10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels

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**ERJAK**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I think the core problem (if its a problem) is that 40k is a game where you only make 5 moves. Its why all this fiddly stuff doesn't really work.

"I do X so my opponent counters X so I do Y which he counters again so I do Z etc" makes sense on paper - but in practice it doesn't, because now its now turn 4 and you've just sat moving around in your deployment zone. Either you can stick stuff in their flank on say turns 2 or 3 - or you can't. Its not skill if you can.

In the same way, given units only get to shoot a few times, if you can suppress/pin/shock them so they can't do anything for a turn, that's often functionally very close to them just being killed. Your opponent has another "move" to deal with them.

I don't think alternate activations is some massive cure all, but if you want 40k to have all these interactions then something like that - or perhaps better still whatever you'd all Infinity's system - is probably necessary. But now you are looking at a completely different game.

Again: 30k, average game length: 5-6 turns. Pinning works just fine. And if you have a problem with Pinning, then you'll probably have a problem with Battleshock. Especially when dealing with armies/units that can take advantage of it. There's a reason why I picked out Raptors and Warp Talons as my "high points" in the CSM Index.

Does it still reduce your unit to snapshots and make it so they can't move? Because in 40k proper, that's just killing the unit with extra steps.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

His Master's Voice wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Also, people responding with arguments against "magic" flanking are ignoring the impact of the second of the Fs, Fix.

If you expand the design space to incorporate suppression as a mechanic which is separated from kills, then entirely new metrics for weapon usefulness open up. You can give certain weapons a rule called Suppression (X), where successful hits, not wounds or casualties, inflict a leadership test with a negative modifier equal to the number of hits scored by that weapon, up to a maximum of X. Multiple suppression weapons in a unit pool their hits, but only the highest modifier on the weapons is applied. If failed, the targeted unit is pinned, which shuts down movement until they can recover, either by leader effects (commissar shooting one, an officer character giving them a specific order, etc.) or by passing a leadership test at the end of their next movement phase. While pinned, a unit may not move except to fall back and it reduces its BS to a flat 6+. Infantry and Cavalry models may be Pinned. Vehicles may not, monstrous creatures are possible but reduce the penalty maybe.

We've now opened up an entirely new space for ranged weapons to occupy which doesn't rely on lethality. So now players get to make more meaningful choices on the weapons in their army, and the resulting battlefield role of their units, beyond just "does gun A kill better than gun B?"

I'm guessing you're a fan of Mortal Wounds?

Again, he's just describing killing the unit with extra steps. You could change that whole screed to 'inflict mortal wounds equal to the total wound of the unit' and it wouldn't change anything.

A unit that can't move or shoot is dead. If suppression is easier than killing the unit, it becomes the defacto way to play. Building the mechanic like this is how you end up with the 'fearless' arms race that existed all of 5th-7th.

Let me clarify that I'm not against a morale based mechanic that's stronger than current battleshock, I'm against pinning as it's been implemented in 40k and Horus Heresy. You can give units penalties without fully removing them from the game.

**SgtBANZAI**

Tsagualsa wrote:

That was a major problem in Rogue Trader and Second Edition: a lot of things like many aspects of psychology, wacky grenades, setting people on fire, fear/terror and so on existed in theory, but did not apply to Space Marines practically because their armour and their psychological conditioning rendered them immune to large swathes of it. These rules effectively penalized non-marine forces to varying degrees (mostly dependent on how marine-like they were), and with Marines being (or increasingly becoming) the de-facto baseline that led to all sorts of problems.

I'd argue that's the point where following their intended background too closely leads to the game being unfun. Half the units proclaiming they ignore/mitigate half the game mechanics is astoundingly terrible game design in my opinion.

It's a bit of a problem with WH40K in terms of trying to apply real-life combat mechanics in general. All the troopers don't fear anything, don't get tired, run at 90 km/h, dodge bullets, deflect tank shells with their swords, teleport around or reanimate themselves back from the dead. Astoundingly hard to implement any sembalance of real world tactics when so many combatants outright ignore everything that makes those work. Which is partly why modern 40K looks so weird to me in terms of its gameplay.

**Not Online!!!**

Tyran wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

But is that really the case?

