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 lord_blackfang wrote:
The scripted enthusiasm is pretty cringe.

Yeah, especially Tyranid player was annoying to hear. Like some 5 year old screaming kid.

 Dysartes wrote:
I'll be amused if setting "the community" on the developer results in BattleScribe going away permanently.

You still think BattleScribe is piracy?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
I'll be amused if setting "the community" on the developer results in BattleScribe going away permanently.

You still think BattleScribe is piracy?

I think it's more that "the community" is a fickle beast and has capacity for eyewatering toxicity and hostility. By taking their toys away the owner might get abused into just clearing off permanently.

Dudeface wrote:
Not entirely on topic but of high relevance, spreading the word on Battlescribe:

Spoiler:

Which means, yes, we may be stuck with the GW app or pen/paper for a while.

The whole rhetoric around the developer is amusing to me. Yes, he does the bare minimum required to keep the app on the two big app stores so he can keep making money for doing basically nothing. But if he's such a lazy leech why has nobody managed to create a rival app in the decade-plus since BS became the de facto standard? There have been - and currently are - numerous potential replacements but none have ever come to anything. If the data authors really want to see change they need to stop developing new data repositories for BS and the revenue would dry up pretty much overnight. Eventually BS will die because it's just too much effort to keep adapting the data for fundamental shifts in the game's rules. It may be that this happens for 10th.

Everyone who wants BS to continue seems to have been happy to keep relying on it all this time to make their lives easier. That's not the developer's fault.

Slipspace wrote:
... But if he's such a lazy leech why has nobody managed to create a rival app in the decade-plus since BS became the de facto standard? ...

Clearly a statement made by somebody that has no idea what it takes to create an app similar to BS. It's not as easy, I'm sure there are plenty of developers in the community that could do it, but it takes time. And if you have a job (and/or kids) it's simply not doable. I have not looked into other tools and their data formats, but even with the faults it has, BS I think it has been one of the few tools that actually could do the job in a way that also allowed the community to contribute, not being a closed data format.

Slipspace wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Not entirely on topic but of high relevance, spreading the word on Battlescribe:

Spoiler:

Which means, yes, we may be stuck with the GW app or pen/paper for a while.

The whole rhetoric around the developer is amusing to me. Yes, he does the bare minimum required to keep the app on the two big app stores so he can keep making money for doing basically nothing. But if he's such a lazy leech why has nobody managed to create a rival app in the decade-plus since BS became the de facto standard? There have been - and currently are - numerous potential replacements but none have ever come to anything. If the data authors really want to see change they need to stop developing new data repositories for BS and the revenue would dry up pretty much overnight. Eventually BS will die because it's just too much effort to keep adapting the data for fundamental shifts in the game's rules. It may be that this happens for 10th.

Everyone who wants BS to continue seems to have been happy to keep relying on it all this time to make their lives easier. That's not the developer's fault.

A) it's not overnight process to make comparable universal software.
b) for a while they hoped developer would actually develop bs
C) fyi replacement IS inw process

But really question is whom you support. Those that give you something or those who doesn't. bs "developer" doesn"t.

MoD_Legion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
... But if he's such a lazy leech why has nobody managed to create a rival app in the decade-plus since BS became the de facto standard? ...

Clearly a statement made by somebody that has no idea what it takes to create an app similar to BS. It's not as easy, I'm sure there are plenty of developers in the community that could do it, but it takes time. And if you have a job (and/or kids) it's simply not doable. I have not looked into other tools and their data formats, but even with the faults it has, BS I think it has been one of the few tools that actually could do the job in a way that also allowed the community to contribute, not being a closed data format.

You're missing the point. I know exactly how hard it is to create an app like BS. That's why it's a little rich to criticise the BS developer after they did that very thing. On the one hand we're supposed to vilify the developer for not doing enough to support BS while on the other hand nobody's been willing or able to make a viable replacement. The developer is getting rewarded for doing something nobody else has managed to replicate in over 10 years. I don't really see a problem with that, and certainly not one that warrants the amount of vitriol that seems to come his way considering you can still use the app without subscribing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
But really question is whom you support. Those that give you something or those who doesn't. bs "developer" doesn"t.

That's an absurd statement. He literally created the entire app a large part of the community relies on to make army lists.

Slipspace wrote:

MoD_Legion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
... But if he's such a lazy leech why has nobody managed to create a rival app in the decade-plus since BS became the de facto standard? ...

Clearly a statement made by somebody that has no idea what it takes to create an app similar to BS. It's not as easy, I'm sure there are plenty of developers in the community that could do it, but it takes time. And if you have a job (and/or kids) it's simply not doable. I have not looked into other tools and their data formats, but even with the faults it has, BS I think it has been one of the few tools that actually could do the job in a way that also allowed the community to contribute, not being a closed data format.

