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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:“The points cost of a unit’s weapons and wargear are now incorporated into the cost of that unit – there’s no longer any need to count up all the individual weapon loadouts and do a bunch of arithmetic just to determine the total points cost of one individual unit. This makes mustering an army much simpler, and much quicker. It also frees people to make the units they’ve always wanted to, using all the coolest bits found on the kits without having to worry about spiralling points costs."

How stupid do they think we are?

The fact that the commentary is from Robin, I don't know how much of it is a "they" when he's not been great at pretty much anything he's touched so far. Maybe that seems harsh, but I know he's made more books/rules people were unhappy with than he's made they liked.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So basically we have Warmahordes 40k (please dear Warmahordes players correct me if I am wrong) where everything the unit has is on its card (or cards if there is an attached unit), and all listed wargear is automatically included?

Well, no. As all the unit and commander attachments (i.e. weapon upgrades) cost points.

Dudeface wrote:
The fact that the commentary is from Robin, I don't know how much of it is a "they" when he's not been great at pretty much anything he's touched so far. Maybe that seems harsh, but I know he's made more books/rules people were unhappy with than he's made they liked.

[he-can't-keep-getting-away-with-this-meme.jpg]

How did anyone there think this was a good idea?

This is going to be annoying for everyone, but incredibly so for players of factions with few units to choose from.

Just had a go at mocking up a World Eaters list to 2k, seems like it's just a case of spamming enhancements to round the list off as there are no incremental small cost units.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How stupid do they think we are?

Well how much money we have spent on their products?

 Gojiratoho wrote:
Making the unit upgrades free and having squad sizes priced out in increments is likely at least partly influenced by streamlining their upcoming army builder app.

if their army builder app cant handle weapons costs, its a gak app.

No weapon costs, no units increments... we dumb dumb

On a very serious note now... I love that GW gave us the points for everything, free of charge so we are sorted for the next 3 years of this edition.

This is great.

 Insularum wrote:
This is going to be annoying for everyone, but incredibly so for players of factions with few units to choose from.

Just had a go at mocking up a World Eaters list to 2k, seems like it's just a case of spamming enhancements to round the list off as there are no incremental small cost units.

You can't 'spam' enhancements, they are limited to one of each, three in total, one per character.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gojiratoho wrote:
Making the unit upgrades free and having squad sizes priced out in increments is likely at least partly influenced by streamlining their upcoming army builder app.

if their army builder app cant handle weapons costs, its a gak app.

I mean, their last one was, so I can only imagine their new one will be as well.

 kodos wrote:
So is everyone that called Powerlevel in the past bad/stupid now quitting the game
Or is it that GW can do nothing wrong and points were never balanced anyway

I'll try the game first but i fully expect it to be a shitshow and i really dislike "naked" squads not being a thing.

I will try to push more people to try 30k (when their armies permit it) or stick to AoS/OPR

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
This is going to be annoying for everyone, but incredibly so for players of factions with few units to choose from.

Just had a go at mocking up a World Eaters list to 2k, seems like it's just a case of spamming enhancements to round the list off as there are no incremental small cost units.

You can't 'spam' enhancements, they are limited to one of each, three in total, one per character.

And you will often find you need to take 3 even if you don't want them

Slipspace wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Legionaries makes some sense since they have access to more upgrades. I haven't looked deeply at Necrons yet so no comment there.

I'm going to charitably call that "a stretch". You know what doesn't make sense? Noise Marines are 3ppm cheaper than Legionaries. Due to the stupidity of free equipment, they also have utterly redundant boltguns since Sonic Blasters are strictly better.

5 Noise marines
4x Sonic ( or 3x and a plasma pistol )
Power Fist
Doom Siren
Icon
OC 1
Causes battleshock

5 Legionaries
1x Bolter
2x Heavy melee weapon
Plasma Pistol
Tome
Reaper
Icon
Reroll 1s or Reroll all wounds vs unit on objective

I'm pretty sure the rerolls is what's closing that gap, because it will produce some significantly different results.

Well... ...no points for that. Lol.

 Insularum wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
This is going to be annoying for everyone, but incredibly so for players of factions with few units to choose from.

Just had a go at mocking up a World Eaters list to 2k, seems like it's just a case of spamming enhancements to round the list off as there are no incremental small cost units.

You can't 'spam' enhancements, they are limited to one of each, three in total, one per character.

