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Patriarch wrote:

Leggy wrote:
Question on Characters: They don't return with bodyguard units, but do they still return as individual units? My still-vague understanding of the leader rules tells me they would, and the ruling is just there to prevent TFG's trying to duplication glitch their way to 2 Patriarchs.

The Patriarch doesn't have the Cult Ambush ability, quite possible that none of the characters do (but maybe all squads do - Acolytes and Neophytes are better at it). It is worded to stop characters coming back, as leaders in 10th edition appear to be part of their attached unit for the whole game, unlike Independent Characters up to 7th ed. So I don't think characters will ever come back through CA, this is just to make it crystal clear.

Can't see a problem with 2 Patriarchs myself: the original, and his 5th generation offspring who went to start a offshoot on the next continent. No different from having 2 Ultramarines captains or whatever.

I guess one or more of the support characters will have interactions with Cult Ambush, even if they do not have the rule themselves. A scout-type character for example could have some rule to remove themself from the table, go to Strategic Reserves, but leave a Ambush Counter behind. Another could be designed to join Brood Brother units and give them Cult Ambush. And so on - if you wanted to, you could have interesting stuff that way.

tneva82 wrote:

Patriarch wrote:
Doesn't seem to be anything in his rules like fanatical devotion, i.e. cultists taking a bullet for him, beyond what every other character gets in the game. He remains fairly squishy for "the" HQ character.

The guy is inside unit. Plenty sacrificial wounds.

True, but that is the same for every other character in 10th edition. And we don't know if he is locked to joining Purestrain units only, which are less expendable than regular cultist scum.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Is that different to the normal Tyranid ones? They revealed they had a 5++ previously.

Yea purestrains have typically been better than genestealers.

Purestrains have been different from Genestealers; pros and cons to each since 8th. I don't think it's a given that Purestrains will get a 4++.

Overall the rules seem cool but the Patriarch is definitely lamer than he used to be. And ever since the Abominant was introduced, GW continues with the "7e Tyranid Monstrous Creature" paradigm of not many attacks, but also low weapon skill; so if he lands a hit it theoretically hurts badly, but the odds are pretty high that he will whiff and an invuln will completely ruin his day.

GW has gotten a lot better at mathhammer but the Abominant is proof that they still have a ways to go.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The only thing I can't stand is: Leader Pistol.

I see it as the rule writers' coping with the "all options must be in the kit" edict. There are worse ways they could have done it I guess.

 vipoid wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Is it me or does the Patriarch look a bit boring?

Even with the changes to psychic powers I'd have expected a little more.

Instead, he has no psychic shooting abilities at all, and all he really does is force the enemy to make a battleshock test when he's in combat with them.

I don't know, just seems a bit disappointing for the Big Bad of the cult.

I think they just went for basic stuff as much as possible just to get placeholders there and figured that well we have a year or two to think about making them interesting...

Are unit rules actually changing in codices?

I thought GW said that all they would really be doing was adding alternative detachment abilities for them.

Maybe - I don't believe them - there will be loads of changes - they will not be able to resist the powercreep.

 Trickstick wrote:
I see it as the rule writers' coping with the "all options must be in the kit" edict. There are worse ways they could have done it I guess.

I don't see how there could be a worse way? They literally rolled an Autopistol, Bolt Pistol and Web Pistol into a single profile, with no additional rules to make it stand out.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Is it me or does the Patriarch look a bit boring?

Even with the changes to psychic powers I'd have expected a little more.

Instead, he has no psychic shooting abilities at all, and all he really does is force the enemy to make a battleshock test when he's in combat with them.

I don't know, just seems a bit disappointing for the Big Bad of the cult.

I think they just went for basic stuff as much as possible just to get placeholders there and figured that well we have a year or two to think about making them interesting...

Are unit rules actually changing in codices?

I thought GW said that all they would really be doing was adding alternative detachment abilities for them.

Maybe - I don't believe them - there will be loads of changes - they will not be able to resist the powercreep.

New stuff will need additional datasheets anyway, and so will existing stuff that gets an update via Killteam or an updated box. They can technically keeping their promise by just adding that instead of replacing things...

One of the free store models for June is a termagant. I guess that’s a good sign the new edition will be out soon

I find it highly unlikely that the units will not change when the codexes come out. Last edition the rules for things like the reanimator were different between the rules book in the launch box and the necron codex. Plus while I've heard them say new detachments will replace old ones on a one in one out basis, I've not heard them say anywhere that units will not change between index cards and codex.

I think I would view the indexes for what they are: launch rules so everyone can play and do everyone is starting from the same place.

 GaroRobe wrote:
One of the free store models for June is a termagant. I guess that’s a good sign the new edition will be out soon

Word on the street is preorders on the 10th, release on the 24th.

 Sotahullu wrote:

And by the way, Patriach has "Epic Hero" keyword so you can't have second one. There is only one mastermind.

Maybe we get an Arch-Patriarch to give the Cult the usual iconic HQ model most other armies have. I hope for a massive, fat Stealer on its throne, with more psychic powers and its personal Magus right beside.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:

And by the way, Patriach has "Epic Hero" keyword so you can't have second one. There is only one mastermind.

