Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 dreadblade wrote:
I was pretty excited for the return of Epic, but 30K doesn't really do it for me.

Same for me. Although I like 30k as a setting, I wanted to play Tyranids, and unless this version will get super popular, and thus alowing for 40k version, it will not be possible very soon or maybe even never.

Can't see any order dice either

 Tastyfish wrote:
Can't see any order dice either

Orders may still exist an be marked in some other way, e.g. with cards; also, it's hard to make out anything distinctly in that pixelated shot. It might also be possible that some of the accessories are sold separately because they're not strictly necessary for play and easy to make another handful of pounds from for GW.

Wonder if we might end up seeing Emperor Class Titans now.

They didn’t make sense for AT, as they’d basically be your Maniple. But within Epic? Still a significant part of your force, sure. But far from the only thing you took.

Plus I want to get scuttling into legs and blowing them off again. That was always good for a laugh.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:
Can't see any order dice either

Orders may still exist an be marked in some other way, e.g. with cards; also, it's hard to make out anything distinctly in that pixelated shot. It might also be possible that some of the accessories are sold separately because they're not strictly necessary for play and easy to make another handful of pounds from for GW.

It might even more be more like Warmaster or Titanicus's repair roles (roll x dice per unit, some orders are trickier than others), but no visible order dice and blast markers whilst having visible templates and range rulers says to me that it's not a straight port over of Epic: Armageddon that had been rumoured at one point.

Might even be something more directly compatible with Titanicus...with that game slotting in as advanced rules if you have a lot of Titans.
Fingers crossed we get a vague outline next week.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wonder if we might end up seeing Emperor Class Titans now.

They didn’t make sense for AT, as they’d basically be your Maniple. But within Epic? Still a significant part of your force, sure. But far from the only thing you took.

Plus I want to get scuttling into legs and blowing them off again. That was always good for a laugh.

Yeah it was pretty hard to justify models like Imperators under AT rules because half of their functionality was designed around Epic; weapon systems for all kinds of targets, troop transport capacity, etc.

I think the same idea applies to other units like Rapier scout titans too. They lend themselves to lighter weapons more suited for clearing infantry and tanks. Hopefully they show up as part of Epic, with rules ported for AT.

Still I can't see GW wanting to make Emperor-class titan models until near the end of this release cycle, much like how the Warmaster released 3 years into AT. It's a lot of production resources that could go into multiple other kits, including terrain.

leopard wrote:
wondering if what you will get is blocky "fixed" formations, with a card that records damage and stats

keep in mind Adeptus Titanicus is basically totally different to what it used to be

may well go the route of "the contents of this box includes the card to deploy it", with only a few weapon swaps.

I'd love it to have the flavour and detail the 1st edition had but not holding my breath

the models look nice, this will stand or fall on pricing and the rules

That's basically how 1st, 2nd, and 4th editions were - you bought formations and had a little bit of customizability. Epic 40k introduced the "make your own detachment" for maximum flexibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:


Epic infantry models were often made just large enough so that you could tell similar units apart, resulting in guardsmen at the same size as space marines. In order to support the needed details things like greater daemon equivalents initially had to be much larger than their 28mm counterparts, who were themselves made smaller than intended due to the cost of lead models.

The inconsistency was often within the same frame. The 1997 Space Marine frame had Scouts and characters towering over the mk7 tacticals. The original metal daemon infantry (not even greater daemons, but the horrors and bloodletters) were so large (like, larger than dreadnoughts) that they were based one per unit base (these were eventually corrected with the 1998 plastic Chaos frame - but then the Chaos Marines on that frame were larger than Space Marine Terminators lol). This always bugged me because they produced metal infantry during the Titanicus / Epic 1st era that were sized well but somehow completely went insane with Epic 2nd edition metal releases

If you played Epic during the nineties like myself (started with 2nd ed) you just had to shrug because nothing matched anything else

The only version of Epic I have ever played was Epic Armageddon, and it is absolutely one of my favorite games of all time. Its take on suppression, via Blast Markers is just perfection to me for representing a battle at this scale.