And you will often find you need to take 3 even if you don't want them

Ah yes, Chaos Gifts, very thematic. Simplified Narrative-Forging™ incoming!

I'm sure it's still a fun game. But its not a wargame in the sense we're used to. I suppose they could put points in the codexes, but it would be hard to so that without making the codex WEAKER than the index.

 Tyran wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How stupid do they think we are?

Well how much money we have spent on their products?

Their actual products are good. Their miniatures, that is.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

They have an idea - it just doesn't jive with our current sensibilities. To some degree upgrades costing points doesn't matter much and they just make us feel good, but some things might deserve a bump. At the same time it feels like we're still in beta and we're going to find out what things need those bumps.

sorry Daed but i really can't agree with the idea that upgrades costing points doesnt matter. Its the core concept of balance, different weapons that are straight up better are NOT worth the same points.

It works with AoS because AoS has tradeoffs for every options

sword
1" range, 3 attacks, 3+ to hit

spear
2" range, 3 attacks, 4+ to hit

there is no world where a lascannon and a boltgun are worth the same

Which is why I imagine that the lascannon(or equivalent) is baked into the total point cost. I mean, we have stronger weapons in AoS which usually amounts to 1 in 10 carrying it. I imagine GW wants something similar here.

so why make taking jsut a bolter an option then? Its nothing but a noobtrap

That is a problem more related to the fact that the range has a lot of legacy kits that probably need to be yeeted into the nearest volcano. I wouldn't be surprised if going forward kits are going to better reflect how you make the squad. GW could also update the schematics so you only make one specific model out of the kit. So one model becomes the heavy and can have Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, or missile launcher. Besides, the previous setup was a noob minefield. Oh, you made that setup? Well it sucks now and for 7 editions henceforth. I have so many marine, drukhari, Eldar, et al setups that never saw the light of day because they were just always bad from inception.

The thing is, GW suffers a lot of legacy and way too many of the old Space Marine kits were created for a wannabe roleplaying system that no longer exists. I kind of think what GW did today is to yank off a very old bandaid. Sadly they didn't yank it completely off as that would mean sunsetting kits that are just shelf fillers at best.

I am not surprised at all to be honest. This has been on the horizon ever since they streamlined all the points costs into multiples of 5.
For those that still can't see it, this will massively push people into buying new boxes, because now they want to build squads with maxed out gear. It is all going according to plan, Kirby's plan to be exact.
I'll be sitting this one out again and play KT and OPR and continue to build my models in the way I feel it represents the feel of the army.

Have fun and remember, next edition there could be point costs for upgrades again. So only build for what you can stand for in 10 years.

 Eldarsif wrote:


That is a problem more related to the fact that the range has a lot of legacy kits that probably need to be yeeted into the nearest volcano. I wouldn't be surprised if going forward kits are going to better reflect how you make the squad. GW could also update the schematics so you only make one specific model out of the kit. So one model becomes the heavy and can have Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, or missile launcher. Besides, the previous setup was a noob minefield. Oh, you made that setup? Well it sucks now and for 7 editions henceforth. I have so many marine, drukhari, Eldar, et al setups that never saw the light of day because they were just always bad from inception.

The thing is, GW suffers a lot of legacy and way too many of the old Space Marine kits were created for a wannabe roleplaying system that no longer exists. I kind of think what GW did today is to yank off a very old bandaid. Sadly they didn't yank it completely off as that would mean sunsetting kits that are just shelf fillers at best.

Agreed. I think that new kits will be geared towards this new idea, and the old ones will be slowly retired (like all Firstborn for example).

People need to stop wishing that GW will throw away their primary money-makers.

That's the least likely scenario. There are factions that need to legitimately fear getting the chop first.

ERJAK wrote:
Retributor squad: 130pts SEEMS like it should be good for 4 Multimeltas...until you see that Eradicators are NINETY-FIVE.

I'm just pulling out random pieces to look at objectively.

Eradicators get half the shots of Retributors.

4 * .888 * .555 * 3.5 = 6.9

8 * .5 * .388 = 1.6 - convert 1 to 6 then 0.6 * 3.5 = 2.1 + 6 = 8.1
8 * .666 * .388 = 2.1 - convert 1 to 6 then 1.1 * 3.5 = 3.9 + 6 = 9.9 // with a +1 from Heavy or <SS ( less than starting size )

Eradicators are probably a bit low and counting on Miracle dice is difficult to ascertain, however, you can use MD on the wound and use 5s instead, which gives....

