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 NAVARRO wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Conceptually I think GW is struggling with new ideas/niches for Tyranid creatures that don't already overlap with existing ones to some degree.

Its early to say how they will fully update the Tyranid, but if the Gaunts are any indication of whats coming then yes. I agree with you and IMO nids are Conceptually finished and have been for a long long time.

From a narrative point of of view on that trailer they are still the bad bug that needs to be squished... such boring old take
From a model design point of view the Gaunt is a slight cosmetic update with the exact same conceptual design... that route has been live for 20 years, it's time to move on. Nids evolve so fast that they adapt and generate new mods on the following wave on the same battle... yet Gaunts so far remain unchanged for decades. Makes no sense.
Even small little things like the fleet selected and its colours have been around forever.

I will reserve final judgment when we have more models and the gaunt may well be the one off stinker. But I fear nids ideas are stagnant and not evolving at all and just go around in circles.

Cold with all of this.

I don't mind the Termagant or other Gaunts being mostly unchanged aside from the odd biomorph or weapon options. The reason is because they are cannon fodder and mass produced. I know that sounds obvious but even a slight point increase (or resource spent spawning them) multiplied by however many millions or billions get spawned is a significant cost for the Hive Mind. Why waste too many resources on a creature that is meant to be expended and which can still kill most things through numbers? In background terms, the most common foe would be human equivalent, not Space Marines, and the Termagant does perfectly well against them. The 3rd edition mutation and design your Nid rules reflected this logic to an even greater extent when players did not bother with Fleshborers and used the cheaper Spinefist to create the even cheaper cannon fodder Spinegaunt.

Against specific select enemies a fleet might introduce changes, such as Hive Fleet Gorgon making its Gaunts resistant to pulse weapon fire. Note by resistant I don't mean they were immune, but maybe once in a while a shot would not be fatal and require a 2nd shot to put the creature down. Multiply that by millions or billions of Gaunts and still that adds up to suddenly the Tau expending much more ammunition.

So I see Tyranid "special characters" as rare variants or prototypes to be tested. If successful and cost effective, some of those features might be introduced into mass production in the main line of creatures if needed. Otherwise they might just stay as rare variants for specific battlefields and then to reabsorbed afterwards.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Don't want a new Carnifex though.

Don't you like the new SC from the video or do you like the current one so much, or both? I ask because I was, and still am a huge fan of the original SC, and I am really happy to see that modern version of it.

I don't want to lose the current Carnifex design. The Screamer-Killer being its own thing is fine but not if it means we lose the current kit.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Don't want a new Carnifex though.

Don't you like the new SC from the video or do you like the current one so much, or both? I ask because I was, and still am a huge fan of the original SC, and I am really happy to see that modern version of it.

Depending on the size of it there's probably room for a new-classic Screamer Killer in a squad support / superheavy infantry role, something like a Kroxigor or whatever, while the current 'fex acts more like a dreadnought or tank. The one in the video seems smaller than a tank-fex, sized more like a Centurion or Obliterator.

@Overread I agree. It’s easy to end up with armies starting to gain function of other armies, or worse we end up with redundant model kits because that army has ended up with several units for eg melee combat.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Don't want a new Carnifex though.

Don't you like the new SC from the video or do you like the current one so much, or both? I ask because I was, and still am a huge fan of the original SC, and I am really happy to see that modern version of it.

Depending on the size of it there's probably room for a new-classic Screamer Killer in a squad support / superheavy infantry role, something like a Kroxigor or whatever, while the current 'fex acts more like a dreadnought or tank. The one in the video seems smaller than a tank-fex, sized more like a Centurion or Obliterator.

I think that they want the Carnifex in a pure walker role, when tank role will be fulfilled by Tyrannofex etc. sized creatures, and therefore it will be smaller/shorter than the curent one.

I don't think the Carny needs to change any more than the gaunt has.

Update the kit with new styles and designs, improve the mould quality, add little vent tubes and such to the stacks on the back instead of just open vents and such.

I suspect we'd lose the 2-to-a-box (unless GW went with 3 in a box and made it more expensive)

"Universal special rules are back in the game – It doesn’t matter if you’re making a Dimensional Translocation or preparing Death From Below, it’s all a Deep Strike now!"

The madness of slightly different bespoke rules for one purpose is over. Thank christ for that.

Here's hoping they don't revert to the 7th edition madness of 20 pages, many of which simply give other special rules. Or take the HH model of having it split between multiplebooks.

