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 Ravajaxe wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I'm not upset about everything getting free wargear.
But the fixed unit sizes are annoying.

I have 6 Dire Avengers. I now have to either pay the cost for 10, or shelf the 6th model.
That's just one of MANY examples of model sizes I and my son own that are more than the box size, but less than the size of 2 boxes.

It would have been super easy for GW to price extra models separately.
5 Dire Avengers- 70pts
+1-5 additional Dire Avengers- +13pts per model

How hard was that?

-

I hear you and get what you are saying.

I'm an oldie in the game too, but I actually find the fixed unit sizes a relief. They are flexible enough that one can play most common sizes anyway, and it makes it more streamlined to calculate in your head if one unit can mathematically beat another if they get the charge.

For once, the game has become less clunky and in this regard plays more like a 2000s game rather than a 90s game.

I can't get how the fixed unit sizes could be "a relief". You cant' fine-tune a list anymore regarding points or unit efficiency. You cant' adjust a unit size to fill the capacity of a transport anymore. You can't divide your model collection into however fits what you like. You can't buy single or odd numbers of second-hand miniatures for a squad, because you can't even field them !

How is that not clunky ?

The preamble to the Field Manual mentions you can field understrength units, but you have to pay for max strength. I.e. you can field seven if you want to, but you have to pay for ten.

Each entry lists the increments to
a unit’s size that incur different points costs. This may change
with the addition of each individual model (e.g. 1 model, 2
models, 3 models, etc.) or it may be presented with a lower
and upper limit to a unit’s Starting Strength (e.g. one cost for
5 models, another cost for 10 models). In the latter case, your
units can contain a number of models in between these limits,
but you must still pay the maximum points cost for a unit
that starts the game with more than its minimum number of
models.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The 40k subreddit is garbage. They defended the new iteration of RP for Necrons.

There's two subreddits - are you referring to competitive. Also the new Necron RP seems really good...?

Take your pick. Last I visited was the competitive one but they're all garbage anyway.

Also RP sucks. It allows easy unit Wipeouts. You can talk about how with a Reanimator + Orb you get 10 models back over two Command Phases, but guess what? Warriors and Immortals are gonna die before that.

You wouldn't understand with your blind loyalty to GW of course, so what's new?

God, you're pathetic.

Tsagualsa wrote:
Overall, i'm mostly annoyed because the doomsayers seem to have been correct about the gist of what was coming

That little scrap led to an epiphany.

Anyone else ever wonder if it seems like GW wrote the rules in the 4 hours before they reveal it because they did write it in the 4 hours before they revealed it, using the doomsaying as their guide because "well, if it's what people are talking about, it must be what they want"?

What if it's all being done by AI that doesn't understand sarcasm or negative feelings in general and is just scraping the internet for chatter to make the bestest system that will appeal to the most people? Or maybe it's a malicious actor in GW who understands but does this because they think this way we're getting the rules we deserve?

I don't care if this is true or false, I'm starting a podcast about it now. Probably the only way I'll get a copy of the next Killteam set.

The simple solution to this all is just change to playing Imperial Knights.

It's all 1's and 2's for squad size and all the best upgrades are free.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The 40k subreddit is garbage. They defended the new iteration of RP for Necrons.

There's two subreddits - are you referring to competitive. Also the new Necron RP seems really good...?

Take your pick. Last I visited was the competitive one but they're all garbage anyway.

Also RP sucks. It allows easy unit Wipeouts. You can talk about how with a Reanimator + Orb you get 10 models back over two Command Phases, but guess what? Warriors and Immortals are gonna die before that.

You wouldn't understand with your blind loyalty to GW of course, so what's new?

God, you're pathetic.

I'm not the one blindly defending EVERYTHING GW does. You defended the absurd lethality from 9th after all.

OH and not to mention your blind defense that nothing is based on the box contents when we got confirmation that it is LMAO

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They defended the new iteration of RP for Necrons.

That's because it is good, especially with all the synergies.