You're missing the point. I know exactly how hard it is to create an app like BS. That's why it's a little rich to criticise the BS developer after they did that very thing. On the one hand we're supposed to vilify the developer for not doing enough to support BS while on the other hand nobody's been willing or able to make a viable replacement. The developer is getting rewarded for doing something nobody else has managed to replicate in over 10 years. I don't really see a problem with that, and certainly not one that warrants the amount of vitriol that seems to come his way considering you can still use the app without subscribing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
But really question is whom you support. Those that give you something or those who doesn't. bs "developer" doesn"t.

That's an absurd statement. He literally created the entire app a large part of the community relies on to make army lists.

They get angry because he only earns the money off the back of the data authors who get nothing.

Likewise there's a degree of social change and sunken cost fallacy to get past, people are used to BS, they're used to the output formats, why change to another when they already use that one.

BS might collapse due to a lack of updates at this point by sounds of it, I'm sure that's not the owners fault either, but you'll praise them if they make a few small changes and clear off for another 4 years.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You still think BattleScribe is piracy?

BS itself is not
community adding all the rules for free to an army builder pretty much is
not needing to buy any rules at all because you have an app that provides them for free was a big point playing 40k for a lot of people

and why a lot did not care about rules being obsolete very short after release or a codex being a mess, they got it for free anyway

so this will be interesting for 10th if people don't get their rules for free with the army builder actually need to pay for it

Dudeface wrote:


They get angry because he only earns the money off the back of the data authors who get nothing.

Then they either need to accept that's the situation or stop making the updates. You can't complain about the guy making all this money for doing nothing while you're the ones enabling that by keeping the product relevant.

Dudeface wrote:
Likewise there's a degree of social change and sunken cost fallacy to get past, people are used to BS, they're used to the output formats, why change to another when they already use that one.

BS might collapse due to a lack of updates at this point by sounds of it, I'm sure that's not the owners fault either, but you'll praise them if they make a few small changes and clear off for another 4 years.

I couldn't care less about the BS developer. Personally I think BS is one of the clunkiest, least user-friendly apps I've encountered and the default output is next to unreadable. If it collapses it will be the developer's "fault", though I think a word like "choice" might be better here. They developed it, they own the code, they can do what they want with it, including letting it die.

Slipspace wrote:
You're missing the point. I know exactly how hard it is to create an app like BS. That's why it's a little rich to criticise the BS developer after they did that very thing. On the one hand we're supposed to vilify the developer for not doing enough to support BS while on the other hand nobody's been willing or able to make a viable replacement. The developer is getting rewarded for doing something nobody else has managed to replicate in over 10 years. I don't really see a problem with that, and certainly not one that warrants the amount of vitriol that seems to come his way considering you can still use the app without subscribing.

people are willing to make replacements
but there are more people providing the data for BS for various reasons, so people don't use the alternatives because BS still get the job done
even when the original creators for data went to the alternative, people rather asked for someone else to update the BS data rather than switching to the new app

and with 40k changing it gets harder to work around the problems the app has because it was not designed to handle those things

and the only support the one person that can change things has done in the recent years was keeping his credit card up to date to stay in the app stores, while those that do the work get nothing, even if they have provided an alternative (but get all the hate if 40k is not up to date on release day)

 kodos wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You still think BattleScribe is piracy?

BS itself is not
community adding all the rules for free to an army builder pretty much is
not needing to buy any rules at all because you have an app that provides them for free was a big point playing 40k for a lot of people

and why a lot did not care about rules being obsolete very short after release or a codex being a mess, they got it for free anyway

so this will be interesting for 10th if people don't get their rules for free with the army builder actually need to pay for it

Wahapedia will still exist - so people that don't pay for rules now still won't in the future.

do not underestimate how much impact an army builder with rules included has
having a pdf or printable data card is one thing, not being able to look up rules while you are clicking a list together another

there is a reason why all points only army builders for 40k are not successful and hardly used
BS is one of the worst app for list building, but people use it for a reason and user friendliness is not one of it

Legends and Forge World in 10th Edition:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/legions-and-legends-warhammer-the-horus-heresy-models-in-games-of-warhammer-40000/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=the-horus-heresy&utm_content=hh40k01062023&fbclid=IwAR36tNlXD0L6bfbsY4T_MKex_czWCvzfCxbDc-SDK8UU8woNb5iskr0_C0E_aem_th_AbohI0fnN07jUAXWYDPnXsmdEvUmJGR9DOk2npvqUzOKFEwGdysmbIa6GId9mbPqNSc

 kodos wrote:
people are willing to make replacements
but there are more people providing the data for BS for various reasons

Are there actually any alternatives that are cross-platform and with an open data format? The ones I have seen over the years where almost exclusively usable on 1 platform or where even more unusable from a data editing perspective than BS.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/legions-and-legends-warhammer-the-horus-heresy-models-in-games-of-warhammer-40000/

Big list of Horus Heresy Space Marine units confirmed as moving to Legends:

Leviathan, Contemptor, and Deredeo Dreadnoughts
Kratos, Sicaran, Spartan, Cerberus, and Typhon Tanks
Certain variants of the Land Raider, the Vindicator, and the Whirlwind
Xiphon Interceptors, Fire Raptors, Storm Eagles, and Storm Birds
Legion Support Weapons
Fellblades, Falcions, Mastodons
Javelins, Dreadnoughts and Deathstorm Drop Pods
Secutarii Hoplites and Peltasts, and Terrax-pattern Termites
Decimators, Greater Blight Drones, Blood Slaughterers, Greater Brass Scorpions, Kytan Ravagers, the Kharybdis Assault Claw, and the Dreadclaw Drop Pod


Custodes and Knight units will be maintained normally.