It sounds like all the other versions of Epic were functionally a different game altogether, though?

 judgedoug wrote:

leopard wrote:
wondering if what you will get is blocky "fixed" formations, with a card that records damage and stats

keep in mind Adeptus Titanicus is basically totally different to what it used to be

may well go the route of "the contents of this box includes the card to deploy it", with only a few weapon swaps.

I'd love it to have the flavour and detail the 1st edition had but not holding my breath

the models look nice, this will stand or fall on pricing and the rules

That's basically how 1st, 2nd, and 4th editions were - you bought formations and had a little bit of customizability. Epic 40k introduced the "make your own detachment" for maximum flexibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:


Epic infantry models were often made just large enough so that you could tell similar units apart, resulting in guardsmen at the same size as space marines. In order to support the needed details things like greater daemon equivalents initially had to be much larger than their 28mm counterparts, who were themselves made smaller than intended due to the cost of lead models.

The inconsistency was often within the same frame. The 1997 Space Marine frame had Scouts and characters towering over the mk7 tacticals. The original metal daemon infantry (not even greater daemons, but the horrors and bloodletters) were so large (like, larger than dreadnoughts) that they were based one per unit base (these were eventually corrected with the 1998 plastic Chaos frame - but then the Chaos Marines on that frame were larger than Space Marine Terminators lol). This always bugged me because they produced metal infantry during the Titanicus / Epic 1st era that were sized well but somehow completely went insane with Epic 2nd edition metal releases

If you played Epic during the nineties like myself (started with 2nd ed) you just had to shrug because nothing matched anything else

yes but in 1st you bought say a "Tactical detachment", six stands and three Rhino, my concern is the "detachment" will now be closer to a company with support units as one "thing"

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
The only version of Epic I have ever played was Epic Armageddon, and it is absolutely one of my favorite games of all time. Its take on suppression, via Blast Markers is just perfection to me for representing a battle at this scale.

It sounds like all the other versions of Epic were functionally a different game altogether, though?

Epic had some wild variation between editions - it started out very detailled, with stuff like detailled hit and damage charts for different superheavies, detailled weapon rules and so on, then the 'Epic 40k' edition changed a lot of that, reducing shooting basically to a single firepower chart, barrage weapons and a handful of special rules instead, that tanked pretty hard and support was cut soon after the release, and then Epic: Armaggedon restored a lot of the complexity, but not the point of detail the earliest editions had. And of course Epic:Armaggedon came at the time when Specialist Games were banished to their own, undersupported niche and withered on the vine (at least considering official support) as a consequence.

1st edition was detailed, but good and it worked

2nd edition streamlined a few bits, slightly simplified force creation, changed how titans worked and consolidated some profiles

from what I saw after that GW tried to make a "pure" game with firepower ratings etc but at the same time completely killed the flavour of it

Net Epic seems to be a decent compromise though

Epic Armageddon was probably the best refinement.

Its immediate predecessor took all the flavour out the game, but introduced some new and interesting things, like blast marker suppression and crossfire adding to that.

Epic Armageddon took the best bits of that and 2nd Ed and produced a pretty decent game. Sadly by then Epic 40K had wreaked it’s havoc and it proved too little, too late.

suspect also GW were worried about it taking sales from 40k in 28mm

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/02/sunday-preview-a-primarch-a-rebel-and-a-kommando-walk-into-a-warhammer-store/

Next week on Warhammer Community we will be revealing a new Star Player for Blood Bowl, and taking a much closer look at Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis, including a look at the core concepts, and answers to your burning questions.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Epic Armageddon took the best bits of that and 2nd Ed and produced a pretty decent game. Sadly by then Epic 40K had wreaked it’s havoc and it proved too little, too late.

