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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Epic Armageddon was probably the best refinement.

It was also the only game in GW's history with public development and playtesting, right? Funny that.

 xttz wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
I haven´t seen any gaming aids for the game so far such as dice, measuring tape (cm or inches?) templates and specific markers. So what about them?

The video in the article shows the back of the box, and includes a photo of the box contents. The classic 3 templates are shown along with whippy stick rulers and some white dice. There's also a sheet of card tokens that are hard to make any details on.

By checking the back of the box, everything cries out as based in 2nd edition (the worst for big Epic battles):

- Flamer template
- No blast markers
- Lots of tokens
- Also the Close Assault Factor (CAF) joke

What a dissaster. But seeing that the size of the battle is going to shrink (bigger and more expensive minis)... it makes kind of sense...

Sunday preview says that we are going to see an article on the core concepts of W:HH:IL

"taking a much closer look at Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis, including a look at the core concepts, and answers to your burning questions"

the flamer template could be an artefact of wanting the 3" & 5" round ones, or even just the 3" one and its easier for GW to use the sprue they have

that said its likely going to be used for Titan flamers and similar big stuff

wonder if we will be back to "issue orders in secret"?

 Tastyfish wrote:
W:HH:IL

The acronym is actually horrible!

I think I'm just going to adopt Epic 5th Ed, or Epic:Legions(E:L) as the name going forwards! I don't have enough time to paint all my minis, let alone try and get along with the new naming scheme!

The bigger problem is....how much this gak will cost lol

Should be $40? Or $50? That way one could buy more boxes...but if they say $100....$150....then one will spend as if it was 40k

tneva82 wrote:

And even with warhounds this isn't even close to typical army size in epic.

And what 40k army has 100 marines and 100 ig? The list i made to spam infantry has around 75. So above box has more plus ig and 2 titans and still isn't even close to average game size.

While we have little to base speculation on for Epic right now, what we do have are two other established HH boxed games where models can all be grouped into one side:

Age of Darkness contains around 1500-2000pts of units for what's typically (I believe) a 3000pt HH game. So 50-66%

The Adeptus Titanicus starter contains approx. 1200-1300pts for one side, around 60% of a typical game.

It's probably fair to assume for now that this box is in the same ballpark. You can double up on it to get a full size army on day one, add new Epic-specific units like Land Raiders or Baneblades as they appear, and/or just round out a more flexible list using the titans, knights, and aircraft already available.

Epic has usually scaled fairly well, and certainly I always enjoyed putting its name into reality with quite grand sized battles.

In terms of complexity? For resource management, there’s AT. For care of positioning, there’s AI. Epic will, hopefully, stick to its roots and not be a particularly complex game for shooting and hitting each other in.

2nd Ed’s complexity and nuance came from Orders and how the different forces had exceptions, and the Alternating Activation method. Plus the Goal was “first to X VPs”, with X being determined by the points size of the game. Objectives gave 5 a piece, and you could typically bag a good chunk of the target just from taking Objectives. Certainly it then meant you could annihilate some smaller enemy units to get you over the top. Plus tanks had lesser saves for rear and possibly side shots - I’d need to refresh my memory to be sure though.

E40k and Armageddon were about using your attacks strategically to suppress enemy units, and how you could mitigate the same happening to you. I don’t recall how you scored VPs or otherwise won the game.

But either way, with the actual Horrible Deplorable Violkns being straight forward, you really had to be playing huuuuuge games before the respective systems started freaking under their own weight.

 judgedoug wrote:
The inconsistency was often within the same frame. The 1997 Space Marine frame had Scouts and characters towering over the mk7 tacticals. The original metal daemon infantry (not even greater daemons, but the horrors and bloodletters) were so large (like, larger than dreadnoughts) that they were based one per unit base (these were eventually corrected with the 1998 plastic Chaos frame - but then the Chaos Marines on that frame were larger than Space Marine Terminators lol). This always bugged me because they produced metal infantry during the Titanicus / Epic 1st era that were sized well but somehow completely went insane with Epic 2nd edition metal releases

If you played Epic during the nineties like myself (started with 2nd ed) you just had to shrug because nothing matched anything else