Extremely interesting.
Kind of a bummer about Secutarii.

lol, literally all of the actual decent looking Daemonengines in the shadowrealm....
Congrats gw.

Weird to throw all the cool Daemon engines are now Legends of the Horus Heresy when they barely showed up then. If you're gonna shelve them then just do it, don't make up some paper-thin fluff excuse for it.

I do find the "This doesn't apply to the new kit we're trying to sell you" caveat a little amusing though.

 Asmodai wrote:
I do find the "This doesn't apply to the new kit we're trying to sell you" caveat a little amusing though.

I dunno, I read that as "some new Heresy units will get Legends rules and some won't get any 40k rules at all."

Charax wrote:
Weird to throw all the cool Daemon engines are now Legends of the Horus Heresy when they barely showed up then. If you're gonna shelve them then just do it, don't make up some paper-thin fluff excuse for it.

It's also full of Stupid:

Balance is really important for many players, and us too*1 – especially for competitive events. You’ve probably noticed that the Warhammer: The Horus Heresy range has been expanding recently, and will continue to do so. This means that Space Marines armies in Warhammer 40,000 (who are already, let’s be honest, spoiled for choice) have been receiving even MORE options to pick from, and balancing this ever increasing range of miniatures for competitive games has become unwieldy.*2

*1 no, demonstrably untrue, considering cut content sold separately, artificial datasheet bloat etc.
*2 I didn't realise that ALL THE DAEMONENGINES are SM units. Please tell me more GW.

 Asmodai wrote:
I do find the "This doesn't apply to the new kit we're trying to sell you" caveat a little amusing though.

applies to the old kits they are selling as well, at least the Knight ones.

I'm almost glad i didnt go and buy a HH Contemptor for my deathwatch, now. it would have been a shame to buy, paint and assemble the thing JUST in time for it to be non-legal.


that said, we will have to wait and see what the codex: space marines version of the Contemptor can carry......

The Drop Pods, Greater Blight Drones and Brass Scorpions are weird. Those are absolutely supposed to be 40k models, not 30k ones.

I actually agree with the rest of it generally. There's a few I think are a bit odd - Chaos Legions should probably be able to take Fellblades given there's not a 40k superheavy equivalent for them really, and superheavies aren't really an issue in competitive games anyway.. But by and large there have been far too many issues with the Dreadnaught variations, and making them "counts as" is absolutely the right thing to do for tournaments.

I have to think that Custodes remaining valid is a big hint that the non-Marine HH army that is getting a load of plastic models next year is them.

MoD_Legion wrote:

 kodos wrote:
people are willing to make replacements
but there are more people providing the data for BS for various reasons

Are there actually any alternatives that are cross-platform and with an open data format? The ones I have seen over the years where almost exclusively usable on 1 platform or where even more unusable from a data editing perspective than BS.

Rosterizer and Phalanx
but don't know what the current state of those projects is

It's not just Dreadnought variations, Dreadnoughts are listed too.

Looks like venerable ol' stumpy isn't in the main range anymore, relegated to Legendhood.

All Is Primaris

Balance is really important for many players, and us too – especially for competitive events. You’ve probably noticed that the Warhammer: The Horus Heresy range has been expanding recently, and will continue to do so. This means that Space Marines armies in Warhammer 40,000 (who are already, let’s be honest, spoiled for choice) have been receiving even MORE options to pick from, and balancing this ever increasing range of miniatures for competitive games has become unwieldy.

Well they are not at all wrong.....

 Mr Morden wrote:

Balance is really important for many players, and us too – especially for competitive events. You’ve probably noticed that the Warhammer: The Horus Heresy range has been expanding recently, and will continue to do so. This means that Space Marines armies in Warhammer 40,000 (who are already, let’s be honest, spoiled for choice) have been receiving even MORE options to pick from, and balancing this ever increasing range of miniatures for competitive games has become unwieldy.

Well they are not at all wrong.....

"that is why we remove all CSM options for actual decent looking daemonengines" GW 1.6.2023

I can't disagree with their decision, I suspect it'll hack off a fair few people in the process though.

I also wonder if we'll see people seeing more of a divide between competitive and matched so they get to use all their toys.

Dudeface wrote:
I can't disagree with their decision, I suspect it'll hack off a fair few people in the process though.

I also wonder if we'll see people seeing more of a divide between competitive and matched so they get to use all their toys.

I can tell you to what this will lead for CSM players. They will ever more be encouraged to play either HH and run their decimators etc. maybee as dark mech allies or in their forces. Or just outright stop bothering with GW.