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EviscerationPlague wrote:
What's the point of making Enhancements cost points if no other upgrades cost points?

Plausible deniability that you didn't just pl-ified the pointssystem

Charax wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 oni wrote:
Holy feth! The Rules Commentary is longer than the fething Core Rules. What the literal feth?!?!?!

I would recommend trip to check your evesight if you think 18 pages longer than 61

The points pdf is 30 pages mate.

Also, I reckon the meant the volume of content rather than the literal page count.

It's also not a Rules Commentary, it's The Rules, Part 2. Usually a 'commentary' does not contain definitions, binding stipulations and so on.

It's "Please God let us call it anything other than an Errata/FAQ, it's gonna look a bit bad if we need corrections/clarifications that are 1/3 of the size of the actual rules before the game is even released, call it a "Designer's Commentary" or something, that way we can style it out like these were obviously the only way to correctly interpret the rules and it isn't down to our shoddy work or lack of proofreading, it's user error on the part of the stupid players that picked up on the mistakes ambiguities. Yes, that'll do it, Designer's Commentary..."

Yeah, this, obviously. Whether or not e.g. stuff stacks or not is not the domain of a 'commentary', it's a necessary part of the core rules, which they omitted/forgot, because it is clear in their mind, so they need to 'commentary' it in after the fact.

Let's go through SoB, using Marines as a baseline.

Characters:
Morvenn Vahl, Celestine, Dialogus: All good.

Palatine: Incredibly overpriced compared to the vastly superior...any Space marine character, still useful.

Junith: ALSO about 25pts too expensive. Pretending she's as good as a Librarian is LAUGHABLE. At least she's useful.

Triumph. It's a trap model. It's going to trick people into investing 700+ points into a wombo combo that's going to get instantly shelved by 1 unit of (120 fething PTS) Devastator marines.

EVERY OTHER CHARACTERS: Completely useless. ALL OF THEM are DOUBLE what they should be. Aestred is SEVENTY?! SEVENTY?! IN WHAT WORLD?!

Arcos: 50pts too expensive to be useful.

BSS: A BSS squad is 110pts. A tactical squad, which has double the stats and FAR better upgrade options, is 175. If Tacs are 175, Sisters should be at 80.

Sacresants: 130pts. Desolators are 120pts and will kill the whole unit per turn. Should be 90.

Dominions: All of their rules make you want to use Storm Bolters, but if you do, you're a moron. 130pts. Eradicators are 95. Should be 80 with an upcharge for meltaguns.

Exorcist. Fine, Surprisingly.

Immolator: 30pts more expensive than a Razorback for no Earthly reason. Should be 30pts cheaper.

Mortifiers: 2x what they should be.
Pengines: 2x what they should be.

Paragons: Somehow went UP. Asinine when there's at least 10 space marine units that can kill them in one turn out of deepstrike. Should be 200.

Castigator. Somehow the same price as the Gladiator Lancer despite the Lancer being able to basically guarantee a one turn kill and a castigator being AP-1. Also the Lancer having 1 more wound.

Repentia being 150 despite getting absolutely murdered by the change to overwatch.

Retributor squad: 130pts SEEMS like it should be good for 4 Multimeltas...until you see that Eradicators are NINETY-FIVE.

Seraphim: 140. Even with double the amount of Pistols, good joke.

Zephryim 140: This would actually be fair if every marine unit wasn't twice the stats for half the price.

Novitiates 90: 20pts too expensive. ALL of their unit upgrades require you to give up melee attacks.

Rhino: 6+ Invul apparently worth more than Oath of Moment. Who knew?

Also, Every unit is priced assuming you maxed out on the best possible weapon. Which means that bring Flamers, Stormbolters, or Heavy Bolters, makes you a moron.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
What's the point of making Enhancements cost points if no other upgrades cost points?

Yeah, that's just weird. 9th had a real problem with WLT and relics often being wildly different in power both in one book and between books, exacerbated by them being free. So charging for them makes sense as it allows you to better reflect how good they actually are. Then they make all equipment free

EviscerationPlague wrote:
What's the point of making Enhancements cost points if no other upgrades cost points?

Some of the enhancements are huge - changing your army or detachment rule huge. Or bringing back a smash character.
Even GW can't pretend those are completely free.

They need to re-design the range if they're going to make upgrades free, the costings used to make a big difference to balance. Who's taking a laspistol or bolt pistol on their Cadian Castellan when a plasma pistol is free? Stupid.

Games Workshop wrote:Rich from the Studio says: “Unit sizes are now much easier to manage. Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box, so you won’t need to agonise over how to include all of the models you’ve bought. It also helps to quickly understand the strength of a full squad at a glance, and makes list-building far quicker and simpler.

Games Workshop wrote:“Unit sizes are now much easier to manage. Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box, so you won’t need to agonise over how to include all of the models you’ve bought.

Games Workshop wrote:“Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... box...