Case in point: regular space marine and scout from the same frame:

I'm going to be calling the game Epic Imperialis myself until a general consensus for a more compact name arrives

The guesstimate of the box contents amounting to ~60% of forces for a typical game sounds about right.. But I'm also thinking this box will go for preorder alongside other SKUs, so people can splurge and impulse buy their way to a larger army off the bat (buying several boxes to do it doesn't sound customer friendly for a new game, all those surplus books etc would be redundant)

I was at a LGS today buying primer, and almost impusle bought a Warlor Titan and a Reaver in anticipation of this game LOL! Terrain set was 55€ for a bunch of stuff, seemed ok considering how many hundos I've had to spend on my 28mil terrain collection

It may be because limited contact due to pre-internet, but I don’t recall anyone being terribly fussed at the time that the scale was obviously a bit wonky.

Modern day of course we do expect and will hopefully receive better

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It may be because limited contact due to pre-internet, but I don’t recall anyone being terribly fussed at the time that the scale was obviously a bit wonky.

Modern day of course we do expect and will hopefully receive better

The minis were markers and we were generals overseeing a bigass battle. That was good enough. And still is.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It may be because limited contact due to pre-internet, but I don’t recall anyone being terribly fussed at the time that the scale was obviously a bit wonky.

Modern day of course we do expect and will hopefully receive better

Basically correct (though the mk6 tactical were so tiny that my group at the time referred to them as baby marines) but what is interesting is that despite the just absolutely horrible scaling in releases, especially during Epic 2nd edition, the rose-tinted glasses brigades are out in full force all over facebook claiming that the new game is an abomination because Ian Wood's scale picture shows marines being 8mm tall. These same chuckleheads of course have been buying 8mm tall forumware marines since the mid 2000's...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It may be because limited contact due to pre-internet, but I don’t recall anyone being terribly fussed at the time that the scale was obviously a bit wonky.

Modern day of course we do expect and will hopefully receive better

It will be a lot better but still kinda abstract - take a look at that optional Hvy stubber on one of the Solar Auxilia tanks for example (its way to big). Seems like they have taken some effort in ensuring the bits are still rugged enough not to break during the first game, this will skew the scale of some things a bit

 judgedoug wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It may be because limited contact due to pre-internet, but I don’t recall anyone being terribly fussed at the time that the scale was obviously a bit wonky.

Modern day of course we do expect and will hopefully receive better

Basically correct (though the mk6 tactical were so tiny that my group at the time referred to them as baby marines) but what is interesting is that despite the just absolutely horrible scaling in releases, especially during Epic 2nd edition, the rose-tinted glasses brigades are out in full force all over facebook claiming that the new game is an abomination because Ian Wood's scale picture shows marines being 8mm tall. These same chuckleheads of course have been buying 8mm tall forumware marines since the mid 2000's...

We had to ban some people and warn others to stop being bad eggs in the wider 6mm wargaming group. This was a year ago when it was only AT models, or people using vanguard stuff. I fully expect it to blow up the first time anyone shares any of the new models, and the woodworms crawl out their planks and try to get us to ban GW games as its not really '6mm scale'. I can't wait to explain again that '6mm' is a size, not a scale and carry on sharing Epic models in the general group

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

E40k and Armageddon were about using your attacks strategically to suppress enemy units, and how you could mitigate the same happening to you. I don’t recall how you scored VPs or otherwise won the game.

E40k's system is quite frankly the best system I have ever played. IF you played a scenario that used Army Morale (as there was a near infinite number of scenarios, including asymmetric battles with true strategic fog of war, and some scenarios did not use Morale), then you began with Morale based on the size of your army. Taking or holding or completing different types of Objectives increased your Morale, or decreased your enemy's Morale. Detachments breaking and being destroyed reduced your morale. Blast markers that remain on your detachments reduce your Morale. If you reach zero Morale your army automatically disengages. This extraordinarily flexible system allows for a tremendous variety in game outcomes and it is not rare to have an asymmetric battle with an army being wiped out while still winning the scenario due to having held or completed the objectives dictated by the scenario, or by the Fog of War mission.

