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Just out of curiosity, why not? What marketing data are you using to make this evaluation? It's kind of odd that GW's professional business analysts with access to all of GW's internal data and market research would come to the opposite conclusion, but I'm assuming you have some grounds for disagreeing other than "I don't like those prices".
Aecus Decimus wrote: Initially I was relieved that a 20% increase means I can buy my stuff 20% slower and still participate in the hobby I love
None of us need this hobby, so this take isn't inherantly wrong. But I do find it to be a pretty hilarious response to the increase. I'd sooner just find a less masochistic hobby and focus on that.
I stopped playing over a year ago. So many mini's still need to be painted. Broke out all my mini's for Battletech now......way cheaper.
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Just out of curiosity, why not? What marketing data are you using to make this evaluation? It's kind of odd that GW's professional business analysts with access to all of GW's internal data and market research would come to the opposite conclusion, but I'm assuming you have some grounds for disagreeing other than "I don't like those prices".
No, Bob, it's because I also work in marketing (in a very different industry, mind you, but one that is effected by supply constraints and inflation) and don't ever recall being in a conversation about hiking the price of legacy products 20%. That's why.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/10 16:09:53
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: None of us need this hobby, so this take isn't inherantly wrong. But I do find it to be a pretty hilarious response to the increase. I'd sooner just find a less masochistic hobby and focus on that.
Sure. It's perfectly valid to decide that the hobby now costs more than you want to pay, or that you'd rather spend your money on other things. But that's not the same as being unable to continue in the hobby, the hyperbolic claim people are making to fish for sympathy.
Just out of curiosity, why not? What marketing data are you using to make this evaluation? It's kind of odd that GW's professional business analysts with access to all of GW's internal data and market research would come to the opposite conclusion, but I'm assuming you have some grounds for disagreeing other than "I don't like those prices".
No, Bob, it's because I also work in marketing (in a very different industry, mind you, but one that is effected by supply constraints and inflation) and don't ever recall being in a conversation about hiking the price of legacy products 20%. That's why.
GW have convinced themselves into a corner of ''we're special'' a long, long time ago, and even the flushing-out of kirbyite management has not fully undone this yet - as long as they insist on maintaining their own stores, and on ''The GW hobby'' being a different thing from tabletop wargaming at large, you'll have a very hard time in making them see common buisness sense. That being said, their practices are weird, but not unsuccesful - they managed to stay afloat and expand during multiple economic downturns in the last couple of decades.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: No, Bob, it's because I also work in marketing (in a very different industry, mind you, but one that is effected by supply constraints and inflation) and don't ever recall being in a conversation about hiking the price of legacy products 20%. That's why.
I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
Debate on Dakka would be a better place if people debated the topic and stopped throwing gak towards posters though.
Capitalism... well well well, I dont know about you, but not even experts seem to agree on what it was supposed to be and what actually is today.
In short leave those big fat "definitions" out of the table please XD
More than ever these big companies have to pretend to have a moral Backbone, its good for business you know.
So no GW is not totally amoral. I dont care either way.
Personally does not affect me at all, I have a determined amount of cash per month to spend on it, if I wish. I dont move from that. If a kit costs me more than that amount, I simply dont buy it or just save for next month. No problemo. Only thing that changes is the quantity of plastic.
They’re a significant element of GW’s success, for a variety of reasons.
First they’re recruitment centres.
Second they’re training centres.
Third. They’re High Street Visibility.
Four. They don’t really have competition on the High Street.
As a former Till Monkey I can go on and on about my tales in this realm, but I’ll spare you that. Pretty sure there’s an old thread floating about somewhere about recollections from former Till Monkeys. I think it’s in Dakka Discussions.
But they’re not the millstone many might think. A significant cost sink, absolutely. But a key part of the wider strategy all the same.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 16:18:48
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
In the UK, maybe. Here in the US, they tend to be stuffed into little out of the way strip malls not convenient to anyone but people specifically looking for them.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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NAVARRO wrote: Debate on Dakka would be a better place if people debated the topic and stopped throwing gak towards posters though.
Capitalism... well well well, I dont know about you, but not even experts seem to agree on what it was supposed to be and what actually is today.
In short leave those big fat "definitions" out of the table please XD
More than ever these big companies have to pretend to have a moral Backbone, its good for business you know.
So no GW is not totally amoral. I dont care either way.
Personally does not affect me at all, I have a determined amount of cash per month to spend on it, if I wish. I dont move from that. If a kit costs me more than that amount, I simply dont buy it or just save for next month. No problemo. Only thing that changes is the quantity of plastic.
This is one of the most sensible posts I’ve ever read.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
They'll keep doing it until there are consequences. What I'd be curious about, and I'm sure someone who pays attention to their quarterly reporting could probably answer this, is how much their volume has increased over the last 10 years. How much have they grown the business versus increased the profit from the same number of sales.
When something like the zone mortalis column and walls set, which is a pretty fringe 40k product, increases its price by 40+% in two years, I'd love to know who's still buying it in the volume you need to make a table.