20 Warriors, in range of an Objective Marker, with a Lord/Res orb with the Hypermaterial Ablator and a Canpotek Reanimator in range:

-1 to be shot from Ablator
Benefit of Cover so +1 to saves from Ablator (assuming the firing squad is further than 12" away)
5-9 Warriors returned via Stratagem after an enemy unit shoots between the Warriors and Reanimators abilities (possibly 6-10 if the Character section of the strat stacks with the Warriors RP ability)
And if you wanna get spicy, throw a Technomancer in there for 5+ FNP.

Then RP on your Command Phase and the opponent's Command Phase, for 5-9 Warriors each time.

RP is good in 10th.

Hmmm, with fixed squads and free everything, this really is GW forcing PL on us except they're calling it "points" and pretending that we won't notice.

"5 Intercessors is 5 PL, 10 Intercessors is 10 PL. I mean, 5 Intercessors is 90 pts, 10 Intercessors is 180 pts. Clearly different!"

 Gojiratoho wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They defended the new iteration of RP for Necrons.

That's because it is good, especially with all the synergies.

20 Warriors, in range of an Objective Marker, with a Lord/Res orb with the Hypermaterial Ablator and a Canpotek Reanimator in range:

-1 to be shot from Ablator
Benefit of Cover so +1 to saves from Ablator (assuming the firing squad is further than 12" away)
5-9 Warriors returned after an enemy unit shoots between the Warriors and Reanimators abilities (possibly 6-10 if the Character section of the strat stacks with the Warriors RP ability)
And if you wanna get spicy, throw a Technomancer in there for 5+ FNP.

Then RP on your Command Phase and the opponent's Command Phase, for 5-9 Warriors each time.

RP is good in 10th.

That's not RP being good, that's character stacking being good LMAO.

tneva82 wrote:
Biggest dissapointment for me today was no scenario pack. The one in core rules rather boring. Was hoping to try the new 9e/tempest hybrid in first game.

Use this video - it has everything you'll need:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDGCI4DAMMM&ab_channel=ArtofWar40k


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
I'm not the one blindly defending EVERYTHING GW does. You defended the absurd lethality from 9th after all.

Then you selectively read my posts so you can fuel your obnoxious hate boner. Go touch grass.

No One Important wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Overall, i'm mostly annoyed because the doomsayers seem to have been correct about the gist of what was coming

That little scrap led to an epiphany.

Snip -
I don't care if this is true or false, I'm starting a podcast about it now. Probably the only way I'll get a copy of the next Killteam set.

Heh, you might be on to something there. Have an exalt !

 Gojiratoho wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They defended the new iteration of RP for Necrons.

That's because it is good, especially with all the synergies.

20 Warriors, in range of an Objective Marker, with a Lord/Res orb with the Hypermaterial Ablator and a Canpotek Reanimator in range:

-1 to be shot from Ablator
Benefit of Cover so +1 to saves from Ablator (assuming the firing squad is further than 12" away)
5-9 Warriors returned via Stratagem after an enemy unit shoots between the Warriors and Reanimators abilities (possibly 6-10 if the Character section of the strat stacks with the Warriors RP ability)
And if you wanna get spicy, throw a Technomancer in there for 5+ FNP.

Then RP on your Command Phase and the opponent's Command Phase, for 5-9 Warriors each time.

RP is good in 10th.

HEY GUYS A WHITE KNIGHT! THEY THINK SOMETHING GW DID IS GOOD!

Oh they just sat and thought about it and came to their own conclusion and supported it with data? Wow that seems weird.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


HEY GUYS A WHITE KNIGHT! THEY THINK SOMETHING GW DID IS GOOD!

Oh they just sat and thought about it and came to their own conclusion? Wow that seems weird.

now its my turn to tell you to calm down i guess :p

Tsagualsa wrote:
The preamble to the Field Manual mentions you can field understrength units, but you have to pay for max strength. I.e. you can field seven if you want to, but you have to pay for ten.

Each entry lists the increments to
a unit’s size that incur different points costs. This may change
with the addition of each individual model (e.g. 1 model, 2
models, 3 models, etc.) or it may be presented with a lower
and upper limit to a unit’s Starting Strength (e.g. one cost for
5 models, another cost for 10 models). In the latter case, your
units can contain a number of models in between these limits,
but you must still pay the maximum points cost for a unit
that starts the game with more than its minimum number of
models.