But honestly, even those are better than the absolute pile of retardation which is the current 'system'.

 morganfreeman wrote:

"Universal special rules are back in the game – It doesn’t matter if you’re making a Dimensional Translocation or preparing Death From Below, it’s all a Deep Strike now!"

The madness of slightly different bespoke rules for one purpose is over. Thank christ for that.

Here's hoping they don't revert to the 7th edition madness of 20 pages, many of which simply give other special rules. Or take the HH model of having it split between multiplebooks.

But honestly, even those are better than the absolute pile of retardation which is the current 'system'.

100% this!

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Don't you like the new SC from the video or do you like the current one so much, or both? I ask because I was, and still am a huge fan of the original SC, and I am really happy to see that modern version of it.

As always, what we're getting interests me far less than what we're losing.

A a Chaos player of nearly 30 years I am far too used to having things clawed away from me. As a Tyranid player who's been playing them since before they even had their first Codex, the thought of losing what has taken so long to gain is terrifying.

As I said earlier in one of the recent news threads, the current Carnifex rules allow for 2x double Devourers. This is unusual in the world of no model/no rules, as the Carnifex kit does not contain four Devourers. It has two. However, by dint of nothing more than GW chosing to package Carnifexes two to a box, you technically get 4 Devourers, and hence the option remains in the rules. And, let's be as clear as we can be: This is the only reason that option is still in the rules.

If GW were to re-do the Carnifex, do you think it is more likely that it would:

1. Gain options.
2. Retain all its existing options.
3. Lose options.

New doesn't mean better. Remember that.

As to the specifics of your query, honestly we haven't got a good enough look at the Screamer Killer to really know what it looks like. Motion blur is a bitch! Having said that, I'm not against the Screamer Killer returning as its own unit, with its own kit. I'm am cool with adding things.

 Tyran wrote:
I don't want to lose the current Carnifex design. The Screamer-Killer being its own thing is fine but not if it means we lose the current kit.

This seems like a perfect solution to all problems.

 Irbis wrote:
Also abilities right on sheet, no sign of another 'one-size-fits-none' garbage, uNiVeRsAL SR. Excellent. Having 8-10 of them on a single weapon in new HH reminded me why I despised the inane system even way back in 5th edition, and that was when they were still reigned in and kinda-sorta universal instead of 100+ applies-to-single-unit/weapon cancerous growth they became later.

Spoke a little too soon, didn't we?

If they must split USR across books, just ensure each has a reference index.

Yes, I’m looking at you HH Books.

I will do that crib sheet at some point.

I second the irritation at things like Dance of Wombats: this unit has [USR that we could have just bloody put in the first fething place]

Fingers crossed that they avoid that.

My problem with the Nids as an army is that huge monsters are mostly one dimensional compared to the number of points required to field them; they pay a DEAR price for their supposedly "tough" statline (which was not tough in 8th and 9th at all compared to the firepower available to all factions).

Regarding models, i simply do not understand people who "don't want updates to old models", like the Carnifex. I do want a new Carnifex, new warriors, just like i want a new Lictor and Biovores.

Regarding roles, i feel that Tyranids are lacking in powerful guns on cheap infantry, but as others said, they are mostly "complete" and some models (usually the big ones) have continuous problems with their rules/cost rather than their models.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Regarding models, i simply do not understand people who "don't want updates to old models", like the Carnifex. I do want a new Carnifex, new warriors, just like i want a new Lictor and Biovores.

Regarding roles, i feel that Tyranids are lacking in powerful guns on cheap infantry, but as others said, they are mostly "complete" and some models (usually the big ones) have continuous problems with their rules/cost rather than their models.

There are a lot of good reasons to not want to update models. On the technical / gameplay side updating sometimes comes with rebasing and size shifts, which can make it more difficult to play with your OG models if a TO feels like being a bit of a prick. With regards to aesthetics the newer iteration rarely "fits" with the old one, meaning that you can run into a situation where your army looks very disparate and in a bad way. That's before getting into the cases where a new model is a straight visual downgrade from the old one (something a lot of people feel happened when nids went from 2nd ed to 3rd ed.

For my part I really like the modern fex. It's good looking, has aged very well, and (imo) most importantly is incredibly modular. Which is especially important when GW is pushing harder and harder for glorified push-fit kits for general units.