The Fog of War mission still remains my favorite way of playing any game ever. Each player has their xxxx points army, let's say 2000 points, already built and organized into their detachments. The infantry or vehicle detachment that is the lowest points overall in your army is the Vanguard. Each player receives a secret mission (randomly chosen from a total of thirteen) as well as what your commander tells you you can use to accomplish this mission. Each player also deployed a set number of objectives which may or may not actually matter. So one player may get:

Vanguard +25% You are ordered to move out and grab a new strongpoint, and then dig in and stop any possible enemy assault. Casualties are of no consequence! If you hold one Take & Hold objective and your Cleanse objective is clear of the enemy at the end of the 4th or any subsequent turn, then you have achieved your mission.
(so this player would get their Vanguard detachment plus 500 points of other detachments)

while another player may get:

Entire army The enemy forces on your front must be crushed. You must either wipe out one enemy detachment or reduce any two to below half strength. In addition, your own losses (in number of units and/or Damage Capacity lost) must not exceed those of the enemy. If you have achieved these objectives at the end of any turn then you have achieved your mission.
(so this player would get their entire army at their disposal)

Nobody knows what the other player's objects nor their final committed army size is as only Vanguards are deployed and all remaining forces will enter as reserves at your own discretion. Based on your opponent's actions you have to try to ascertain what their mission is to prevent them from completing it all the while attempting to complete your own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Its immediate predecessor took all the flavour out the game

I have never understood this argument. Epic 2nd was wild, every unit had it's own special rules and everything from lascannons to bolters and whatnot had their own statline and it took FOREVER to play. And it was still my favorite GW game growing up. But the player scale was all wrong. You are ostensibly the commander of a thousand figures on the table, so why do you as a general care about autocannons versus lascannons versus heavy bolters?
Epic 40k correctly repositions the player as the army commander so that you don't give a crap about autocannons and heavy bolters, you just care if units are good at assaults, firefights, fire support, antitank. It frees you up to make tactical decisions based on how you've designed your detachments and every unit works as advertised.
As someone with multiple 2nd edition armies and a ton of playtime I can absolutely tell you that Epic 40k's armies play _completely differently_ to each other while Epic 2nd was primarily a difference in weapon statlines, and that "flavor" argument went right out the window. What happened was it became less granular (and sped up gameplay tremendously) and the rules focused on how units and detachments performed (and sped up your decision making tremendously). Epic 40k _added_ the flavor and the playstyles of each army actually feels right.

Don't get me wrong though if having a 2nd ed company card firing four different weapons profiles that took 10 minutes to resolve is your thing, then by all means play it and enjoy it

In any discussion about Epic, the probability that it will turn into an argument aboit scale reaches 1 the longer it goes on

SU-152 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
I haven´t seen any gaming aids for the game so far such as dice, measuring tape (cm or inches?) templates and specific markers. So what about them?

The video in the article shows the back of the box, and includes a photo of the box contents. The classic 3 templates are shown along with whippy stick rulers and some white dice. There's also a sheet of card tokens that are hard to make any details on.

By checking the back of the box, everything cries out as based in 2nd edition (the worst for big Epic battles):

- Flamer template
- No blast markers
- Lots of tokens
- Also the Close Assault Factor (CAF) joke
...

Yes, although that volume of units would last one or two turns in Epic SM with them attacking each other, I don't think it is enough for that rule system.

1st in theory had a scale, thats while the Hellbore and Capitol Imperialis were huge, with 2nd they gave up which is why the squat land train wasn't huge and why the Leviathan, meant to be larger than the Imperialis, was smaller

they sort of went with "its a token saying that is roughly there, don't think about it too much".

in effect the game board became a virtual representation of a battlefield as presented to a commander more than an actual battlefield

pay your money, make your choice, it works either way really, though for me a set scale looks better as then you have a basic IG trooper next to "OMG thats huge"

 RexHavoc wrote:

We had to ban some people and warn others to stop being bad eggs in the wider 6mm wargaming group. This was a year ago when it was only AT models, or people using vanguard stuff. I fully expect it to blow up the first time anyone shares any of the new models, and the woodworms crawl out their planks and try to get us to ban GW games as its not really '6mm scale'. I can't wait to explain again that '6mm' is a size, not a scale and carry on sharing Epic models in the general group

Time to post the picture Aeronautica Grot Bommer pilot next to the 1997 plastic Epic gretchin that are mysteriously the same size LOL

 Pacific wrote:
In any discussion about Epic, the probability that it will turn into an argument aboit scale reaches 1 the longer it goes on
.