Well that solves some things. I'm glad I missed it. Well, not glad I missed it, but glad that it's there. I can accept this. Thanks for pointing it out.

Removed for rule 1.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
now its my turn to tell you to calm down i guess :p

Yea, well, at this point I'm literally being bullied and he can feth off.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gojiratoho wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They defended the new iteration of RP for Necrons.

That's because it is good, especially with all the synergies.

20 Warriors, in range of an Objective Marker, with a Lord/Res orb with the Hypermaterial Ablator and a Canpotek Reanimator in range:

-1 to be shot from Ablator
Benefit of Cover so +1 to saves from Ablator (assuming the firing squad is further than 12" away)
5-9 Warriors returned via Stratagem after an enemy unit shoots between the Warriors and Reanimators abilities (possibly 6-10 if the Character section of the strat stacks with the Warriors RP ability)
And if you wanna get spicy, throw a Technomancer in there for 5+ FNP.

Then RP on your Command Phase and the opponent's Command Phase, for 5-9 Warriors each time.

RP is good in 10th.

HEY GUYS A WHITE KNIGHT! THEY THINK SOMETHING GW DID IS GOOD!

Oh they just sat and thought about it and came to their own conclusion and supported it with data? Wow that seems weird.

And I already pointed out that's not RP being good. You throw that many characters and buffs into a squad just to make the army passive work? Yeah, that's not functional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
now its my turn to tell you to calm down i guess :p

Yea, well, at this point I'm literally being bullied and he can feth off.

Your use of "literally" and "bullying" are wrong.

After reading the Goonhammer Army Builder App review, it's all become clear why the new stats/cards/units are the way they are.

GW couldn't build an in-depth App, with thousands of options, in time for 10th. So they just made everything "simple" so the App will work and force you to sign up for Warhammer+

I *knew* there had to be an angle, lol

Zachectomy wrote:
Has anyone priced out the two sides of the leviathan box yet? The consensus was that the tyranid side was underpointed. I'd like to know if that's actually true or they just overcosted the bugs.

Tyranids are 780 (not including Rippers) and Marines are 960.

Admittedly the SK is blatantly over-costed.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

That's not RP being good, that's character stacking being good LMAO.

Sorry, didn't realize you don't know how to play this game.

So these are called "synergies". A "synergy" is when two things mutually benefit one another by being combined. In this case, the Lord benefits and enhances the RP ability of the Warriors through the use of his wargear. So while that big ol' blob of 20 models is hard to hide from line of sight from your opponent, and all on it's own will likely get whittled down or eliminated before you can use RP, you can use the tools provided by Games Workshop to make a combo that greatly enhances their durability and survivability, aka, a "synergy".

Hope that helps

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Well they're going to, whether you like it or not. Don't be in denial about it, did you even read the Necron index?

keep seething, i'll stay in the real world and enjoy my games in the meantime

also, how the feth are you complaining about a *death army* requiring lots of heroes to lead the chaff?

 Tyran wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
Has anyone priced out the two sides of the leviathan box yet? The consensus was that the tyranid side was underpointed. I'd like to know if that's actually true or they just overcosted the bugs.

Tyranids are 780 (not including Rippers) and Marines are 960.

Admittedly the SK is blatantly over-costed.

Not sure about that. The screamer killer is a lot more reasonable than I thought it would be, given how good it is.

I thought it was going to be priced too close to the carnifex, making them pointless.

 Gojiratoho wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

That's not RP being good, that's character stacking being good LMAO.

Sorry, didn't realize you don't know how to play this game.

So these are called "synergies". A "synergy" is when two things mutually benefit one another by being combined. In this case, the Lord benefits and enhances the RP ability of the Warriors through the use of his wargear. So while that big ol' blob of 20 models is hard to hide from line of sight from your opponent, and all on it's own will likely get whittled down or eliminated before you can use RP, you can use the tools provided by Games Workshop to make a combo that greatly enhances their durability and survivability, aka, a "synergy".