*loudly clears throat*

Like, really really loudly.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

They have an idea - it just doesn't jive with our current sensibilities. To some degree upgrades costing points doesn't matter much and they just make us feel good, but some things might deserve a bump. At the same time it feels like we're still in beta and we're going to find out what things need those bumps.

sorry Daed but i really can't agree with the idea that upgrades costing points doesnt matter. Its the core concept of balance, different weapons that are straight up better are NOT worth the same points.

It works with AoS because AoS has tradeoffs for every options

sword
1" range, 3 attacks, 3+ to hit

spear
2" range, 3 attacks, 4+ to hit

there is no world where a lascannon and a boltgun are worth the same

Which is why I imagine that the lascannon(or equivalent) is baked into the total point cost. I mean, we have stronger weapons in AoS which usually amounts to 1 in 10 carrying it. I imagine GW wants something similar here.

so why make taking jsut a bolter an option then? Its nothing but a noobtrap

Slipspace wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
What's the point of making Enhancements cost points if no other upgrades cost points?

Yeah, that's just weird. 9th had a real problem with WLT and relics often being wildly different in power both in one book and between books, exacerbated by them being free. So charging for them makes sense as it allows you to better reflect how good they actually are. Then they make all equipment free

So, in the interest of breaking up the justified doom and gloom...

It will lead to community/tournament points lists, right? Right now, this is basically unplayable on a competitive level, and if GW won't provide, somebody (i.e. somebody not part of their 'World Championship' programme) is going to set a points standard?

Nice to see the issue with Belakor in CSM with Abaddon has been clarified.

So let me get this straight... I could take a Baal Predator naked, or with two sponsons and full additional weapon upgrades... for the same points? Or a full unit of Death Company Marines with boltgun/CCW, or power weapon and plasma pistol... for the same points?

By the way, in regards to "no model no rules" and unit upgrade restrictions based on what comes in a box: a DC box does not come with the parts required to build such a "maxed out" unit at all.

That's pants-on-head stupid.

Tsagualsa wrote:
Lol, the most needed definition:

Just After: If a rule is triggered ‘just after’ something has happened,
it is resolved before anything else happens. For example, if a rule
is triggered ‘just after’ a unit selects targets for its attacks, that
rule is resolved before those attacks are resolved. The triggering of
such rules can therefore interrupt normal sequences such as the
attack sequence or the charge sequence.

so no bringing back a regiment unit that dies 3 games ago?

Or an infantry squad, which now gives you the option of 2 lascannon teams *for free*. Or a heavy weapons squad, which can field 3 lascannons for free. I mean, what are they smoking at GW?

 Darnok wrote:
So let me get this straight... I could take a Baal Predator naked, or with two sponsons and full additional weapon upgrades... for the same points? Or a full unit of Death Company Marines with boltgun/CCW, or power weapon and plasma pistol... for the same points?

That's pants-on-head stupid.

Yeah, or you can have every Rhino in your army carry a Hunter-Killer missile, there's no reason not to, and hundreds of other examples like this. Upgrades being free means every add-something upgrade is basically a must-take, and only replacement upgrades or sidegrades require any thought at all.

Or a full unit of Death Company Marines with boltgun/CCW, or power

Fist

and plasma pistol... for the same points?

Fixed that for you.

Tyel wrote:
I guess we'll see how it shakes out - but I think there's going to be massive imbalance in say Marines being priced with free stuff before the jump - and now other stuff being priced on the assumption you'll take 9 out of 10 possible upgrades whether you wanted to or not.

Kabalites for instance jumping to 120 from 80. Okay, I guess we get a dark lance, splinter cannon, shredder, blaster, blast pistol and (kinda) agonizer which costed 50. But I'm not sure they were actually "worth that" - hence the fact people typically didn't splash the points (and two heavy weapons wasn't allowed until yesterday). Wracks jumping from 45 to 65 because you'll take all the weapons.

But then a Ravager is only 95 so clearly they've finished paying for 8th edition's sins.

At least they didn't ignore most of the upgrades, but that Ravager might be too cheap. I'm not 100% of that since it did get softer, but a QLAS Pred is 120 and will certainly do less damage. Faction balance and all that though.

Making the unit upgrades free and having squad sizes priced out in increments is likely at least partly influenced by streamlining their upcoming army builder app.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Better designers may have been able to accomplish that

Yea. If the datacards had been on point a case could be made, but again - feels like we're playtesting for them. Gonna be a rough 6 to 12 months.

Going to be the exciting wild west in my opinion. For many this is uncharted territory and I imagine there will be a lot of growing pains.

It's going to be completely unplayable until the next points update AT MINIMUM.

Also, a good portion of models can simply be thrown in the garbage. I have Sisters of Battle Models with Stormbolters, Heavy Bolters, Flamers, and Heavy Flamers.

Every single one of those is completely useless. They have 0 value. Taking them to any game ever would be actively detrimental. To field any one of those models, ever, would be an insult to my opponent akin to playing with one hand behind my back.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:Rich from the Studio says: “Unit sizes are now much easier to manage. Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box, so you won’t need to agonise over how to include all of the models you’ve bought. It also helps to quickly understand the strength of a full squad at a glance, and makes list-building far quicker and simpler.