As soon as someone manages to work out how to harness Epic scale threads into generating power, we'll see unlimited clean energy!

 judgedoug wrote:

 RexHavoc wrote:

We had to ban some people and warn others to stop being bad eggs in the wider 6mm wargaming group. This was a year ago when it was only AT models, or people using vanguard stuff. I fully expect it to blow up the first time anyone shares any of the new models, and the woodworms crawl out their planks and try to get us to ban GW games as its not really '6mm scale'. I can't wait to explain again that '6mm' is a size, not a scale and carry on sharing Epic models in the general group

Time to post the picture Aeronautica Grot Bommer pilot next to the 1997 plastic Epic gretchin that are mysteriously the same size LOL

Ha yes! Or the fact that the doors and balcony on the back of the warlord titan is exactly the right shape and size for a 6mm human!

 judgedoug wrote:

I have never understood this argument. Epic 2nd was wild, every unit had it's own special rules and everything from lascannons to bolters and whatnot had their own statline and it took FOREVER to play. And it was still my favorite GW game growing up. But the player scale was all wrong. You are ostensibly the commander of a thousand figures on the table, so why do you as a general care about autocannons versus lascannons versus heavy bolters?
Epic 40k correctly repositions the player as the army commander so that you don't give a crap about autocannons and heavy bolters, you just care if units are good at assaults, firefights, fire support, antitank. It frees you up to make tactical decisions based on how you've designed your detachments and every unit works as advertised.
As someone with multiple 2nd edition armies and a ton of playtime I can absolutely tell you that Epic 40k's armies play _completely differently_ to each other while Epic 2nd was primarily a difference in weapon statlines, and that "flavor" argument went right out the window. What happened was it became less granular (and sped up gameplay tremendously) and the rules focused on how units and detachments performed (and sped up your decision making tremendously). Epic 40k _added_ the flavor and the playstyles of each army actually feels right.

Don't get me wrong though if having a 2nd ed company card firing four different weapons profiles that took 10 minutes to resolve is your thing, then by all means play it and enjoy it

It makes perfect sense once you grok that GW's version of 'flavour' basically just means having details that are one 'level' of resolution deeper than would be healthy/usual at that type of game. That's how you get platoon-level wargames where you keep track of individual grenades and individual troopers jammed guns, company-level wargames where you care about different kinds of rapid-fire battle rifles on your basic squads, and in the case of epic, ostensibly a battalion-level wargame at least, the situation that you described above. Reducing that to a firepower table and a handful of special rules at most indeed felt like sucking out the flavour, because in the GW-brand definition it was.

 Kiiroitori wrote:
The bigger problem is....how much this gak will cost lol

Should be $40? Or $50? That way one could buy more boxes...but if they say $100....$150....then one will spend as if it was 40k

You only have to look at Aeronautica to take a guess at how this is going to priced. Using an example, in Aeronautica, 6x Xiphons in a box (3 per sprue, 2 sprues) is $50, and 2x Storm Eagles (1 per sprue, 2 sprues) in a box is $50.

Looking at the contents of the Legion Imperialis game, I'm predicting that:

* Each of the Marine infantry detachments is on its own sprue, with 2x Dreadnaughts on the sprue. You're getting two sprues worth (4x Dreadnaughts). I predict they'll sell two sprues seperately as a box for $50.
* The same for the Solar Auxilia infantry, with two sprues/detachments to a box, so another $50 there.
* The Predators will be 3 to a sprue like the Xiphons, with 2 sprues to a $50 box (6 tanks). So that's $25.
* The Sicarans looks middle sized, so maybe 4 to a box, 2 per sprue. So another $25.
* Similar logic with the Auxilia tanks, with two half boxes, making up $50.
* Finally the Warhounds - that's easy, a box of two costs $75.