Seems to be, there is no evidence in loss of sales and plenty of increases.

40k had a really successfull niche, one that nowadays get's more and more filled by 30k and other derivatives since arguably 8th onwards.

7th edition almost killed the game, which taught GW they couldn't rely on that niche.

Moreover I believe it was a stroke of brilliance to create 30k. That way 40k could go to seek a larger player base while 30k "covered the rear" and filled the niche left behind.

Well GW concluded that it couldn't sustain, even though 40k even then was way on the way to get more and more mainstream, it is arguable that their licensing and gaming endeavours massivly boosted interest aswell, but from personal experience, f.e. WHTW 3 (think of it as a TW game whatever you want in regards to quality) many players were severly dispointed and had no interest in AoS, others are holding out or preparing for ToW.

Further 30k excludes a large part of the community by design and era aswell, so it will never really be an adequate marketshare replacement, unless we get a great crusade expansion and decide to just ignore Tau for a moment and get a militia + old customizable tyranid dex DIY list ontop of that ( now that i think about that,... that be a blody awesome army list

).

It is also really a point of debate as to what killed 7th, from a core rule perspective beyond certain psy and random warlord traits (looking at you invisibility) there wasn't really an issue with the game, hence why 30k happily plodded along and even gained momentum (despite being mainline FW resin at the time.) whilest 7th stagnated and lost players, and i know quite a few players that in this era switched over.

Personally i think GW killed 40k off with their specific only webstore exclusivly available over the top formations, badly written and probably never playtested codices, and interference from the sales department to atleast once verifyably for the wriathknight.
Couple that with circumstances like the botched 6th edition (7th really should be renamed into 6.5 FAQ the game ) and i think many of us just got too fed up for GW to expect a return to normalcy to work, hence why 8th was a full burn down of the game. Basically, and i really hate that word, the Gamesytem became "toxic" and had to be ditched. And FWIW the knowledge that HH was a variant , kept me for quite a long time away from it aswell.

**A Town Called Malus**

His Master's Voice wrote:

I'm guessing you're a fan of Mortal Wounds?

No. I'm a fan of having meaningful decisions to make in a game.

**catbarf**

ERJAK wrote:
Let me clarify that I'm not against a morale based mechanic that's stronger than current battleshock, I'm against pinning as it's been implemented in 40k and Horus Heresy. You can give units penalties without fully removing them from the game.

If 40K or Horus Heresy games consisted of just a single turn, this complaint would make sense. Suppression is a temporary setback; a single turn out of commission in a 5-7 turn game. If your star unit is spending the whole game suppressed, you screwed up.

**AduroT**

catbarf wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Let me clarify that I'm not against a morale based mechanic that's stronger than current battleshock, I'm against pinning as it's been implemented in 40k and Horus Heresy. You can give units penalties without fully removing them from the game.

If 40K or Horus Heresy games consisted of just a single turn, this complaint would make sense. Suppression is a temporary setback; a single turn out of commission in a 5-7 turn game. If your star unit is spending the whole game suppressed, you screwed up.

I’m having flashbacks to that stupid Dark Eldar gun that gave you -1 LD per model under the template.

**stonehorse**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
While it would be nice to have arcs, pinning, suppressing fire, etc.

I think those things are work in games that are aiming to be a simulation of conflict.

40k is a game where super soldiers travel through hell to punch a physical manifestation of desire witb an electrified over sized fist.

It is far from being able even close to be suitable for a simulation type game. Instead it focuses more on being fun.

If people want serious, simulation games (which I play myself from time to time), they exists. But those are world's apart from what 40k is.

Exxxxceeepppttt......all of those things existed in 40k prior to 8th edition, and continue to exist in 30k. Please, try again.

They did, yes. As I have said on here previously, I think 3rd edition is the best edition of 40k, so far from ignoring the previous editions.

That all said and done, modern 40k, is leaning more into being fun and accessible. The designers have realised that the game plays quicker and has less barriers to entry in the streamlined version that they have envisioned for 10th.

It isn't going to be a game for people who want a deep level of meticulous planning, it is instead going for fun and ease of play.

A bit like comparing Rhino Hero to say Twiligjt Imperial. Both games, but one will have a far bigger catchment of people it can appeal to other the other.