Hope that helps

Does RP work by itself as an army rule, yes or no? It's not synergy if something doesn't work to begin with, it's putting effort to make something work that doesn't.

Look at Skitarii Rangers. They're almost 12 points per model and you can stack several buffs on them. Are you going to say they're a good unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Well they're going to, whether you like it or not. Don't be in denial about it, did you even read the Necron index?

keep seething, i'll stay in the real world and enjoy my games in the meantime

also, how the feth are you complaining about a *death army* requiring lots of heroes to lead the chaff?

That's just not having higher standards for GW like you should.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
And I already pointed out that's not RP being good. You throw that many characters and buffs into a squad just to make the army passive work? Yeah, that's not functional.

You moved the goalposts so far up your own ass they're tickling your throat. That's how the friggin' game works my dude.

I never moved a goalpost. RP isn't functional as an army rule.

What about it isn't functional?
You can say it's too weak or conditional, sure, but it literally functions.

If its too weak or conditional, it's not functioning. Would you say you had transportation to a job in another city if your car went 10MPH?

Yes. Set off earlier.

I quite like the new RP. Will actually function for things other than single wound models now.

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
And I already pointed out that's not RP being good. You throw that many characters and buffs into a squad just to make the army passive work? Yeah, that's not functional.

You moved the goalposts so far up your own ass they're tickling your throat. That's how the friggin' game works my dude.

I never moved a goalpost. RP isn't functional as an army rule.

What about it isn't functional?
You can say it's too weak or conditional, sure, but it literally functions.

If its too weak or conditional, it's not functioning. Would you say you had transportation to a job in another city if your car went 10MPH?

Yes. Set off earlier.

Yeah try that in an interview and see how that goes. I'd love to hear the results.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
And I already pointed out that's not RP being good. You throw that many characters and buffs into a squad just to make the army passive work? Yeah, that's not functional.

You moved the goalposts so far up your own ass they're tickling your throat. That's how the friggin' game works my dude.

I never moved a goalpost. RP isn't functional as an army rule.

What about it isn't functional?
You can say it's too weak or conditional, sure, but it literally functions.

If its too weak or conditional, it's not functioning. Would you say you had transportation to a job in another city if your car went 10MPH?

Well we'll see when tournaments come up. I'm expecting necrons to do pretty well. And necron players are excited.

Btw do you have necron army?

Dudeface wrote:

Better yet, get anew job. You're so keen to try and gak on things and other people all the time, how on earth you don't just get bored of being a negative prick is lost on me. You even admitted you a net negative hobby experience, you're breeding your own festering attitude so you can "attack" things. It's strong wording and genuinely concerning.

Or I can point out why the game is actually not great and that you shouldn't give GW another cent until they put effort into it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
And I already pointed out that's not RP being good. You throw that many characters and buffs into a squad just to make the army passive work? Yeah, that's not functional.

You moved the goalposts so far up your own ass they're tickling your throat. That's how the friggin' game works my dude.

I never moved a goalpost. RP isn't functional as an army rule.

What about it isn't functional?
You can say it's too weak or conditional, sure, but it literally functions.

If its too weak or conditional, it's not functioning. Would you say you had transportation to a job in another city if your car went 10MPH?

Well we'll see when tournaments come up. I'm expecting necrons to do pretty well. And necron players are excited.

Btw do you have necron army?

No gak I have a Necron army

Tsagualsa wrote:

Boosykes wrote:
Life has gotten crazy over the last few days and I haven't been able to keep up with the revels but I know point drop today. How close was I? Are death guard bottom of the barrel, sitting next to adeptus mechanicus like they looked in the preview and are eldar, and space marines hanging at the top? Like they appeared to be?

The long and short of it is: Fixed squad sizes for most units, or increments of *Multiples of Boxes*, and all Upgrades/Equipment are free. Draw your own conclusions.

Thanks for the update.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So pretty crazy how fast i went from being hyped about a new edition to being completely neutral towards it, i'm not so dissapointed that i have real-life stuff to do this weekend instead of trying it out finally...