So that's $275 of miniatures, then you have the rules, dice etc on top. A slight discount and I reckon it's a $200-250 box.

thing is though, I never did get why people said the earlier editions took so long, take 1st which probably had the most granular effects

this tactical marine stand shoots at that one

1. measure range
2. check range for a range modifier
3. check target for a target modifier
4. check for an orders modifier (e.g. first fire was +1, charge was -1)
5. roll to hit
6. if hit, check save modifier
7. roll to save

and in practice you knew the modifiers so it tended to be "I fire at that detachment with this detachment, I have 6 dice, 4+ to hit, down to a 3+ for short range" *rolls dice* "3 hits, 3 saves, no modifier"

but then 1st had remarkably few "special rules", it was just weapon profiles and the unit profiles, then have at it

of course you did have assault marines who went into battle chanting "equipped with jump packs" which neither they nor they enemy understood but its just what you did

The game's really going to use the old templates? They take on a whole new meaning at a game of this scale. I take it they're for use with Titans?

Also: two HQs, two squads of Terminators, 4 Squads of Marines, a Heavy Weapon Squad, a Special Weapon Squad, an Assault Squad, 3 Predators, 2 Sicarians and 4 Dreads.

Seems... not epic. To me. Feels more like a a big game of 40k (or 30k).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Better than “count up your total firepower, then consult the chart, then consult the chart modifiers, then grab that many dice, then roll them”.

It was a horrendous system for Epic, spesh coming off the back of 2nd Ed.

It was FANTASTIC. Love that system.

I'm most excited about the new plastic weapon sprue for Warhounds with new weapons and rules for AT. A melta weapon has some great potential.

I'm not interested in the Legions game, though. I have my toes in enough game systems already and having some AT Titans doesn't feel like much of a head start. There are cheaper alternatives for Epic SM minis, but I already have a Epic Tyranid army and someone can wake me when those get rules.

 gorgon wrote:
I'm most excited about the new plastic weapon sprue for Warhounds with new weapons and rules for AT. A melta weapon has some great potential.

I'm not interested in the Legions game, though. I have my toes in enough game systems already and having some AT Titans doesn't feel like much of a head start. There are cheaper alternatives for Epic SM minis, but I already have a Epic Tyranid army and someone can wake me when those get rules.

I'm pretty confident that there will be reasonably well-balanced unofficial rules out for the Xenos before long. So even if you're not personally interested in the Imperial stuff, I'd say that there's a fair chance that you'll have some new potential opponents before long if the game is decent.

Looking at the picture of the box contents they appear to break down like this:

• 2x Marine infantry sprues (5 HQ, 10 Assault Marines, 10 Cataphractii Terminators, 40 Tactical Marines, and 2 Dreadnaughts)
• 1x Predator sprue (3 Predators)
• 1x Sicaran sprue (2 Sicarans)
• 2x Solar Auxilia sprue (5 HQ, 10 Flamer Auxiliaries 20 Lasrifle Auxiliaries, 10 Veletarii Shock Troops, and 4 Charonite Ogryns)
• 1x Aethon Heavy Sentinel sprue (4 Sentinels)
• 1x Leman Russ sprue (4 Leman Russ Tanks)
• 1x Malcador sprue = (2 Malcadors)
• 3x Warhound Titan sprues (2 Warhounds)

 Breotan wrote:
Looking at the picture of the box contents they appear to break down like this:

I came to the same conclusion a few posts above, though I’m not sure on the Sentinels having their own sprue. I think it’s more likely there’s two on each Solar Auxilia sprue.

MrHobbles wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Looking at the picture of the box contents they appear to break down like this:

I came to the same conclusion a few posts above, though I’m not sure on the Sentinels having their own sprue. I think it’s more likely there’s two on each Solar Auxilia sprue.

I thought this at first, but I think the Ogrins are actually taking that spot. The Sentinals are also appear to be a lot more complex than the Dreadnaughts, requiring more pieces on a sprue.