Also, cut the snark lad, it just comes across as petulant.

Whether it's "fun" or "easy to play" remains to be seen, and is subject to personal preferences. And it doesn't look to be as much of either as 3rd edition was.

As for the "Snark", I'm long past "lad", and see no reason to cut "slack" to another "old timer".

The model range has more than doubled since 3rd edition. Which does impact what GW have to do with the game to make it accessible.

Warmachine/Hordes was a very involved game where facings meant a lot, and a model a inch forward or back could be the end of the game. It was a very tight set of rules... which meant that those who were good at it, and saw the rule combos to exploit dominated the game, and made it very unappealing to new players. This is why it is on life support, don't believe me, go read all the PP threads on here.

So, this is why GW are keeping it simple stupid (K.I.S.S), they want to make sure everyone at the table has a fun time playing. That is no bad thing, yes I would love them to go back to 3rd edition... or even better yet Betrayal at Calth (that game is so freaking good!), but with the sheer number of models and options they have to accommodate in the game. 10th is the result.

HH can do what it does as it is a much smaller game, the model range and options are nowhere near what 40K has.

**bullyboy**

Wow, that was the fastest scrolling of 3 pages of dakka in my life. Moving on….

**General Kroll**

bullyboy wrote:
Wow, that was the fastest scrolling of 3 pages of dakka in my life. Moving on….

It’s becoming increasingly difficult to look for posts that are actually on topic in this thread. Seems to have become the generic “why I hate 10th Edition, and why you should too.” Soapbox thread.

**AtoMaki**

stonehorse wrote:
So, this is why GW are keeping it simple stupid (K.I.S.S), they want to make sure everyone at the table has a fun time playing.

I'm more inclined to think that they are keeping it "simple and stupid" because it is the easiest way to justify not putting much effort into game development. So if someone dares to question the quality of the rules they can just say "we want to make sure everyone at the table has a fun time playing" and call the guy a jerk.

**AduroT**

General Kroll wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
Wow, that was the fastest scrolling of 3 pages of dakka in my life. Moving on….

It’s becoming increasingly difficult to look for posts that are actually on topic in this thread. Seems to have become the generic “why I hate 10th Edition, and why you should too.” Soapbox thread.

Very much so. I’m just kind of skimming it at this point and skipping ahead when I see several pages of updates at once.

**Tsagualsa**

General Kroll wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
Wow, that was the fastest scrolling of 3 pages of dakka in my life. Moving on….

It’s becoming increasingly difficult to look for posts that are actually on topic in this thread. Seems to have become the generic “why I hate 10th Edition, and why you should too.” Soapbox thread.

AduroT wrote:
General Kroll wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
Wow, that was the fastest scrolling of 3 pages of dakka in my life. Moving on….

It’s becoming increasingly difficult to look for posts that are actually on topic in this thread. Seems to have become the generic “why I hate 10th Edition, and why you should too.” Soapbox thread.

Very much so. I’m just kind of skimming it at this point and skipping ahead when I see several pages of updates at once.

This thread has (mostly) run its course - i'll keep it alive for some time after the 24th, at least till we have heard about the 'Special Preview' for whoever wins the Battle for Oghram, the Starter Sets and the Imperial Armour pdfs, but after that i'll ask for this one to be closed and will probably starting another, more general rumour roundup.

**Mr_Rose**

On flanking: I was always a fan of the Epic Armageddon method; if you can trace LoS to a friendly unit through the target unit and that friendly is in range of your guns, those guns inflict extra blast markers (suppressing effects).

Translating that to 40K might be a bit difficult but you could always be literal and have one blast marker mean one model in the unit can’t shoot/fight (you get to choose which any time it becomes relevant) or maybe base it on OC if you’re adding it to 10e.

**Shadow Walker**

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/idTDLhettxA8bXeg.pdf

**Not Online!!!**

catbarf wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Let me clarify that I'm not against a morale based mechanic that's stronger than current battleshock, I'm against pinning as it's been implemented in 40k and Horus Heresy. You can give units penalties without fully removing them from the game.

If 40K or Horus Heresy games consisted of just a single turn, this complaint would make sense. Suppression is a temporary setback; a single turn out of commission in a 5-7 turn game. If your star unit is spending the whole game suppressed, you screwed up.