With regards to rules.. Nids don't really need powerful guns on cheap infantry. That's what their monsters are for. Nids are generally a horde army, so making those hordes incredibly dangerous on an individual basis is a recipe for disaster. Monster mash should be where the powerful individual models are, where as hordes are more weight of fire / attacks.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Regarding models, i simply do not understand people who "don't want updates to old models", like the Carnifex. I do want a new Carnifex, new warriors, just like i want a new Lictor and Biovores.

Regarding roles, i feel that Tyranids are lacking in powerful guns on cheap infantry, but as others said, they are mostly "complete" and some models (usually the big ones) have continuous problems with their rules/cost rather than their models.

There are a lot of good reasons to not want to update models. On the technical / gameplay side updating sometimes comes with rebasing and size shifts, which can make it more difficult to play with your OG models if a TO feels like being a bit of a prick. With regards to aesthetics the newer iteration rarely "fits" with the old one, meaning that you can run into a situation where your army looks very disparate and in a bad way. That's before getting into the cases where a new model is a straight visual downgrade from the old one (something a lot of people feel happened when nids went from 2nd ed to 3rd ed.

For my part I really like the modern fex. It's good looking, has aged very well, and (imo) most importantly is incredibly modular. Which is especially important when GW is pushing harder and harder for glorified push-fit kits for general units.

With regards to rules.. Nids don't really need powerful guns on cheap infantry. That's what their monsters are for. Nids are generally a horde army, so making those hordes incredibly dangerous on an individual basis is a recipe for disaster. Monster mash should be where the powerful individual models are, where as hordes are more weight of fire / attacks.

I get it, you don't want change, and you don't want new. You want things to remain as they are. Hardly a constructive point of view.

For me, the Carnifex kit just doesn’t need a redo.

Sure it’s knocking on a bit age, but it’s still a kit which stands up to more modern kits. It doesn’t look like an older kit once assembled, and has a bucket of options.

Would I say no to a redo? Not necessarily. But there are things in more urgent need of an update. Which hopefully we’ll get as well. But if say, the Biovore is skipped to redo the Carnifex? That’s a waste of a slot.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For me, the Carnifex kit just doesn’t need a redo.

Sure it’s knocking on a bit age, but it’s still a kit which stands up to more modern kits. It doesn’t look like an older kit once assembled, and has a bucket of options.

Would I say no to a redo? Not necessarily. But there are things in more urgent need of an update. Which hopefully we’ll get as well. But if say, the Biovore is skipped to redo the Carnifex? That’s a waste of a slot.

The kit? Probably not. The mould? Definitely. I just had to build one of the more recent batches and the wear is bad like apocalyptic. Basically none of the parts assembled correctly without being forced and even then filler was still needed in places. The finished model looks great and all but it was an absolute chore to assemble which is a shame since I remember it being a joy back in the day when it was new.

Mind you part of the issue is that the new Screamer Killer is notably different from the current Carnifex.

I mean, I like the new gaunts because they are clearly updates and improvements on the current designs and I should have little issue mixing them with my existing gaunt swarms.

But the Screamer-Killer is too different to simply be an update so I would prefer if it is an actual separate unit rather than a replacement.

 Tyran wrote:

But the Screamer-Killer is too different to simply be an update so I would prefer if it is an actual separate unit rather than a replacement.

But it would be weird to have it as a separate unit, and selling both models, when it is simply a Carnifex variant.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

But the Screamer-Killer is too different to simply be an update so I would prefer if it is an actual separate unit rather than a replacement.

But it would be weird to have it as a separate unit, and selling both models, when it is simply a Carnifex variant.

It is different enough that you can justify it being a separate unit.

I mean FFS Space Marines basically got away with pretty much every Primaris being a variant of an already existing Firstborn model without replacing the Firstborn version.

 Tyran wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

But the Screamer-Killer is too different to simply be an update so I would prefer if it is an actual separate unit rather than a replacement.

But it would be weird to have it as a separate unit, and selling both models, when it is simply a Carnifex variant.

It is different enough that you can justify it being a separate unit.

I mean FFS Space Marines basically got away with pretty much every Primaris being a variant of an already existing Firstborn model without replacing the Firstborn version.

And with having 5 different units that are differentiated by what gun they carry

Siegfriedfr wrote:


I get it, you don't want change, and you don't want new. You want things to remain as they are. Hardly a constructive point of view.

Bzzzt. Wrong.

I liked the 3rd edition Tyrant more than the current one. I think Genestealers and Gaunts / Gants could absolutely do with some new kits. I think elements of the Primaris range are excellent, noticeably better than munchkin-marines.

