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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm fine with 10th edition, there's like 95 things which are great

I challenge you to name them.

He can only name 50, or 100, as anything in between isn't allowed.

There are plenty of good things about the edition and even switching to powerlevel would have been...really annoying but not totally gamebreaking.

EXCEPT these goddam morons, presented with a points system for TODDLERS, managed to create the WORST factional balance 40k has seen outside 7th edition.

8th edition indexes had normal points and was FAR, FAR better balanced than this gak.

Eldar are busted out the arse (especially annoying because their faction ability is just the Sisters of Battle faction ability +100) Marines are EVEN STRONGER.

A couple of factions have hyper efficient spam builds that should do okay (nids, necrons, a few others)

and then some factions are in the absolute dumpster. Admech are probably the worse full army, relative to the field, in the history of 40k. DG are basically unplayable. Sisters of Battle can't create an 2000pt list that isn't completely dumpstered by a SINGLE wraithknight.

 Gert wrote:

The points came out yesterday, it's entirely reasonable for people to have played 10th by now.

I'm playing a game tonight.

I'm bringing 30 JP Death Company, 30 powerfists and 30 inferno pistols
20 stormshield/plasma pistol jp vanguards
5 Sanguinary guards
Dante & Astorath

I gotta proxy the hell out of it, but at least everyone in each unit has the same loadout.

ERJAK wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm fine with 10th edition, there's like 95 things which are great

I challenge you to name them.

He can only name 50, or 100, as anything in between isn't allowed.

There are plenty of good things about the edition and even switching to powerlevel would have been...really annoying but not totally gamebreaking.
EXCEPT these goddam morons, presented with a points system for TODDLERS, managed to create the WORST factional balance 40k has seen outside 7th edition.

it is simply just the inconsistency that is a problem, and this being just the indices means some armies will use those rules till 11th

points for units only works fine as long as upgrades costs points and sidegrades are free
weapons being merged into 1 profile to make it easier in game and take out modelling problems is fine as long as it is for everyone
cutting down units or merge them is fine, as long as everyone has a similar amount of units to chose from

for now the big question is, will the fix for the poor armies happen before codex creep gets in, or not

I think everyone should rage quit, and sell their leviathans cheap on ebay.
This is the way.

I'm bringing 30 JP Death Company, 30 powerfists and 30 inferno pistols

Yeah they looked too cheap to everyone else too.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm fine with 10th edition, there's like 95 things which are great

I challenge you to name them.

He can only name 50, or 100, as anything in between isn't allowed.

utterly savage...
Well played

 triplegrim wrote:

 Gert wrote:

The points came out yesterday, it's entirely reasonable for people to have played 10th by now.

I'm playing a game tonight.

I'm bringing 30 JP Death Company, 30 powerfists and 30 inferno pistols
20 stormshield/plasma pistol jp vanguards
5 Sanguinary guards
Dante & Astorath

I gotta proxy the hell out of it, but at least everyone in each unit has the same loadout.

I needed that, exalted af

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm fine with 10th edition, there's like 95 things which are great

I challenge you to name them.

He can only name 50, or 100, as anything in between isn't allowed.

As long as he thinks of all 100, he can choose to just name 95 of them.

It is possible to enjoy a thing that is objectively bad by the metrics used to evaluate a thing.

By all film analysis metrics, The Room is utter garbage. Character motivations make no sense, scenes which do nothing to advance the plot are repeated all over the place, the dialogue is awful, the performances are almost entirely terrible etc.

Yet it is still great fun to watch if you enjoy bad movies and like to riff on them with friends. That doesn't change the fact that The Room is a terrible movie.

GW makes awful games. Their rules are unwieldly and frequently do not even work as they are written, balance is frequently as accurate as a shotgun blast at a target half a kilometre away by a drunk child with astigmatism. That doesn't mean you cannot enjoy them, but it also doesn't mean that you won't have more fun with a better game.

Like, would anyone enjoy the game less if there were actual wargear choices with upsides and downsides? Where, from a game theory perspective, you would not be an idiot for not replacing your Commissars bolt pistol with a plasma pistol as there was an actual meaningful choice in there between the two weapons?