Maybe we get an Arch-Patriarch to give the Cult the usual iconic HQ model most other armies have. I hope for a massive, fat Stealer on its throne, with more psychic powers and its personal Magus right beside.

Stratagem to make another Purestrain 'ascend' to Patriarch if the first one is slain.

It's nice that GC can now take the new Guard kits (Rough Riders and artillery) that they were inexplicably unable to in 9th. Probably not very useful, but nice.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Is that different to the normal Tyranid ones? They revealed they had a 5++ previously.

Yea purestrains have typically been better than genestealers.

Purestrains have been different from Genestealers; pros and cons to each since 8th. I don't think it's a given that Purestrains will get a 4++.

Overall the rules seem cool but the Patriarch is definitely lamer than he used to be. And ever since the Abominant was introduced, GW continues with the "7e Tyranid Monstrous Creature" paradigm of not many attacks, but also low weapon skill; so if he lands a hit it theoretically hurts badly, but the odds are pretty high that he will whiff and an invuln will completely ruin his day.

GW has gotten a lot better at mathhammer but the Abominant is proof that they still have a ways to go.

Purestrains have 4++ currently so I imagine it should carry over, but no guarantee of course.

The abominant seems alright. His AP is low enough that any invuln he might face will probably be irrelevant. His mindwyrm gave him rerolls so the reliability of his melee lascannon could be understated here.

 The Phazer wrote:
It's nice that GC can now take the new Guard kits (Rough Riders and artillery) that they were inexplicably unable to in 9th. Probably not very useful, but nice.

I'm not a fan of that. They shouldn't be able to take the DKoK, Cadian, Catachan, or Attilans. They should only be able to take the generics.

Because coming from a named planet provides immunity to genestealers?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


The only thing I can't stand is: Leader Pistol.

I can't stop thinking about that scene from Super Troopers... Gimme a 'leader cola'.

Same thing happened to AdMech, but at least they gave it a good name; Archeotech Pistol. This... Leader Pistol is sheer laziness.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not a fan of that. They shouldn't be able to take the DKoK, Cadian, Catachan, or Attilans. They should only be able to take the generics.

The named regiments are really just representative for different archetypes anyway. Like there are thousands of jungle, siege, or cavalry based regiments.

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that the units will not change when the codexes come out. Last edition the rules for things like the reanimator were different between the rules book in the launch box and the necron codex. Plus while I've heard them say new detachments will replace old ones on a one in one out basis, I've not heard them say anywhere that units will not change between index cards and codex.

I think I would view the indexes for what they are: launch rules so everyone can play and do everyone is starting from the same place.

Launch box rules and codex rules are not really the same scenario. Rules that go in the box have to be printed at a specific time that may not coincide with where the codex is in development. The reanimator was also a new unit to the game.

The major difference here is that GW is making the datasheets freely available ( to start ) so they don't need to put rules in the box before hand if they don't want to. The 10th edition datasheets are more complex than the 8th edition ones.

None of the sheets we've seen have been less complex than the ones in 9th barring psychic options. Even Ahriman was 'rerolls and rerolls' and is now '+1 to wound and a free cabal'.

Voss wrote:
Because coming from a named planet provides immunity to genestealers?

Look at that non-pickable list. Commissars(lore actually has had them being a common vector for GSC and Chaos corruption of regiments!), Preachers(same as Commissars--they're a common vector for GSC and Chaos corruption of regiments), Ogryn and Ratlings, and Tempestus.

Unless there's an element missing("can't take any keyworded units"), it's just a big ol' "feels bad" for a Guard player when someone else can roll up with something equivalent to your army, plus the cherrypicked Best Units(tm) from your army filling any gaps their army has to begin with.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not a fan of that. They shouldn't be able to take the DKoK, Cadian, Catachan, or Attilans. They should only be able to take the generics.

The named regiments are really just representative for different archetypes anyway. Like there are thousands of jungle, siege, or cavalry based regiments.

Oh cool, well if my army is "just representative for different archetypes" then I guess GSC are just "representative for different archetypes" of Conscripts, and the whole army should be able to be taken by Guard, right?

If GSC players want the named Guard units, they should play Guard. It's as simple as that.

Guard in Genestealer Cult armies don't benefit from the Born Soldiers rule given by the Combined Regiment Detachment and they're excluded from both Cult Ambush and They Came From Below as well.

Guard units in GSC armies aren't as powerful as the ones in pure Guard armies - so that should mitigate any "feels bad".

 Kanluwen wrote:
Oh cool, well if my army is "just representative for different archetypes" then I guess GSC are just "representative for different archetypes" of Conscripts, and the whole army should be able to be taken by Guard, right?

If GSC players want the named Guard units, they should play Guard. It's as simple as that.

If you want to make a GSC army as a local militia supporting a Guard regiment, or make them represent frateris militia or something, why not?