But having an opinion doesn't make someone afraid of change. And if someone is afraid of change due to GW's current design elements, that's pretty reasonable too. Or do you genuinely prefer that every 5 possessed / 7 plague marines / 10 ork boys / ect being the same dudes in the same pose, CSM not having enough bolters to go around, and every Ork Warboss being the same guy in the same pose is good?

I would love to proper Dog Sized termigaunts again in place of the pony/horse sized ones. Why wouldn't you want small soldiers who can hide and climb super well? It is a visual niche that no other army fills.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For me, the Carnifex kit just doesn’t need a redo.

Sure it’s knocking on a bit age, but it’s still a kit which stands up to more modern kits. It doesn’t look like an older kit once assembled, and has a bucket of options.

Would I say no to a redo? Not necessarily. But there are things in more urgent need of an update. Which hopefully we’ll get as well. But if say, the Biovore is skipped to redo the Carnifex? That’s a waste of a slot.

The kit? Probably not. The mould? Definitely. I just had to build one of the more recent batches and the wear is bad like apocalyptic. Basically none of the parts assembled correctly without being forced and even then filler was still needed in places. The finished model looks great and all but it was an absolute chore to assemble which is a shame since I remember it being a joy back in the day when it was new.

Fair point, and one I don’t have the experience to refute


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kestral wrote:
I would love to proper Dog Sized termigaunts again in place of the pony/horse sized ones. Why wouldn't you want small soldiers who can hide and climb super well? It is a visual niche that no other army fills.

Well, delving in the foetid morass of my mind? Termagants/Hunter Slayers were described, maybe “best guessed” as being small enough to crawl through a Hive Ship’s arteries to attack intruders from unexpected angles. Never the only line of defence, but a distraction.

Depending on how rigid their chitin is, that’s still possible, even with them being larger models. If it’s akin to a non-newtonian liquid type properties, it can still be effective armour.

Kind of like how Mesh armour was first described, now I think about it.

I look forward to reading another 5 pages worth of people waffling on about whether or not the carnifex is going to be getting an updated kit or not and what will happen when it does.

I don't have a horse in the race, but so far I'm loving everything I'm seeing, from the trailer to the other pics.

I could write an essay about such cool topic but no one wants to read that so I will just dip a bit and quote some parts instead XD

Tsagualsa wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Nids evolve so fast that they adapt and generate new mods on the following wave on the same battle... yet Gaunts so far remain unchanged for decades. Makes no sense.

Maybe gaunts are just an island of stability you arrive at after billions of iterations. Like crocodiles or sharks, they're just so near-perfect and efficient for their role that deviations from it are only temporary in the face of very specific circumstances, and in the long term you'll always fall back to the basic gaunt. Just playing devil's advocate here.

The cool question would be what is the ultimate goal of the Nid DNA manipulation? Generate the perfect nid organism or the perfect nid ecosystem?... Without the constant biomass assimilation to even a mineral level and the new DNA gained from that the race would not expand evolve into new things and would linger into extinction ( much like sharks and crocs are today).

Overread wrote:snip


2) Replace - remove a model and replace it with something new. This can work well but can be risky; people do not like losing models and often as not if the replacement is a similar size they will still use the old one. There's a few cases where its welcome - eg the new Greater Demons were generally very popular (plus a good many people can still run the old ones as demon princes).
But you've got to be careful - do it too often or too much and people can hate it. Esp when its not a material change (eg shifting a bunch from finecast to plastic)
snip

If there is a company that has the means to take a risk thats GW and I would welcome that for the sake keeping things going. You and me been with these designs for 20 years and in the beginning of that we were exited since these were fresh, considerably different etc... Can you say that now? No, you can only say that you liked they kept the concepts the same. I don't think these will age well another 20 years because they already have the baggage of the previous design.
I put them side by side to someone who is not aware or familiar with our toys and they will find it hard to say that these are different.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Nids evolve so fast that they adapt and generate new mods on the following wave on the same battle... yet Gaunts so far remain unchanged for decades. Makes no sense.

Makes sense to me.

The Hive Mind makes creatures to overcome specific obstacles. One would presume that if it made something that turned out to be generally useful in most situations, it would keep that "design" for continued use. So the Termagant was something it might have once created for a specific task, but found that it had value in other circumstances, so kept making it.

The motto of the Hive Mind should be "Anything you can do I can do better!".

