult Ambush. This is horrifyingly dependent on what you're facing. Against a static gunline, its pretty amazing. Against a fast zippy army (or teleporting grey knights), its really terrible.

I don't know, forcing the enemy to chase after a marker that they otherwise wouldn't sounds pretty powerful to me. Could put them in the open or away from an objective.

Its about maintaining momentum. They've just destroyed a unit or units. Rather than fight them again (and have them around to contest objectives again), the opponent can keep winning.

Worst case they have to deal with a block of stealers or a tank again, not just rabble.
Yes, its possible to overstretch, but fighting units over and over again is more likely to be worse.

 The Phazer wrote:
But the Patriarch seems... very fragile unless he's a lot cheaper than he used to be.

He only last a wound from his prior datasheet. He'll be pretty safe with the purestrains, who typically also have a 4++.

Aash wrote:
So, if the opponent moves within 9” of an ambush marker it’s just removed, and after movement is finished you can deepstrike a unit for each ambush marker that is left.

Seems unintuitive, I’d expect moving within 9” of a marker to trigger an ambush rather than remove a threat.

Well infinite automatic respawns you can't prevent would be bit much?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
But the Patriarch seems... very fragile unless he's a lot cheaper than he used to be.

He only last a wound from his prior datasheet. He'll be pretty safe with the purestrains, who typically also have a 4++.

Is that different to the normal Tyranid ones? They revealed they had a 5++ previously.

Aash wrote:
So, if the opponent moves within 9” of an ambush marker it’s just removed, and after movement is finished you can deepstrike a unit for each ambush marker that is left.

Seems unintuitive, I’d expect moving within 9” of a marker to trigger an ambush rather than remove a threat.

Schrodinger's ambush - you can't tell whether it will or won't happen at that spot until you get close enough to realise that hole in the ground is just an empty ditch.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/30/claim-two-miniatures-and-a-tyranid-coin-at-your-local-store-this-month/

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Aash wrote:
So, if the opponent moves within 9” of an ambush marker it’s just removed, and after movement is finished you can deepstrike a unit for each ambush marker that is left.

Seems unintuitive, I’d expect moving within 9” of a marker to trigger an ambush rather than remove a threat.

Schrodinger's ambush - you can't tell whether it will or won't happen at that spot until you get close enough to realise that hole in the ground is just an empty ditch.

It also means that your opponent can shut down a part of your army from coming back if he manages to clear enough counters - every returning unit needs a counter to come back, and removes that counter, so every counter your opponent removes basically means one unit of yours is permanently locked out of the game (although the GS player gets to decide which one, and can change that if new units go into Ambush). I strongly suspect that one of the Stratagems will allow Ambush units to come back to the game without using a counter, or bring more than one unit back through a single counter.

 Hellebore wrote:
Is that different to the normal Tyranid ones? They revealed they had a 5++ previously.

Yea purestrains have typically been better than genestealers.

For people who have not yet realized:

Agents of the Imperium tomorrow
Variant SM thursday
Imperial Armour/Titans friday

Leggy wrote:
Question on Characters: They don't return with bodyguard units, but do they still return as individual units? My still-vague understanding of the leader rules tells me they would, and the ruling is just there to prevent TFG's trying to duplication glitch their way to 2 Patriarchs.

The Patriarch doesn't have the Cult Ambush ability, quite possible that none of the characters do (but maybe all squads do - Acolytes and Neophytes are better at it). It is worded to stop characters coming back, as leaders in 10th edition appear to be part of their attached unit for the whole game, unlike Independent Characters up to 7th ed. So I don't think characters will ever come back through CA, this is just to make it crystal clear.

Can't see a problem with 2 Patriarchs myself: the original, and his 5th generation offspring who went to start a offshoot on the next continent. No different from having 2 Ultramarines captains or whatever.

“The Leader ability also opens up many exciting possibilities for this faction, with some supporting Characters able to lend their own abilities to units already led by a Primus, Magus, or Acolyte Iconward. From the Fights First ability conferred by the Locus to the Lethal Hits weapon ability a Biophagus brings with them, there are many devious ways to punish the foes of the Cult.

Well it is going to be fun if you can give genestealers Fight First.


Edit. And by the way, Patriach has "Epic Hero" keyword so you can't have second one. There is only one mastermind.