To use an example from my own army, the Tau. It costs the same amount of points for 3 crisis suits each with 1 Burst Cannon as it does for 3 Crisis suits who each have 3 Burst Cannons, +2 Wounds, and a 4+ invulnerable save. That is literally triple the firepower and a huge boost to their toughness (+50% wounds on each suit, plus the invulnerable). Any system which considers those two units equivalent in value is fundamentally broken at the very core of the basis of that assessment.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm fine with 10th edition, there's like 95 things which are great

I challenge you to name them.

He can only name 50, or 100, as anything in between isn't allowed.

Unless Custodes

Well, akshually, Harlequins have options for 5, 6, 11 & 12 model troupes, Windriders can be 3,6 or 9.

Still a good joke though.

 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm fine with 10th edition, there's like 95 things which are great

I challenge you to name them.

He can only name 50, or 100, as anything in between isn't allowed.

Unless Custodes

Well, akshually, Harlequins have options for 5, 6, 11 & 12 model troupes, Windriders can be 3,6 or 9.

Still a good joke though.

Totally forgot about Harlies (probably because they are not an army anymore)

There is a big difference between saying "If you think the new edition is dreadful stop playing current 40k and play other games" and saying ""40k is trash, GW is trash, if you like 40k you're a shill, you should play X instead".

"Things will never improve if you let GW get away with treating you like an idiot" is sound advice and I already follow it, I have found every edition from 8th dreadful and I haven't played them or bought the bland codex that have become the norm. Oh, and for those who think they don't treat us like idiots let's compare the units that were cut out of 40k because it was very hard to balance them and the "very" hard work they have made with the datasheets and the points. These unit were clearly not cut to kneecap the department that has been making the 40k studio look bad for years, there is no space for office politics in GW.

And I will be happy when I get my copy of Leviathan next week, I only want the miniatures, the only thing still worth something in 40k for me apart from some scraps of lore, and expected nothing from the rules. I doubt I'm the only one with that attitude.

A problem I see with the current approach to points is: How much can you actually trust GW to keep the current loadouts legal?

We see it right now with Vanguard Veterans where a pair of lightning claws (iirc) is not a possible loadout anymore. Sucks to be you if you have your models like this, even though there are enough bits in the box to do it.

Who here has enough faith in GW to go out and buy, build and paint 30 Death Company Marines now with Jump packs, Power fists and Inferno pistols?

If you want to stick to WYSIWYG, I see it as a deeply problematic development. Even if this stays legal for the whole edition, it might already change again in ~3 years and then you are stuck with a lot of useless plastic.

a_typical_hero wrote:
A problem I see with the current approach to points is: How much can you actually trust GW to keep the current loadouts legal?

Votann!

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-unhinged-an-adeptus-mechanicus-rant/

I will feel great injustice if this doesn't make rounds. And I can confirm that AdMech have been done dirty.

a_typical_hero wrote:
A problem I see with the current approach to points is: How much can you actually trust GW to keep the current loadouts legal?

You're kidding, right?

For years GW have shown that they'll happily delete entire units.

Hell, as they've shown with Corsairs and R&H, they're happy to just delete entire armies on a whim.

 vipoid wrote:
Hell, as they've shown with Corsairs and R&H, they're happy to just delete entire armies on a whim.

Squatting is the phrase for a reason...

 Trickstick wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Hell, as they've shown with Corsairs and R&H, they're happy to just delete entire armies on a whim.

Squatting is the phrase for a reason...

Squats were before my time.

On the other hand, I played Corsairs.

Corsairs were a Forgeworld thing though. They never had a proper Codex.

 vipoid wrote:
On the other hand, I played Corsairs.

They were an absolute menace in Battlefleet Gothic.

On that point, Battlefleet Gothic. An entire game they just scrapped.

 vipoid wrote:
You're kidding, right?

For years GW have shown that they'll happily delete entire units.

Hell, as they've shown with Corsairs and R&H, they're happy to just delete entire armies on a whim.

Something something Forgeworld something something.
I get it, for those affected it might not make a difference. But "something from FW got discontinued" and "a current kit that GW is still producing with all the bits coming in the box and the loadout was legal for the past ~20 years" is a difference.

Having never played a game of pre-8th, I can't speak for their efficacy, but the older FW stuff always struck me as an expansion of the game rather than another game in of itself. Elysians seem particularly well-thought-out from their designer's commentary in Taros. I'd like for things to go back to that, and maybe they will, but the creative staff behind stuff like Corsairs and Krieg are either shifted or long gone.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
You're kidding, right?