It was not only that Epic 40k was not a good game, it was also that weird ghetto the Specialist Games were put in. I have no idea how it was handled in the UK, but in Germany at that time it meant that anything Specialist Games might as well not have existed - all content was put into (english) magazines that got no translation (unlike White Dwarf, which had it's own editorial staff that made translations and produced their own content in German as well), were a hassle to order and obtain (you basically had to do mail order in the UK, with added charges for currency exchange and whatnot) and so a lot of people who would have been interested in it were actively pushed out of that particular game because GW literally constructed obstacles on the way to their product. It was just about bearable if you were fluent in english, had an internet connection and either a bank that was good at doing international stuff or a credit card (all of that not very common in Germany at that time), but it definitely absolutely killed the visibility of the game, impulse purchases and FLGS gaming.

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/02/sunday-preview-a-primarch-a-rebel-and-a-kommando-walk-into-a-warhammer-store/

Next week on Warhammer Community we will be revealing a new Star Player for Blood Bowl, and taking a much closer look at Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis, including a look at the core concepts, and answers to your burning questions.

excellent, should be reasonably clear quickly if its a reheat of something old or a ground up re-write, plus how it links to Titanicus (if it links to Titanicus)

Ooh there we go, so hopefully not too long to wait on the rules front.

Mozzamanx wrote:Looking at Etsy, first set of 3d printed Rhinos I found were £6.99 for 3, including postage.
Interested to see if that shop gets shut down, and how much GW will charge for plastic.

There are tons of the original Epic rhinos still about on eBay, usually reasonably priced as lots of the things sold across editions. Vanguard also do a nice 'not Rhino, which looks close enough to an M113.. sorry, to a Rhino

judgedoug wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Better than “count up your total firepower, then consult the chart, then consult the chart modifiers, then grab that many dice, then roll them”.

It was a horrendous system for Epic, spesh coming off the back of 2nd Ed.

Epic 40000 was my favourite version of epic to play, It actually felt right for the scale. Loved it.

Indeed. It's the only version of Epic my group plays. And since we're stating opinion as fact, Epic 40,000 3rd is one of the best rulesets ever written. I have a snowball's chance in hell of this game being based on Epic 40,000 but it sure would be nice. If anything, this game will enter my group is a game we play occasionally but will will almost certainly continue to play Epic 40,000 as our defacto large-scale game.

It might have more than a snowballs chance! The lack of blast markers in the photos makes me think Armageddon -style rules are less likely, as they are an integral part of how that game plays. Jervis Johnson said the Epic 40,000 rules were the best rules he ever wrote, if this was indeed the last game he was involved.in before retirement, that sounds a bit more likely.
But then I look at the number of minis, and it seems too small for Epic 40,000, and for that to be any sort of meaningful game size..

Maybe it is something new? Maybe they have decided, hey I know we have two of the finest rulesets produced during GW's golden age by legends of the company in our back catalogue, with community feedback which has honed those games into perfectly balanced, characterful games, but we can do better than that?.. .
That will be some barry-big-balls decision right there if they have!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wonder if we might end up seeing Emperor Class Titans now.

They didn’t make sense for AT, as they’d basically be your Maniple. But within Epic? Still a significant part of your force, sure. But far from the only thing you took.

Plus I want to get scuttling into legs and blowing them off again. That was always good for a laugh.

Eh no. Warmaster would be for game where you can field multiple warlords with ease. When epic had multiples of warlords? Epic armageddon even 1 was tough to fit.

 Pacific wrote:


It might have more than a snowballs chance! The lack of blast markers in the photos makes me think Armageddon -style rules are less likely, as they are an integral part of how that game plays. Jervis Johnson said the Epic 40,000 rules were the best rules he ever wrote, if this was indeed the last game he was involved.in before retirement, that sounds a bit more likely.
But then I look at the number of minis, and it seems too small for Epic 40,000, and for that to be any sort of meaningful game size..

Maybe it is something new? Maybe they have decided, hey I know we have two of the finest rulesets produced during GW's golden age by legends of the company in our back catalogue, with community feedback which has honed those games into perfectly balanced, characterful games, but we can do better than that?.. .
That will be some barry-big-balls decision right there if they have!