8 * .5 = 4; make 1 auto wound with MD; 3 * .388 = 1.164 + 1 = 2.164 * 3.5 = 7.6
8 * .666 = 5.328; make 1 auto wound with MD; 4.328 * .388 = 1.679 + 1 = 2.679 * 3.5 = 9.4

The force multipliers are also greater for Retributors though they do some at some cost.

I don't think you can easily reconcile durability between armies, but 10 or 15 extra to Eradicators couldn't hurt, either.>

 kestral wrote:
I'm sure it's still a fun game. But its not a wargame in the sense we're used to. I suppose they could put points in the codexes, but it would be hard to so that without making the codex WEAKER than the index.

For me tinkering about the wargear, unit sizes, skipping an option here or there to save points for upgrading some units elsewhere, that was part of the fun in Warhammer 40'000. The current design studio (mostly Robin Cruddace I suppose) removed that fun. This muitorum field manual is a big bummer for me.


Dumbed-down, not simple.

It will be interesting to see what it does to the people who make their corn doing rules/points analysis. Is there enough to work with to produce content along that line? "Well, I think you might consider running 3 of this unit instead of 2 in your list, and now I'm going to write a page about it". I'll be (vaguely) interested to see if it delivers on the the "simplified not simple" premise.

Voss wrote:
People need to stop wishing that GW will throw away their primary money-makers.

That's the least likely scenario. There are factions that need to legitimately fear getting the chop first.

Nobody is saying that GW needs to throw away their primary money maker. Prune, yes, like a bonsai tree.

I play Drukhari and I've already had the line chopped so far. I fear nothing.

Tsagualsa wrote:
It will lead to community/tournament points lists, right? Right now, this is basically unplayable on a competitive level, and if GW won't provide, somebody (i.e. somebody not part of their 'World Championship' programme) is going to set a points standard?

I don't think that is true. It could be playable, but you'll NEED those upgrades on your models.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 kestral wrote:
I'm sure it's still a fun game. But its not a wargame in the sense we're used to. I suppose they could put points in the codexes, but it would be hard to so that without making the codex WEAKER than the index.

For me tinkering about the wargear, unit sizes, skipping an option here or there to save points for upgrading some units elsewhere, that was part of the fun in Warhammer 40'000. The current design studio (mostly Robin Cruddace I suppose) removed that fun. This muitorum field manual is a big bummer for me.


Dumbed-down, not simple.

Made simple for the simpletons.

I'm getting whiplash reading through these points.

Just when I think I'm getting a grasp of the baseline, I hit something that seems way out of line.

Whirlwind...125
Predators 130/135.
Vindicator 205!!!!

Necron immortals 140
Necron lychguard 190
Necron Praetorians. 270!!!!


I also... I don't want space marine scouts. I don't particularly like space marine scouts.
But its 70 points for 10 wounds, 4 bolters and a Heavy Bolter or Missile launcher that can teleport around the battlefield to grab objectives.

 GiToRaZor wrote:
I am not surprised at all to be honest. This has been on the horizon ever since they streamlined all the points costs into multiples of 5.
For those that still can't see it, this will massively push people into buying new boxes, because now they want to build squads with maxed out gear. It is all going according to plan, Kirby's plan to be exact.
I'll be sitting this one out again and play KT and OPR and continue to build my models in the way I feel it represents the feel of the army.

Have fun and remember, next edition there could be point costs for upgrades again. So only build for what you can stand for in 10 years.

Jokes on them. My pile of shame hasn't moved much.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
I'm getting whiplash reading through these points.

Just when I think I'm getting a grasp of the baseline, I hit something that seems way out of line.

Whirlwind...125
Predators 130/135.
Vindicator 205!!!!

Necron immortals 140
Necron lychguard 190
Necron Praetorians. 270!!!!

Desolators need datasheet nerfs asap. Vindicator makes sense to me - the cannon got a huge glow up. No comment on crons. Those Predator costs give me some small comfort as they're more expensive than the CSM ones who do not have an HKM.

So pretty crazy how fast i went from being hyped about a new edition to being completely neutral towards it, i'm not so dissapointed that i have real-life stuff to do this weekend instead of trying it out finally....

Whirlwind...125
Predators 130/135.
Vindicator 205!!!!

Did you miss that the Vindi has higher toughness, a better save, and can fire its gun while in melee, AT the victims it is in melee with?