This.

Spoiler:

If you run in HH a star unit (legion specific specialists of some sort) something like i dunno, sons of horus reaver squad, fully kitted out with Power weapons and increased in size to 10, you are then easily looking at a very killy melee squad that costs however the coresponding amount of points: namely with 10 power weapons, vexilia , 355 pts, asume a Legion champion and you look at another 95 pts atleast, so a unit that costs 450 pts.

That squad is nasty, it has precision hits on 6s, so you get to decide how wounds are spread with some of the your hits in shooting and more importantly melee, it has baseline 3 attacks for BP and Melee weapons 4 when it attacks and anything not armored better than PA will pretty much get butchered outright, whilest beating 9 shades of gak out of any other PA unit that isn't also an elite melee unit and even if it is if it get's the drop on said unit. Afterall 41 PS attacks tend to do so.

If you face a militia player (and to make that very clear, Militia is at the bottom of the power totem pole in HH, realistically only SA is worse but militia has the easiest way to mass LOS ignoring pinning firepower) and then proceed to let him shell that squad with atleast 3 batteries and assume that he always hits the squad enough with the arty templates (not that unlikely thanks to nuncio voxes but still a lot of luck already) to force not only atleast 1 wound through everytime (not guaranteed either) 3 times in a row to guarante statistically that your squad sits down and does nothing for a turn, and then proceeds to manage this feat 5 turns in a row, is irealistic.

Even if we assume the easiest way on points to achieve that (being 3x2 calliope mortars) which cost a comparative 255 pts and 3/4 of all your available Elite slots and as stated a metric shitton of luck, meanwhile all you had to do, is getting either a singular S8 weapon in range to instant death one piece of arty since its a measly T4 and then you already got a 50 % chance that the squad decides to run (ld7) and since it's artillery it just outright dies. Or even more realistic, you got 10 tacs in range that stood still or count as stood still, 20 shots, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, battery dead.

pinning is indeed harsh, but to get something actually pinned down you require quite a bit of effort and more importantly enough anti tank to open the glorified soupcan that is a rhino beforehand, or else your whole strategy went out the window. Or realistically in above scenario, atleast an proteus.

**Kanluwen**

I'm mostly unimpressed by the Combat Patrols.

**Shadow Walker**

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/20/free-combat-patrol-rule-downloads-let-you-fight-fast-balanced-skirmishes-in-the-new40k/

**Eldarsif**

General Kroll wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
Wow, that was the fastest scrolling of 3 pages of dakka in my life. Moving on….

It’s becoming increasingly difficult to look for posts that are actually on topic in this thread. Seems to have become the generic “why I hate 10th Edition, and why you should too.” Soapbox thread.

Yep, this discussion should probably move into its own separate thread.

**The Phazer**

Funny how Rhinos HKM aren't worth charging for in 10th ed and yet the Combat Patrols don't get them...

**Asmodai**

Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/idTDLhettxA8bXeg.pdf

Would it have killed them to make it form-fillable and auto-calculate the total?

The Phazer wrote:
Funny how Rhinos HKM aren't worth charging for in 10th ed and yet the Combat Patrols don't get them...

Then people wouldn't need to get a separate set of models for Combat Patrol.

**Daedalus81**

The Red Hobbit wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Oguhmek wrote:
the Stompa is still 800 points

lol

lmao

Eh. He has access to +1 to hit and some pretty big guns. It's an appropriate cost.

Surely this is a joke For 800pts you could have two Wraith Knights or two Imperial Knights. It is also disingenuous to allow a buff for the Stompa and not for the other faction.

Fate Dice need to be addressed. We already know it's an issue and that it's busted. We don't balance to the problem. A Stompa can swing hard and shoot unlike a double cannon WK.

**xttz**

Daedalus81 wrote:
A Stompa can swing hard and shoot unlike a double cannon WK.

Don't forget the ability to transport a full unit of grots! What's the point in krumpin' the enemy if you can't loot it after?

**The Phazer**

As previously guessed the Necron patrol has been replaced with no fliers. The old Marine Phobos patrol doesn't get any rules. The Death Guard remain unchanged sadly.