I really like the core rules. I think that, with a few exceptions (Desperate Breakout) they make a fantastic base for the new game.

The Datasheets are a bit all over the place, but there are some armies that seem to have their gak together (Necrons look like a wonderfully synergistic army!), and there are some that make my blood boil (the Carnifex entry).

And then they go and do... this!

Agreed, surprisingly. I am stunned tbh. GW set up what seems to be a solid set of core rules, and then they went and fethed it all up with some boneheaded choices with arbitrary profile consolidations, unit modifications, and stat choices.

As for points, the writing has been on the wall for a while about the power-level-ification of points, saw it coming, not bothered by it in concept if its done right - it was not done right here. The idea that a range of weapon and wargear options can all be roughly equivalent alternatives to one another, IE functional equivalents where a melta, a flamer, grenade launcher, and a plasma gun, etc. all carry equivalent level of utility to the unit and the player and thus are a wash in terms of points. 100% on board with that. The problem is that selecting those upgrades isn't really mandatory, and its obvious that they are superior to the baseline weapon that model is otherwise equipped with (i.e. bolter, lasgun, etc.). A unit of dudes with 10 bolters is different from a unit of dudes with 9 bolters and a flamer is different from a unit of dudes with 2 flamers and 2 missile launchers, etc. It would not have been too difficult for GW to simplify the points system down to:

"Unit of 5 models = X points
Unit of 10 models = 2X points
-Add up to 2 special weapons = +Y points
-Add up to 4 special weapons = +2Y points
-Add up to 2 heavy weapons = +Z points
-Add up to 4 heavy weapons = +2Z points"

Kind of thing. Its simple, and it works.I'm sure some will complain "but if I only take 1 special weapon I'm being overcharged blahblahblah". Whatever, that degree of granularity is a meme and a myth, more often than not over the course of a full game you are not seeing a meaningful difference in performance from having 2 plasma guns vs just 1. If the end result is players are incentivized to build their units to pre-defined "formats" in terms of the number of weapons they field (i.e. a given unit will almost always be fielded with either no special weapons, 2 special weapons, 2 heavy weapons, etc.), thats fine too, no reason to jump through hoops for those who want to field 1 or 3 special weapons because they came up with bespoke fluff about how the 1st Bumblegak Guards regiment worships triangles and thus fields their special weapons exclusively in groups of 3 so that they can feel closer to the great triangle in the skies pointy angle.

Likewise the flexible unit sizes thing... I dunno, never much saw the point in doing it except because you didn't have points needed to fill out a squad, but theres other ways to address that issue. To an extent theres a degree of diminishing returns when it comes to adding models to a unit, so giving that flexibility really only allows another avenue for min-maxing and optimization. I'd honestly rather just have fixed unit sizes with kicker costs for certain numbers/types of upgrades. With the exception of grognards who were around when everything was sold in individual blisters, units are sold in fixed increments, so its not like you can claim that GW is forcing you to buy extra stuff in order to field your stuff (plague marines notwithstanding). If you only have 6 dire avengers or whatever, and your options are to field them as a unit of 5 or a unit of 10 then thats on you - you bought 2 boxes of 5 avengers, if you converted the other 4 into something else thats not really GWs problem, etc.

Also, personally, to address the survivability v lethality issue with regards to vehicles, I would have just made vehicles reduce D1 to D0 and D2 to D1. That keeps your small arms from getting away from you without requiring you to inflate toughnessess and strengths to try to balance everything out.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So pretty crazy how fast i went from being hyped about a new edition to being completely neutral towards it, i'm not so dissapointed that i have real-life stuff to do this weekend instead of trying it out finally...

I really like the core rules. I think that, with a few exceptions (Desperate Breakout) they make a fantastic base for the new game.

The Datasheets are a bit all over the place, but there are some armies that seem to have their gak together (Necrons look like a wonderfully synergistic army!), and there are some that make my blood boil (the Carnifex entry).

And then they go and do... this!

Agreed, surprisingly. I am stunned tbh.

This is close to what 8th was originally going to be, before AoS 1.0 bombed. The frog boils slowly.