Sure but dont you find it extremely unlikely a race that has at his disposal bazillions of DNA combinations not change at all? Specially when the first wave of this fleet was errr losing? Are you saying nid gaunts won all the battles? XD

Iracundus wrote:

I don't mind the Termagant or other Gaunts being mostly unchanged aside from the odd biomorph or weapon options. The reason is because they are cannon fodder and mass produced. I know that sounds obvious but even a slight point increase (or resource spent spawning them) multiplied by however many millions or billions get spawned is a significant cost for the Hive Mind. Why waste too many resources on a creature that is meant to be expended and which can still kill most things through numbers? In background terms, the most common foe would be human equivalent, not Space Marines, and the Termagant does perfectly well against them. The 3rd edition mutation and design your Nid rules reflected this logic to an even greater extent when players did not bother with Fleshborers and used the cheaper Spinefist to create the even cheaper cannon fodder Spinegaunt.
.

Cannon fodder should probably be smaller, less complex with no extra symbiotes weapons, harder to hit etc... heck Rippers probably better for that. Speaking resources why even bother with vestigial pair of limbs they have? Surely a gaunt with hands holding different guns ( why is this even a concept these days blows my mind) is more effective than say an ORK squig with 2 legs and a mouth running towards enemies XD

Good discussion folks keep it going.

Regarding Fex kit... I think it will happen, one per box, bigger, and with limited biomorphs ( imagine Redemptor dreads ) so they can sell more boxes.

 NAVARRO wrote:

Cannon fodder should probably be smaller, less complex with no extra symbiotes weapons, harder to hit etc... heck Rippers probably better for that. Speaking resources why even bother with vestigial pair of limbs they have? Surely a gaunt with hands holding different guns ( why is this even a concept these days blows my mind) is more effective than say an ORK squig with 2 legs and a mouth running towards enemies XD

Good discussion folks keep it going.

Regarding Fex kit... I think it will happen, one per box, bigger, and with limited biomorphs ( imagine Redemptor dreads ) so they can sell more boxes.

If we went by actual efficiency they'd run with flooding planets with viruses and bacteria until everything was soup, not even bothering with larger organisms at all - that would kill everything not protected by completely sealed environments or suits, and these would be pretty much rounding errors to the biomass equations, not able to do anything about it anyway and would have to leave once the 'nids were done with the now-lifeless and -ressourceless ball of rock. It would not make for engaging stories though.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

Cannon fodder should probably be smaller, less complex with no extra symbiotes weapons, harder to hit etc... heck Rippers probably better for that. Speaking resources why even bother with vestigial pair of limbs they have? Surely a gaunt with hands holding different guns ( why is this even a concept these days blows my mind) is more effective than say an ORK squig with 2 legs and a mouth running towards enemies XD

Good discussion folks keep it going.

Regarding Fex kit... I think it will happen, one per box, bigger, and with limited biomorphs ( imagine Redemptor dreads ) so they can sell more boxes.

If we went by actual efficiency they'd run with flooding planets with viruses and bacteria until everything was soup, not even bothering with larger organisms at all - that would kill everything not protected by completely sealed environments or suits, and these would be pretty much rounding errors to the biomass equations, not able to do anything about it anyway and would have to leave once the 'nids were done with the now-lifeless and -ressourceless ball of rock. It would not make for engaging stories though.

Are you really saying that a Swarm of ORK squigs running towards the enemy and spitting different nasty things ( if you really want some ranged options) is less engaging than a gaunt with a pistol?

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Regarding models, i simply do not understand people who "don't want updates to old models", like the Carnifex.

How much more clearly can I explain the reasons why beyond what I have already said?

Siegfriedfr wrote:
I get it, you don't want change, and you don't want new. You want things to remain as they are. Hardly a constructive point of view.

What's not constructive is you ignoring every word he just said to instead insult him.

Try harder.

I'd have thought the main reason to fear change is £££.

Surprised to see the love of the Carnifex kit. Never really rated it. Always felt it was too small and hunched - which guess reflects where the Carnifex has ended up in the wider hierarchy - versus its 2nd edition high days - but still.

But right now, you can buy 12 Termagants for £22.50. Do the new ones look better? Sure. Is that going to make up for being say £35~ for 10 (probably)? So 50-75% more expensive? You can debate it. Especially if Termagants were to say go back down to say 5 points and the rules are very much "bring 90 of these guys or nothing".