I can see a lot of fights against the Dark Angels ending with two turns of ineffectual blasting away at a Dreadnought as the one remaining model who can't achieve very much.

**Voss**

So... upgrades are free in the main game, but combat patrols must be built with specific unit load-outs down to accounting for every single weapon or upgrade to be balanced.

That's... sane.

**Aash**

Voss wrote:
So... upgrades are free in the main game, but combat patrols must be built with specific unit load-outs down to accounting for every single weapon or upgrade to be balanced.

That's... sane.

It’s almost like greater granularity is more important at smaller scales….

**Tsagualsa**

Aash wrote:
Voss wrote:
So... upgrades are free in the main game, but combat patrols must be built with specific unit load-outs down to accounting for every single weapon or upgrade to be balanced.

That's... sane.

It’s almost like greater granularity is more important at smaller scales….

I many cases it's literally what you can build with the box, with few to no options.

**NAVARRO**

Tsagualsa wrote:
Aash wrote:
Voss wrote:
So... upgrades are free in the main game, but combat patrols must be built with specific unit load-outs down to accounting for every single weapon or upgrade to be balanced.

That's... sane.

It’s almost like greater granularity is more important at smaller scales….

I many cases it's literally what you can build with the box, with few to no options.

I believe thats the baby steps for the future of 40K as a game.

**Nevelon**

Things like the Eldar box don’t go full upgrades.

Bikes are 1/3 scatter lasters. WL is missing a heavy.

Luckily both are easy to magnetize. But if I was a new player coming into the game and just glued everything to match the CP, I’d be a little torqued moving to full sized games.

**Voss**

Tsagualsa wrote:
Aash wrote:
Voss wrote:
So... upgrades are free in the main game, but combat patrols must be built with specific unit load-outs down to accounting for every single weapon or upgrade to be balanced.

That's... sane.

It’s almost like greater granularity is more important at smaller scales….

I many cases it's literally what you can build with the box, with few to no options.

In many cases its not. For example:

Ghallaron the Pious
(3 models)
■ 1 Ghallaron the Pious is equipped with: bolt
pistol; accursed crozius.
■ 2 Dark Disciples are equipped with: close
combat weapon.

Legionaries
(10 models)
■ 1 Aspiring Champion is equipped with: plasma
pistol; accursed weapon.
■ 4 Legionaries are equipped with: bolt pistol;
boltgun; close combat weapon.
■ 2 Legionaries are equipped with: bolt pistol;
Astartes chainsword.
■ 1 Legionary is equipped with: bolt pistol;
Astartes chainsword; Chaos icon.
■ 1 Legionary is equipped with: bolt pistol; heavy
bolter; close combat weapon.
■ 1 Legionary is equipped with: bolt pistol;
meltagun; close combat weapon.

Havocs
(5 models)
■ 1 Havoc Champion is equipped with: plasma
gun; Astartes chainsword.
■ 1 Havoc is equipped with: Havoc heavy bolter;
close combat weapon.
■ 1 Havoc is equipped with: Havoc lascannon;
close combat weapon.
■ 1 Havoc is equipped with: Havoc missile
launcher; close combat weapon.
■ 1 Havoc is equipped with: Havoc reaper
chaincannon; close combat weapon.

Helbrute
(1 model)
■ This model is equipped with: Helbrute plasma
cannon; Helbrute hammer.

Who would ever build their models this way? Why would anyone suggest that new players do that to themselves?
How is that mess even vaguely good for introducing players to the game?

This isn't even rare. The votann box demands the magna rifle for the hearthkyn and that the bikes take the anti-stealth light rather than ignore cover scanner, and that doesn't even make sense, given that stealth will likely not even turn up in most games of Combat Patrol.

Tau turn up with half carbines and half rifles, because what?

**leopard**

combat patrol: Plague Marines Run in a unit of Seven!

40k 10th: Plague marines only run in units of five or units of ten!!

meah

Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
combat patrol: Plague Marines Run in a unit of Seven!

40k 10th: Plague marines only run in units of five or units of ten!!

meah

also that force roster sheet...

a plain bit of paper does the job better, I sort of see why they have it, but for pities sake make it pure B&W, no shaded bits