Games Workshop wrote:“Unit sizes are now much easier to manage. Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box, so you won’t need to agonise over how to include all of the models you’ve bought.

Games Workshop wrote:“Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... box...

*loudly clears throat*

Like, really really loudly.

What sorcery is this? So 7 Plague marines cost like 10? but but the box is 7 XD

 Gojiratoho wrote:
Making the unit upgrades free and having squad sizes priced out in increments is likely at least partly influenced by streamlining their upcoming army builder app.

The Most Redundant App in History if the list building is really this simple.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
What's the point of making Enhancements cost points if no other upgrades cost points?

Yeah, that's just weird. 9th had a real problem with WLT and relics often being wildly different in power both in one book and between books, exacerbated by them being free. So charging for them makes sense as it allows you to better reflect how good they actually are. Then they make all equipment free

So, in the interest of breaking up the justified doom and gloom...

It will lead to community/tournament points lists, right? Right now, this is basically unplayable on a competitive level, and if GW won't provide, somebody (i.e. somebody not part of their 'World Championship' programme) is going to set a points standard?

Hope not. That would be much, much worse.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:Rich from the Studio says: “Unit sizes are now much easier to manage. Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box, so you won’t need to agonise over how to include all of the models you’ve bought. It also helps to quickly understand the strength of a full squad at a glance, and makes list-building far quicker and simpler.

Games Workshop wrote:“Unit sizes are now much easier to manage. Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box, so you won’t need to agonise over how to include all of the models you’ve bought.

Games Workshop wrote:“Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... in that unit’s box...

Games Workshop wrote:... box...

*loudly clears throat*

Like, really really loudly.

What sorcery is this? So 7 Plague marines cost like 10? but but the box is 7 XD

They call out Plague Marines specifically in the article... it's because they've got so many awesome characters, and us dum-dums don't accidentally add too many to fit the squad in a Rhino, or something. You see, taking 7 and paying for 10 is necessary because... well... it is, or somehow. Just read the article, Comrade Squealer explained it better than i can, because i'm a dum-dum.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
So let me get this straight... I could take a Baal Predator naked, or with two sponsons and full additional weapon upgrades... for the same points? Or a full unit of Death Company Marines with boltgun/CCW, or power weapon and plasma pistol... for the same points?

That's pants-on-head stupid.

Yeah, or you can have every Rhino in your army carry a Hunter-Killer missile, there's no reason not to, and hundreds of other examples like this. Upgrades being free means every add-something upgrade is basically a must-take, and only replacement upgrades or sidegrades require any thought at all.

Yes. Why not just have every Rhino equipped with a Hunter-Killer then? Nobody will ever select otherwise, and then people wouldn't be scrabbling around their bits boxes looking for one for every tank they own just in case WYSIWYG comes up. If they were just part of the stock equipment then nobody would worry about the model.

God this is *stupid*.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
What's the point of making Enhancements cost points if no other upgrades cost points?

Yeah, that's just weird. 9th had a real problem with WLT and relics often being wildly different in power both in one book and between books, exacerbated by them being free. So charging for them makes sense as it allows you to better reflect how good they actually are. Then they make all equipment free

So, in the interest of breaking up the justified doom and gloom...

It will lead to community/tournament points lists, right? Right now, this is basically unplayable on a competitive level, and if GW won't provide, somebody (i.e. somebody not part of their 'World Championship' programme) is going to set a points standard?

Unironically OPR is gonna have better fluff and balance than 10th lol

Games Workshop wrote:“The points cost of a unit’s weapons and wargear are now incorporated into the cost of that unit – there’s no longer any need to count up all the individual weapon loadouts and do a bunch of arithmetic just to determine the total points cost of one individual unit. This makes mustering an army much simpler, and much quicker. It also frees people to make the units they’ve always wanted to, using all the coolest bits found on the kits without having to worry about spiralling points costs."

How stupid do they think we are?

Firesight Team
1 model .............................................................. 70 pts

Heh. Apparently there is an 'I' in team after all.

So basically we have Warmahordes 40k (please dear Warmahordes players correct me if I am wrong) where everything the unit has is on its card (or cards if there is an attached unit), and all listed wargear is automatically included?

So is everyone that called Powerlevel in the past bad/stupid now quitting the game
Or is it that GW can do nothing wrong and points were never balanced anyway

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:“The points cost of a unit’s weapons and wargear are now incorporated into the cost of that unit – there’s no longer any need to count up all the individual weapon loadouts and do a bunch of arithmetic just to determine the total points cost of one individual unit. This makes mustering an army much simpler, and much quicker. It also frees people to make the units they’ve always wanted to, using all the coolest bits found on the kits without having to worry about spiralling points costs."

How stupid do they think we are?

Apparently so stupid that 2 and 3 digit numbers are hard for us.

Counting and 'a bunch of arithmetic' was just a bridge too far.

 kodos wrote:
So is everyone that called Powerlevel in the past bad/stupid now quitting the game
Or is it that GW can do nothing wrong and points were never balanced anyway

Yes