In the UK, maybe. Here in the US, they tend to be stuffed into little out of the way strip malls not convenient to anyone but people specifically looking for them.
And there are far more independent stores, often with better locations, competing with them. I'll grant that it might be a great business model for the UK but it seems pretty questionable to apply it elsewhere.
I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
That's the thing for me, and maybe it's my memory/lack of time in the hobby. I don't recall GW doing a 20% increase in one go before. Especially not when they had an increase last year also. I'm not saying this is the death of them but I just don't see a high likelihood of this resulting in a net increase of revenues.
NAVARRO wrote: Debate on Dakka would be a better place if people debated the topic and stopped throwing gak towards posters though.
Capitalism... well well well, I dont know about you, but not even experts seem to agree on what it was supposed to be and what actually is today.
In short leave those big fat "definitions" out of the table please XD
More than ever these big companies have to pretend to have a moral Backbone, its good for business you know.
So no GW is not totally amoral. I dont care either way.
Personally does not affect me at all, I have a determined amount of cash per month to spend on it, if I wish. I dont move from that. If a kit costs me more than that amount, I simply dont buy it or just save for next month. No problemo. Only thing that changes is the quantity of plastic.
At the end of the day the simple and unpopular fact of the matter is that Warhammer™ is a hobby - it is neither food, energy, shelter, medical care nor water, and not strictly necessary for survival. If the prices are too high for your personal enjoyment, you can shop around for discounts or bargains, look to the alternative or secondary market, or quit the hobby, either for a period of time or totally. At this point, the yearly hike as almost a tradition, and it is clear that they're not interested in feedback or showing any sign that this practice will stop anytime soon. Useless complaining and getting bitter about this just detracts from your own qualitiy of life, GW no care.
In the UK, maybe. Here in the US, they tend to be stuffed into little out of the way strip malls not convenient to anyone but people specifically looking for them.
And there are far more independent stores, often with better locations, competing with them. I'll grant that it might be a great business model for the UK but it seems pretty questionable to apply it elsewhere.
I can only speak for my own experience 🙂
In the U.K., is a very successful model. Again I’d give personal examples of conversations, sales and what have you, but I’d only bore people.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 16:24:56
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
EviscerationPlague wrote: Here's a fact: I can buy a Gunpla for the same price as 5 dudes, $50+. I'd like to see you argue that the 5 dudes are more a luxury.
That's not what "luxury product" means in this context. It's about whether or not a product is essential, not perceived quality or elite status or whatever. Housing, food, etc, are essential products where you don't really have any choice about buying them. No matter how much the seller raises their prices relative to your income you still have to keep paying and there is huge harm done when people aren't able to afford those costs. Toys, regardless of brand, are not. If someone is unable to afford a GW kit no meaningful harm is done so there's no moral component to GW's pricing.
Oooh, be careful, HBMC might mock you for stating a fact!
Here's a fact: I can buy a Gunpla for the same price as 5 dudes, $50+. I'd like to see you argue that the 5 dudes are more a luxury.
Here’s a thought. Maybe a counter.
What do I do with a Gunpla once it’s bought and assembled?
GW stuff, I can field them in a game. The more a person plays, the greater their investment pays off.
If you’re buying purely to assemble, paint and display? Sure Gunpla May (depending entirely on personal taste) prove the wiser investment.
There's a number of independent games(both minis and RPGs) that are designed with GunPLA in mind as the minis. One of the FLGS in New Orleans runs regular upscaled version Alpha Strike rules using them.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
They'll keep doing it until there are consequences. What I'd be curious about, and I'm sure someone who pays attention to their quarterly reporting could probably answer this, is how much their volume has increased over the last 10 years. How much have they grown the business versus increased the profit from the same number of sales.
When something like the zone mortalis column and walls set, which is a pretty fringe 40k product, increases its price by 40+% in two years, I'd love to know who's still buying it in the volume you need to make a table.
Their yearly revenue made really big jumps for a couple of years - it more than doubled between 2014 and 2019, and rose another 60% since then, as you can see here:
Now, revenue is obviously not the same as profits, and there are probably some currency effects in there i.e. the devaluation of the GBP, but that is probably of lesser concern for them and it's very hard to argue with what will probably amount to quadrupling revenues in the 10-year period between 2014 and 2024.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 16:30:08
Oooh, be careful, HBMC might mock you for stating a fact!
Here's a fact: I can buy a Gunpla for the same price as 5 dudes, $50+. I'd like to see you argue that the 5 dudes are more a luxury.
Here’s a thought. Maybe a counter.
What do I do with a Gunpla once it’s bought and assembled?
GW stuff, I can field them in a game. The more a person plays, the greater their investment pays off.
If you’re buying purely to assemble, paint and display? Sure Gunpla May (depending entirely on personal taste) prove the wiser investment.
1. You can field GW stuff in a bad game where you're paying another $50 for a book, wowzers. Great defense there.
2. Games are slowly being designed to actually be compatible with Gunpla. Saw one at a Game Kastle not too long ago though I had to rush home before I could delve more into it.
