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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah, essentially the “deck” guns, mounted on the hull.

Wondering if Point Defence will be guns you shoot during combats.

That is interesting... because the only things different on the Coax autocannon (a single one) from the Kratos Autocannons (two, on sponsons) are the special rules.

Or would that mean that the stats are for each individual sponson instead of both?

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Can someone explain the terminator card? They show twenty terminators in a box, with 4 boxes underneath it. In 2nd each silhouette represented 1 unit. I assume this is now one silhouette per model, so twenty silhouettes is 4 stands of five, (I think there is a little smidge extra separation by fives if you look closely) why are there 4 more cards under the main card with the silhouettes? Why not just make the card with 4 silhouettes and be done?

Yes you can add up to 4 stands, but that makes it look like you could add 4x20 models not 4x5 models. Just looks like a poorly thought out layout to me.

Appears to be one extra card for every unit/stand you can add. The Terminator and Kratos card has four extra cards and can add 4 extra units. The Thunderhawk card has two cards and can add two units.

 Ohman wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Can someone explain the terminator card? They show twenty terminators in a box, with 4 boxes underneath it. In 2nd each silhouette represented 1 unit. I assume this is now one silhouette per model, so twenty silhouettes is 4 stands of five, (I think there is a little smidge extra separation by fives if you look closely) why are there 4 more cards under the main card with the silhouettes? Why not just make the card with 4 silhouettes and be done?

Yes you can add up to 4 stands, but that makes it look like you could add 4x20 models not 4x5 models. Just looks like a poorly thought out layout to me.

Appears to be one extra card for every unit/stand you can add. The Terminator and Kratos card has four extra cards and can add 4 extra units. The Thunderhawk card has two cards and can add two units.

It has to be 4 more stands of 5 and not 4 more stands of 20.

No one in their right mind wouldn't take 4 more stands of 20 (80) for 30 points when the original 20 costs 50 points.....

He's right, the card graphics are wonky.

 zedmeister wrote:
Detachment cards confirmed...


...that'll go out of print rapidly

They go full 2nd Epic! Love it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:
My concern here is that they have taken a game (in Epic Space Marine) for which one of it's greatest strength was it's streamling and speed of play, and easy to remember rules, and made it immediately less accessible.

Yes if I play tons I will remember the rules but how exactly are you meant to bring new players or casuals in? Or my mate who has two hours every fortnight to play when he is away from work, finally managed to get the kid to bed and wants a quick game?

This feels again like it is going to be another case of Necromunda, "for us, not for them" and casuals can wait outside. Completely going against the general trend of how game design within the industry is seeking to streamline, cognisant that gaming is competing with 100 other leisure activities and people have less free time than ever.

Do the people that design these games never play *anything* else from outside the circles that they operate in? Realise I may be going a bit OTT here, but I'd the rest of this game follows this trend into a granularity U-bend, you don't need to point out where those end up.

GW offers already 40K for casual play. Let the specialist games be for veterans of the 90s as it should be.

 TalonZahn wrote:

 Ohman wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Can someone explain the terminator card? They show twenty terminators in a box, with 4 boxes underneath it. In 2nd each silhouette represented 1 unit. I assume this is now one silhouette per model, so twenty silhouettes is 4 stands of five, (I think there is a little smidge extra separation by fives if you look closely) why are there 4 more cards under the main card with the silhouettes? Why not just make the card with 4 silhouettes and be done?

Yes you can add up to 4 stands, but that makes it look like you could add 4x20 models not 4x5 models. Just looks like a poorly thought out layout to me.

Appears to be one extra card for every unit/stand you can add. The Terminator and Kratos card has four extra cards and can add 4 extra units. The Thunderhawk card has two cards and can add two units.

It has to be 4 more stands of 5 and not 4 more stands of 20.

No one in their right mind wouldn't take 4 more stands of 20 (80) for 30 points when the original 20 costs 50 points.....

He's right, the card graphics are wonky.

I can sketch out a a better layout in like a minute.....its horrible UI. Card with 4 silhouettes, plus sign, card with two silhouettes with another card placed back underneath. Much clearer.

Also anyone notice that there is no Break Point on these cards? In 2nd Ed once you killed so many stands from a card that card was considered broken and gave victory points.....doesn't look like that system is here anymore.

Had a quick look at the Manitc Warpath rules Alissio Cavatore is one of the designers, looks a lot like epic, but has pinning (Blast Markers) used D8's instead of sixes, has some interesting command mechanics for spending command points. Looks like it could be solid.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:

 Ohman wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Can someone explain the terminator card? They show twenty terminators in a box, with 4 boxes underneath it. In 2nd each silhouette represented 1 unit. I assume this is now one silhouette per model, so twenty silhouettes is 4 stands of five, (I think there is a little smidge extra separation by fives if you look closely) why are there 4 more cards under the main card with the silhouettes? Why not just make the card with 4 silhouettes and be done?