For years GW have shown that they'll happily delete entire units.

Hell, as they've shown with Corsairs and R&H, they're happy to just delete entire armies on a whim.

Something something Forgeworld something something.
I get it, for those affected it might not make a difference. But "something from FW got discontinued" and "a current kit that GW is still producing with all the bits coming in the box and the loadout was legal for the past ~20 years" is a difference.

Something something you forgot that R&H were a thing in a campagin from mainline gw and that there virtually is no difference between gw and fw because it is ALL gw.

And this mindset of yours is preciscly why gw gets away with the things gw does.

Forgeworld is owned by GW, but not admitting that there is a difference between how units from FW have been handled not just by GW itself, but by the community as well, is disingenuous.

It sucks for you to have bought into an army that was discontinued right the edition after, I get it. But blaming me for anything is barking at the wrong tree.

I stopped buying once and playing even twice, when GW did something I didn't like. Try to let your anger out somewhere else or shut it.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Forgeworld is owned by GW, but not admitting that there is a difference between how units from FW have been handled not just by GW itself, but by the community as well, is disingenuous.

It sucks for you to have bought into an army that was discontinued right the edition after, I get it. But blaming me for anything is barking at the wrong tree.

I stopped buying once and playing even twice, when GW did something I didn't like. Try to let your anger out somewhere else or shut it.

Read rule 1 .

You excuse the companies behaviour with an artificial differentiation.

Ironicaly differentiating fw from gw since 8th is not accurate even in a sub-divisional unit-rules-level especially since we know that the gw rules division has taken over 40k rules for FW models since 8th aswell.
So again Same company Same Division even, but sure go ahead , but don't expect to not get your behaviour called out on.

This thread needs to calm down. Okay its a new edition, it creates drama, excitement and endless gnashing of teeth whenever a new iteration comes out. However, everyone can and will discuss it within the rules of this site. Be polite, dont spam and stay on topic. If you cannot manage that then do not post or find your ability to post here removed.

Played a 1k game today, my Eldar cs Grey Knights.

Eldar won quite comfortably in end, but a lot of that was due to opponent only skimming rules and not playing to his strengths.

Couple of my own thoughts..

Don’t care about the points issues too much, I play casually and have been doing Crusade a lot anyway. There are some exceptions of course
The game was fun, a lot of nuances. Definitely different.
It’s not simpler, at all. That was a BS GW tagline.
Fire Prism needs a points increase
Fate dice should not be eligible for devastating wound weapons
Grey Knight 2+ saves are quite a big deal in reduced AP environment.
You run out of CPs fast!!

Overall, I had fun first time round. Will see if it continues

 bullyboy wrote:
Fate dice should not be eligible for devastating wound weapons

I was thinking that they should not count as a natural 6 if done through a farseer. So the ones you roll at the start could do, but it stops them getting quite so many.

 Trickstick wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Fate dice should not be eligible for devastating wound weapons

I was thinking that they should not count as a natural 6 if done through a farseer. So the ones you roll at the start could do, but it stops them getting quite so many.

It's technically already supported by the existing rules. Critical hits or wounds require an unmodified roll, so all they need to do is add a line to clarify that whenever a fate dice is used it's considered a modified roll. Those results of six can then still be used to score an atuomatic hit or wound without triggering a disproportionate number of knock-on effects.

 xttz wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Fate dice should not be eligible for devastating wound weapons

I was thinking that they should not count as a natural 6 if done through a farseer. So the ones you roll at the start could do, but it stops them getting quite so many.

It's technically already supported by the existing rules. Critical hits or wounds require an unmodified roll, so all they need to do is add a line to clarify that whenever a fate dice is used it's considered a modified roll. Those results of six can then still be used to score an atuomatic hit or wound without triggering a disproportionate number of knock-on effects.

Unfortunately for this idea, it isn't supported at all. The Rules :More Rules document has entries for 'treated as' dice rolls and states that rules take affect as if that value had been rolled. (it also has entries for 'counts as' and 'considered as,' which point to 'treated as')

Strands of fate uses 'counts as,' and reinforces that it works in its own text, so clearly they considered this and deliberately decided to do it. Its not an unintentional oops that slipped through (unlike all the close combat weapons that units can lose access to)