This is my main problem with this review really- the set looks nothing more than about what I'd expect the average 40k scale gamer to have as part of their army (perhaps minus the warhounds) It certainly doesn't cry out 'Epic Scale Battles!'. Its more like 'Play games of normal Heresy just very slightly cheaper'.

I'm also surprised they put two warhounds in the set. I know they are playing this off as a '2 player starter', but honestly they should have just done away with that. Would have improved it immensely had there been some knights, a super heavy tank or two, or way more infantry (either marine or human). This feels more like someone in the warehouse had excess stock and decided that would bulk the set up.

I suspect this is an entirely new ruleset. I honestly suspect the rules will support a game size of about 4th Ed size at most. I suspect anyone wanting to play truly epic scale games will have to look to 3rd ed, or pick up the most recent version of apocalypse 40k that was about a few years ago.

If the model scale works for me, and I buy into the range I'll probably play it safe and stockpile everything I'd want for at least two full 3rd Ed size forces rather than risk the range being removed at any time.

1st edition would have handled it fine, had games with half a dozen warlords, and the same again in smaller classes on a side backed by 10-20 companies of troops and vehicles

 Pacific wrote:

It might have more than a snowballs chance! The lack of blast markers in the photos makes me think Armageddon -style rules are less likely, as they are an integral part of how that game plays. Jervis Johnson said the Epic 40,000 rules were the best rules he ever wrote, if this was indeed the last game he was involved.in before retirement, that sounds a bit more likely.
But then I look at the number of minis, and it seems too small for Epic 40,000, and for that to be any sort of meaningful game size..

Maybe it is something new? Maybe they have decided, hey I know we have two of the finest rulesets produced during GW's golden age by legends of the company in our back catalogue, with community feedback which has honed those games into perfectly balanced, characterful games, but we can do better than that?.. .
That will be some barry-big-balls decision right there if they have!

If there are no blast markers, then it's not Epic 40,000 rules. That was the edition that introduced the blast markers / suppression rules.

And (as I said many pages back) I doubt Jervis would risk using the Epic 40K ruleset again even if he were involved. He acknowledged it wasn't the kind of game the fanbase wanted to play. It's a great game, but maybe not a great Games Workshop game, if you see what I mean ...

Maybe the Space Marines will use Armageddon rules, the ordinary guys will use Epic 40K rules and the Titans will use 2nd edition SM/TL rules, so we can go all meta and have the ancient and bitter Epic fanbase civil war represented on the tabletop. Legions Imperialis: The Jervis Heresy.

yes it was a good "pure" game in an abstract sense, what it lacked was a reason to play it, for me there was zero draw into it as against any other game. the 40k connection was at best a thin skin. could have been WW1, could have been an ancients set or rules, could have been modern day

the earlier versions felt constrained to at least try to represent the universe if that makes sense, written around elements of it, not just adding some names as an afterthought

had they actually marketed it under a different brand specifically as a more abstract strategy and tactics game it could have done better

 RexHavoc wrote:

This is my main problem with this review really- the set looks nothing more than about what I'd expect the average 40k scale gamer to have as part of their army (perhaps minus the warhounds) It certainly doesn't cry out 'Epic Scale Battles!'. Its more like 'Play games of normal Heresy just very slightly cheaper'.

So small starter set that contains only small part of average game is average 40k army? Okay sounds like they will be bigger battles than 40k then.

tneva82 wrote:

 RexHavoc wrote:

This is my main problem with this review really- the set looks nothing more than about what I'd expect the average 40k scale gamer to have as part of their army (perhaps minus the warhounds) It certainly doesn't cry out 'Epic Scale Battles!'. Its more like 'Play games of normal Heresy just very slightly cheaper'.