Yes you can add up to 4 stands, but that makes it look like you could add 4x20 models not 4x5 models. Just looks like a poorly thought out layout to me.

Appears to be one extra card for every unit/stand you can add. The Terminator and Kratos card has four extra cards and can add 4 extra units. The Thunderhawk card has two cards and can add two units.

It has to be 4 more stands of 5 and not 4 more stands of 20.

No one in their right mind wouldn't take 4 more stands of 20 (80) for 30 points when the original 20 costs 50 points.....

He's right, the card graphics are wonky.

I can sketch out a a better layout in like a minute.....its horrible UI. Card with 4 silhouettes, plus sign, card with two silhouettes with another card placed back underneath. Much clearer.

Also anyone notice that there is no Break Point on these cards? In 2nd Ed once you killed so many stands from a card that card was considered broken and gave victory points.....doesn't look like that system is here anymore.

Some Legion rules address the Broken condition so morale is going to be fairly similar to what we had back in the day.

So, one side of the cards is for army building and one side is for play. Why do the Terminator and Thunderhawk cards say on the „play“ side how many models are in a detachment/squad etc, while only the Kratos card has that info, correctly, on the „build“ side?

Yea this gak is too fiddly. Coaxial autocannon has its own profile? Dead to me. Massive step back from E:A and even 8th edition Apocalypse.

Will the game be released this month or later?

They said available August, so presumably pre-orders in the next couple of weeks.

With all the senseless complexity (*how* many weapons on a single Kratos?!), this game strikes me as less 'Epic 40(30)k' and more 'Horus Heresy, just with smaller models'. Surely the whole point of games at this scale is to represent significantly larger armies than at the 28mm scale, and to simplify individual models/units down in order to accomodate that without needing a week to play the game? From everything shown today, this game is doing the opposite of that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They said available August, so presumably pre-orders in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks.


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 MalusCalibur wrote:
With all the senseless complexity (*how* many weapons on a single Kratos?!), this game strikes me as less 'Epic 40(30)k' and more 'Horus Heresy, just with smaller models'. Surely the whole point of games at this scale is to represent significantly larger armies than at the 28mm scale, and to simplify individual models/units down in order to accomodate that without needing a week to play the game? From everything shown today, this game is doing the opposite of that.

Tanks had several guns too in 2nd Epic.

 RexHavoc wrote:
"Detachment cards"

Well...good luck to those that are interested in these new rules. Cards will be on sale for less than 7 minutes on pre-order day, then on ebay for €50+ come lunch time.

I had a funny feeling that Legions was going to ape new-necromundas release.

Well, I like the minis anyway. I'm not going to keep complaining its just clear the game is not made for me. But thankfully Epic minis work for all versions of the game. I'll be happy as long as my FLGS can get in my 10+ boxes of rhinos!

That assumes card required to play and not just play aid like in 40k.

So far seen nothing that requires card.

Giving a large gun platform tank a couple of weapons is "senseless complexity"? Wtf is the matter with people

Yeah, there were plenty of superheavies - Leviathan, Colossus, Capitol Imperialis - that had plenty of guns in 2nd.. it doesn't slow things down as much as you'd think when you're dealing with likely a few small detachments of 2/3 big tanks.

Psyched for this personally, even though I haven't the slightest intention of buying as I won't be able to afford it X-D but lovely to see Epic back

Billicus wrote:
Giving a large gun platform tank a couple of weapons is "senseless complexity"? Wtf is the matter with people

Im not even sure it gets to use all those weapons, aren't some of those alternative options? If its like its HH model you have to pick which loadout it carries, it doesn't get both the Battlecannon and the Meltal blast gun, its one or the other, same with the sponson options, its either Lascannons or Heavy bolters, I think you have to chose between the lascannon or the Auto canon also. So really only 4 weapons systems on each not 8. Again the card is confusing, poorly laid out and needs work.

People need to relax, but GW needs to do a much better job with these cards.

Four. The Kratos has four weapons.

Turret
Co-Axial Autocannon
Hull
Sponsons.

That’s it. If you’re overwhelmed by that, I don’t know what to say. Spesh as that’s a Heavy Tank, so most others are going to have Turret and Sponson only.

 Skinflint Games wrote:
Yeah, there were plenty of superheavies - Leviathan, Colossus, Capitol Imperialis - that had plenty of guns in 2nd.. it doesn't slow things down as much as you'd think when you're dealing with likely a few small detachments of 2/3 big tanks.