Oooh, be careful, HBMC might mock you for stating a fact!
Here's a fact: I can buy a Gunpla for the same price as 5 dudes, $50+. I'd like to see you argue that the 5 dudes are more a luxury.
Here’s a thought. Maybe a counter.
What do I do with a Gunpla once it’s bought and assembled?
GW stuff, I can field them in a game. The more a person plays, the greater their investment pays off.
If you’re buying purely to assemble, paint and display? Sure Gunpla May (depending entirely on personal taste) prove the wiser investment.
There's a number of independent games(both minis and RPGs) that are designed with GunPLA in mind as the minis. One of the FLGS in New Orleans runs regular upscaled version Alpha Strike rules using them.
Fair
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
EviscerationPlague wrote: 1. You can field GW stuff in a bad game where you're paying another $50 for a book, wowzers. Great defense there.
2. Games are slowly being designed to actually be compatible with Gunpla. Saw one at a Game Kastle not too long ago though I had to rush home before I could delve more into it.
Call it a bad game all you like (and there are plenty of arguments that it is) but 40k is indisputably a popular game. Whether or not you personally enjoy the game many people do and it adds considerable value to their model purchases. And that's not at all comparable to some homebrew anime robot game with single-digit players.
And they just walked back the 20% increase and claim (possibly true) it was an error and whoever made the list used a wrong file.
....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
Luke82 wrote: Thank god there are so many intellectual titans around here to explain how capitalism and inflation work to us.
Initially I was upset that GW prices have become so ludicrous that I doubt I’ll ever start another army or buy into another one of their games ever again, but now the geniuses have stepped in I realise I was just being a snowflake with no concept of how a free market works.
Hopefully when these boffins have reached their break point, and are mourning being priced out of the hobby and world’s they’ve enjoyed since their childhood, there will still be enough even smarter people around to tell them how silly they are being.
If you've been enjoying them since your childhood, I'd wager you've a mound of stuff likely still on sprue/boxes to chew through, probably multiple armies and can continue to partake in every aspect of the hobby apart form meta chasing and buying stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mikhaila wrote: And they just walked back the 20% increase and claim (possibly true) it was an error and whoever made the list used a wrong file.
Where?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 16:42:50
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
They'll keep doing it until there are consequences. What I'd be curious about, and I'm sure someone who pays attention to their quarterly reporting could probably answer this, is how much their volume has increased over the last 10 years. How much have they grown the business versus increased the profit from the same number of sales.
When something like the zone mortalis column and walls set, which is a pretty fringe 40k product, increases its price by 40+% in two years, I'd love to know who's still buying it in the volume you need to make a table.
Their yearly revenue made really big jumps for a couple of years - it more than doubled between 2014 and 2019, and rose another 60% since then, as you can see here:
Now, revenue is obviously not the same as profits, and there are probably some currency effects in there i.e. the devaluation of the GBP, but that is probably of lesser concern for them and it's very hard to argue with what will probably amount to quadrupling revenues in the 10-year period between 2014 and 2024.
I'm not really interested in profits or revenue directly. I'm interested in the make up of the revenue and profits.
Why would they say that the price rise was on average 6%? Was it just incompetence? An outright lie? it's bizarre.
This seems like a PR disaster, a spectacular own goal, but as I've been saying, GW will just keep on GWing until they are hit in the pocket.
I've said that I had long ago accepted what GW are, but this does seem like they may have gone too far.
Time will tell.
The most benevolent take I can come up with is that the article strictly addresses their home market, based on this:
GW wrote:The average change for plastic kits is about 6%. As an example of what you can expect, a Battle Sisters Squad goes up £1.50 from £36 to £37.50.*
* Or local currency equivalent.
The average they calculated is strictly for GBP prices (and may still include all items sold by GW, even those that do not go up in price, to get a lower overall percentile increase to present something more palatable in the public announcement) and the addendum about local currency equivalent is meant to encompass the whole statement, not just the example Sisters squad, as a (deceptive) disclaimer that numbers may vary in different regions. It might be an attempt to make a claim that could be considered true under specific circumstances and therefore not an outright lie, but is not representative of the changes worldwide.
With Britain's economy in the toilet their strategy might shift to taking it easy(ish) on the home market because they have no expectation that local customers would or even could put up with more, and make up for it by increasing prices further outside Britain where the spectacle that is Brexit hasn't had much or any effect. They would then want to present the UK increase because it looks the best and hope that most customers don't follow things too closely. Because GW sets its foreign prices according to price bands of their own making rather than exchange rates, they could plausibly claim that their statement is true and that the intention was to present figures specifically for the British market because screw continentals and ungrateful colonials they are a British company and the rest of the world gets a little "or local equivalent" that they get to learn about when it comes into effect.
It would be a brazenly deceptive (that's marketing for you, right?) attempt to present themselves in the best possible light while doing something as unpopular as raising prices, and if they get called out they could still weasel their way out of it. So, marketing 101.
That's all hypothesis, of course. And like I said, deliberately as benevolent a scenario as I can make it.