So small starter set that contains only small part of average game is average 40k army? Okay sounds like they will be bigger battles than 40k then.

well as noted apart from the warhounds many 40k armies are larger, especially if thats both sides

if its typical GW an actual game with "only" the starter box will feel very bland and it will be written for a lot more - to be honest I'd prefer the box with that at a reasonable price over twice that at twice the likely price

as long as you can get more, and as long as you can use the marines and infantry alongside each other as a single force

leopard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 RexHavoc wrote:

This is my main problem with this review really- the set looks nothing more than about what I'd expect the average 40k scale gamer to have as part of their army (perhaps minus the warhounds) It certainly doesn't cry out 'Epic Scale Battles!'. Its more like 'Play games of normal Heresy just very slightly cheaper'.

So small starter set that contains only small part of average game is average 40k army? Okay sounds like they will be bigger battles than 40k then.

well as noted apart from the warhounds many 40k armies are larger, especially if thats both sides

if its typical GW an actual game with "only" the starter box will feel very bland and it will be written for a lot more - to be honest I'd prefer the box with that at a reasonable price over twice that at twice the likely price

as long as you can get more, and as long as you can use the marines and infantry alongside each other as a single force

Imho it's clear they wanted to have at least some sort of centerpiece in form of the titans, and with the rest: they can't really win. If they just had added more Marines, the people that hate everything centering on Marines would have complained, and if it was just Army everybody would have asked 'where are my Marines?'. And if the starter box was too good of a deal, it would have led to problems with it selling out too fast (it will sell out anyway, probably). Keep in mind it's a true starter, with book and everything, not just the box of the week. It's not intended to be an almost-complete force that you don't need to add on stuff to.

Tsagualsa wrote:
I have no idea how it was handled in the UK, but in Germany at that time it meant that anything Specialist Games might as well not have existed..

I remember the UK launch very well. Epic was initially being pushed as GW's third main game system and something they had invested heavily into. Following the initial boxed game release (that I picked up on release day) there were monthly follow-up waves with White Dwarf with a good chunk of the magazine showing off Epic content including updated core units each of the major factions; marines, then orks, tyranids, eldar and guard. Everything was available to buy in stores until near the end of 1997.

However the game clearly did not sell anywhere near their expectations. It took a few months for the sales figures to factor into new issues of White Dwarf, but once they did the change was stark. Any new releases melted away even despite Chaos still not recieving any support for the new edition. Those models finally dropped a full year after Epic 40k first dropped, and was clearly put out to try and recoup some of the investment.

After that GW did something you rarely see these days; a firesale. Not a surprise in hindsight given what we know now. Any remaining Epic 40k stock in stores was unloaded at a 50% discount. I naively picked up a second copy of the boxed game for £25 without realising what that sale actually meant.

I think GW taking what had been injection plastic models in 1st edition and literally recasting them into metal at higher prices didn't help

leopard wrote:
as long as you can get more, and as long as you can use the marines and infantry alongside each other as a single force

It was said on the stream that the entire box can be used as one army.

leopard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 RexHavoc wrote:

This is my main problem with this review really- the set looks nothing more than about what I'd expect the average 40k scale gamer to have as part of their army (perhaps minus the warhounds) It certainly doesn't cry out 'Epic Scale Battles!'. Its more like 'Play games of normal Heresy just very slightly cheaper'.

So small starter set that contains only small part of average game is average 40k army? Okay sounds like they will be bigger battles than 40k then.

well as noted apart from the warhounds many 40k armies are larger, especially if thats both sides

if its typical GW an actual game with "only" the starter box will feel very bland and it will be written for a lot more - to be honest I'd prefer the box with that at a reasonable price over twice that at twice the likely price

as long as you can get more, and as long as you can use the marines and infantry alongside each other as a single force

And even with warhounds this isn't even close to typical army size in epic.

And what 40k army has 100 marines and 100 ig? The list i made to spam infantry has around 75. So above box has more plus ig and 2 titans and still isn't even close to average game size.

 Gert wrote:

leopard wrote:
as long as you can get more, and as long as you can use the marines and infantry alongside each other as a single force

It was said on the stream that the entire box can be used as one army.

thats good at least, which means you likely have the ability to get a box to try it, and then if others get a box you both have a semi decent sized force

expecting a few Titan heavy games at first, use what you have etc.

hopefully its flexible, but on the plus side, not too long to find out