Psyched for this personally, even though I haven't the slightest intention of buying as I won't be able to afford it X-D but lovely to see Epic back

Yeah but those were much larger super heavies, most of the Baneblade chassis large tanks only had a few weapons systems....but I think its really people misreading the horribly written card as having 8 weapons all the time. This card is like if you put all the Baneblade chassis options on one card and people thought you got to use all the weapons on one.

Andrew1975 wrote:

 Skinflint Games wrote:
Yeah, there were plenty of superheavies - Leviathan, Colossus, Capitol Imperialis - that had plenty of guns in 2nd.. it doesn't slow things down as much as you'd think when you're dealing with likely a few small detachments of 2/3 big tanks.

Psyched for this personally, even though I haven't the slightest intention of buying as I won't be able to afford it X-D but lovely to see Epic back

Yeah but those were much larger super heavies, most of the Baneblade chassis large tanks only had a few weapons systems....but I think its really people misreading the horribly written card.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Four. The Kratos has four weapons.

Turret
Co-Axial Autocannon
Hull
Sponsons.

That’s it. If you’re overwhelmed by that, I don’t know what to say. Spesh as that’s a Heavy Tank, so most others are going to have Turret and Sponson only.

Yeah, it's pretty much intended to lock in some flavour by arc-limiting many of the weapons: the Kratos is a supporting linebreaker, so it's good against targets it's facing and vulnerable to flanking operations to a degree. The card is stuffed, but the actual selection from it considerably less so.

MalusCalibur wrote:With all the senseless complexity (*how* many weapons on a single Kratos?!), this game strikes me as less 'Epic 40(30)k' and more 'Horus Heresy, just with smaller models'. Surely the whole point of games at this scale is to represent significantly larger armies than at the 28mm scale, and to simplify individual models/units down in order to accomodate that without needing a week to play the game? From everything shown today, this game is doing the opposite of that.

It's a bit more 'zoomed out' than 30k/28mm in that it simplifies a lot of the complexiy in Close Combat and model positioning away, but is less zoomed out than e.g. Epic40k or even Epic:Armageddon, in that it keeps more distinctions between weapons and loadouts. IMHO that's a wise choice for a game that will be mostly populated by marines with a variety of support elements, as you need some more ways to distinguish between things for as long as the range of units is limited like this. I also have a suspicion that they start this foray into small scale deliberately more zoomed in, to give people an opportunity to buy in with smaller forces, before zooming out some more in a second edition in a few years time.

Bigger the model is, more guns it shall have.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Four. The Kratos has four weapons.

Turret
Co-Axial Autocannon
Hull
Sponsons.

That’s it. If you’re overwhelmed by that, I don’t know what to say.

There's also the option for the hull & sponson weapons to share an identical profile and combine the dice. So possibly just 3 weapons.

hams wrote:

I am looking at trying to understand creating a list based on the WarCom "Demi Company" preview and the launch box. From the pastbin leak, it has a "Detachment Size" column that I assume is the number of stands in a detachment. Astartes looks to have typically 4 stands for each infantry attachment. The launch box appears to only have 2 stands of plasma support and 2 stands of missile launcher support. This doesn't appear to be a legal set of stands for a formation, especially based on this Demi Company which requires 1 support detachment. Or "Detachment Size" is something else and the detachments are actually 2 stands each?

Hoping someone more familiar with SM2 might be able to comment on how this works.

Responding to my own post probably breaks some rule, but here goes anyway.

I looked at the previewed Legion Terminator Detachment card. It says "A Legion Terminator Detachment consists of 4 Legion Terminator models".

In the launch box, we have 10 Terminators, which pictured are put 5 models on a base with 2 bases. Nowhere here do I find the number 4. I know that Formations contain Detachments, but that's it... GW seems to freely use terms like model(s) and unit(s) which is totally unclear what that means in the LI context.

Furthermore, on the list building side of the card, the image shows 20 terminator silhouettes... So.. do we have 4 bases of 5 terminators, or 5 bases of 4 terminators. I would assume 5 bases of 4 Terminators based on the wording "A Legion Terminator Detachment consists of 4 Legion Terminator models", but all of the pictures of models show 5 models per base.

Thanks Ohman for pointing out what the meaning of the stacks on the silhouette images meant. You have found logic where I could find none.

Why is it so hard to understand what a detachment is? Seems like that should be dead simple. I hope the rules clearly define the meanings of terms like detachment, unit, model, etc.. otherwise it's going to be tough.

Because GW have a bad habit of re-using terminology.

Detachment in 40k is the special rule you apply to your army. Detachment in Epic is a mini FOC, but don't confuse Formation Organization Chart (FOC) with Force Organization Chart (FOC) from older 40k.

And also leave it to Warcom not being able to post full rules and context. There will be one simple rule line in the book that will make it easy to understand, but until we see it we have to go off of whatever warcom posts.