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Oh cool, well if my army is "just representative for different archetypes" then I guess GSC are just "representative for different archetypes" of Conscripts, and the whole army should be able to be taken by Guard, right?

If GSC players want the named Guard units, they should play Guard. It's as simple as that.

If you want to make a GSC army as a local militia supporting a Guard regiment, or make them represent frateris militia or something, why not?

Which has what to do with GSC getting access to Kasrkin, DKoK, Cadian, Catachan, and Attilan Rough Riders?

This isn't your RP session. This is just silly. This would be like if Dire Avengers could go in Drukhari and people just shrugged it off, saying "Dire Avengers are just representative of different archetypes".

No. They're a specific unit, with a specific history, and a specific frame of reference to be made.

Both sides of this argument should chill - it's another instance where gameplay aspects dictate that some stuff is a no-go, although you could easily justify it from the background. If you want to play stuff like that narratively, provided you're not cheesy about it and your opponent is not overly dickish. Maybe some day it gets support as a specific detachment, or in a narrative supplement, or something like that. Before that, what remains is the option to talk it through with your opponents like a grownup.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Look at that non-pickable list. Commissars(lore actually has had them being a common vector for GSC and Chaos corruption of regiments!), Preachers(same as Commissars--they're a common vector for GSC and Chaos corruption of regiments), Ogryn and Ratlings, and Tempestus.

I actually agree there, that non-pickeble list is very arbitrary and should be limited to only named characters.

... something tells me that wasn't your argument.

 Tyran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Look at that non-pickable list. Commissars(lore actually has had them being a common vector for GSC and Chaos corruption of regiments!), Preachers(same as Commissars--they're a common vector for GSC and Chaos corruption of regiments), Ogryn and Ratlings, and Tempestus.

I actually agree there, that non-pickeble list is very arbitrary and should be limited to only named characters.

... something tells me that wasn't your argument.

Not unless your argument is that everything in the GSC book should be able to be taken as Auxilia by Militarum.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Look at that non-pickable list. Commissars(lore actually has had them being a common vector for GSC and Chaos corruption of regiments!), Preachers(same as Commissars--they're a common vector for GSC and Chaos corruption of regiments), Ogryn and Ratlings, and Tempestus.

I actually agree there, that non-pickeble list is very arbitrary and should be limited to only named characters.

... something tells me that wasn't your argument.

Not unless your argument is that everything in the GSC book should be able to be taken as Auxilia by Militarum.

Yes, you may take units of standard humans with some neither here nor there upgrades who cannot receive orders, benefit from born soldiers or wtfever it's called or embark on any transports. Sounds like something you'd be queueing up for.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Is it me or does the Patriarch look a bit boring?

Even with the changes to psychic powers I'd have expected a little more.

Instead, he has no psychic shooting abilities at all, and all he really does is force the enemy to make a battleshock test when he's in combat with them.

I don't know, just seems a bit disappointing for the Big Bad of the cult.

I think they just went for basic stuff as much as possible just to get placeholders there and figured that well we have a year or two to think about making them interesting...

Are unit rules actually changing in codices?

I thought GW said that all they would really be doing was adding alternative detachment abilities for them.

Maybe - I don't believe them - there will be loads of changes - they will not be able to resist the powercreep.

New stuff will need additional datasheets anyway, and so will existing stuff that gets an update via Killteam or an updated box. They can technically keeping their promise by just adding that instead of replacing things...

With the unit cards remaining the same with Codexes, I'd guess that new units added during 10th when Codexes may come with the datacard inside the box, so players can just add them onto their existing cards.

I've noticed that the newest character models releases from GW are now coming in small boxes rather than blister packs, so that format might be the allow space to fit the card.

Dudeface wrote:

Yes, you may take units of standard humans with some neither here nor there upgrades who cannot receive orders, benefit from born soldiers or wtfever it's called or embark on any transports. Sounds like something you'd be queueing up for.

I literally argued that Conscripts should have been Auxilia to avoid getting Orders, so yeah. I would be.

It's just such a weird and arbitrary 180 from the FAQ they rushed out when the new Guard dex dropped.

Add the following to this section:
‘You cannot include any of the following units in a Brood
Brothers Detachment:
• Named characters (i.e. those that can only be included once
in your army)
• Cadian Castellan
• Cadian Command Squad
• Regimental Attachés and Bodyguards
• Cadian Shock Troops
• Death Korps of Krieg
• Catachan Jungle Fighters
• Kasrkin
• Regimental Preacher
• Attilan Rough Riders
• Field Ordnance Battery

I'm 100% okay with the FOBs going to the Brood Brothers. I'm 100% okay with creating a "Grenadiers" entry that's basically just Kasrkin -1 that can go to them, a "Combat Engineers" that's the Krieg version -1, "Rough Riders", etc.

I just don't think it okay for the named versions to be able to be taken by Brood Brothers. It ruins what little flavor Guard just got.

The idea GW isn't going to change stuff in codexes is so contrary to the last 25 years its hard to take it serious.

I'll be amazed if "army rule+detachment rule" makes it much beyond say August 2024.