I find more and more that despite how much they try to hype rules and such, I end up throwing my hands up in frustration and going "Alright, just gunna wait for the full release to make sense of this instead of arguing ad nauseum about how to read the ouija board of warcom articles."

hams wrote:

hams wrote:

I am looking at trying to understand creating a list based on the WarCom "Demi Company" preview and the launch box. From the pastbin leak, it has a "Detachment Size" column that I assume is the number of stands in a detachment. Astartes looks to have typically 4 stands for each infantry attachment. The launch box appears to only have 2 stands of plasma support and 2 stands of missile launcher support. This doesn't appear to be a legal set of stands for a formation, especially based on this Demi Company which requires 1 support detachment. Or "Detachment Size" is something else and the detachments are actually 2 stands each?

Hoping someone more familiar with SM2 might be able to comment on how this works.

Responding to my own post probably breaks some rule, but here goes anyway.

I looked at the previewed Legion Terminator Detachment card. It says "A Legion Terminator Detachment consists of 4 Legion Terminator models".

In the launch box, we have 10 Terminators, which pictured are put 5 models on a base with 2 bases. Nowhere here do I find the number 4. I know that Formations contain Detachments, but that's it... GW seems to freely use terms like model(s) and unit(s) which is totally unclear what that means in the LI context.

Furthermore, on the list building side of the card, the image shows 20 terminator silhouettes... So.. do we have 4 bases of 5 terminators, or 5 bases of 4 terminators. I would assume 5 bases of 4 Terminators based on the wording "A Legion Terminator Detachment consists of 4 Legion Terminator models", but all of the pictures of models show 5 models per base.

Thanks Ohman for pointing out what the meaning of the stacks on the silhouette images meant. You have found logic where I could find none.

Why is it so hard to understand what a detachment is? Seems like that should be dead simple. I hope the rules clearly define the meanings of terms like detachment, unit, model, etc.. otherwise it's going to be tough.

If the cards are any indication on how much thought they put into the rules, we are in for a mess.

As for the limit of two stands of Terminators in the box, I'm going to guess you can somehow add them to a tactical detachment? Doesn't sound right.....I don't know, the box contents are making less sense now. You only get two stands of each of the non tactical stands, so not enough for their own detachments.

Launch boxes not having valid matched play composition isn't novel in gw games though.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
[
As for the limit of two stands of Terminators in the box, I'm going to guess you can somehow add them to a tactical detachment?.....I don't know, the box contents are making less sense now. You only get two stands of each of the non tactical stands, so not enough for their own detachments.

According to the leaked docs floating around, you can indeed add them to tactical detachments.

Definitely looking like most people will want to buy two boxes. Sucks if you don't want the solar auxilia though.

drbored wrote:
Because GW have a bad habit of re-using terminology.

Detachment in 40k is the special rule you apply to your army. Detachment in Epic is a mini FOC, but don't confuse Formation Organization Chart (FOC) with Force Organization Chart (FOC) from older 40k.

And also leave it to Warcom not being able to post full rules and context. There will be one simple rule line in the book that will make it easy to understand, but until we see it we have to go off of whatever warcom posts.

I find more and more that despite how much they try to hype rules and such, I end up throwing my hands up in frustration and going "Alright, just gunna wait for the full release to make sense of this instead of arguing ad nauseum about how to read the ouija board of warcom articles."

This. WarCom is never a reliable interpretation of any game rules even at the best of days. In today's example, I would be pretty surprised if they didn't already botch the numbers on terminators and Thunderhawks (I will fully expect Bulky to mean these models take two spaces in transports and thus Thunderhawks and eventually Land Raiders will only carry half as much chunky boys as they would tacticals).

The second edition Stormblade (misidentified as a Shadowsword in the recent Warcom article) had at least 3 weapon systems: the plasma blastgun, hunter killer missile rack and one-shot Hellion (?) missile on top. I don't recall if the left sponson with a (heavy) bolter on got stats or not. I loved them, and had to have the box set of three because I had a full company of every other IG tank type. Vs my mate's Orky armoured columns or the massed Eldar Tempests and Warp Hunters: EPIC!!!

Point is, multiple weapon systems on a tank aren't without precedent in Epic. Rolling to hit was easy and there are fewer steps than shooting in 40k, where a Tactical squad can readily have 4 different types of shooting after all.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Wondering if Point Defence will be guns you shoot during combats.

Point Defence is probably guns that can shoot on overwatch even if your not on first fire orders

So a Legion Terminator model / unit is one base / stand with five miniatures on it.

A Legion Terminator Detachment has 4, 6, or 8 Legion Terminator models.

The Legion Terminator Detachment takes up a Vanguard Battlefield Role (complete guess).

And a Vanguard Battlefield Role is one of the optional choices in a Legion Demi-Company Formation.

And there needs to be at least one Formation for each full 1,500 points in an Army.

Have I got that right?