Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And the weird bit is they're not always like this. HH has the second non-armybook expansion coming out now but I've never felt like the rulebook + one army book wasn't providing me the full game. Expansions actually are expansions with fringe additional options and not core content that was cut to nickel and dime me.

 Albertorius wrote:


The last edition I bought of Epic managed to have the full rules and the full lists for all the armies it included (which was more than two, let me tell ya).

Its been a life time ago, but I think 2nd edition had it all in the one rules booklet. Might be wrong though.

GW needs people to be up for buying pre-release DLC so that they can afford all the Brasso needed to polish their enormous brass balls.

Expansion announced before the first book has been published, for something as basic as a land speeder? L O L/slow clap

I love how there are a bunch of people here coming back to GW are exclaiming "what on earth is this?!" Meanwhile the guys that came back with Necromunda, horribly scarred, their backs bowed from carrying 9 hardbacks to play a game, respond gruffly as they emerge from a trapdoor "this is how we exist now" : D

SamusDrake wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:


The last edition I bought of Epic managed to have the full rules and the full lists for all the armies it included (which was more than two, let me tell ya).

Its been a life time ago, but I think 2nd edition had it all in the one rules booklet. Might be wrong though.

?

2nd edition had the race-specific boxed supplements, with new rules and detachment cards for that race / organization.

Epic 40k was just the armies book in the box, no? It's been a long time

Epic SM/Titan Legions had expansions for the major factions following the release, but I guess the point was there that they were not taking the piss.

 Pacific wrote:
Expansion announced before the first book has been published, for something as basic as a land speeder? L O L/slow clap

I love how there are a bunch of people here coming back to GW are exclaiming "what on earth is this?!" Meanwhile the guys that came back with Necromunda, horribly scarred, their backs bowed from carrying 9 hardbacks to play a game, respond gruffly as they emerge from a trapdoor "this is how we exist now" : D

Necromunda old-timer to Epic gamer coming back:

Eumerin wrote:


?

2nd edition had the race-specific boxed supplements, with new rules and detachment cards for that race / organization.

Just found the contents page, but its just Marines, Orks and Eldar. Not sure it was everything, though.

 Pacific wrote:
Expansion announced before the first book has been published, for something as basic as a land speeder? L O L/slow clap

a least now we know that the delay of the core set has no influence on all the other upcoming releases for LI

SamusDrake wrote:

Just found the contents page, but its just Marines, Orks and Eldar. Not sure it was everything, though.

It wasn't. All former editions had expansions, nothing was "everything in a single book".

Difference is that there was a significantly longer amount of time between them being announced at the time. There was no Warhammer Community too.

Basically, the fact that nowadays information / previews / whatever you call it go way faster than before (it was more a question of years rather than weeks) make it feel like GW treat their games differently. They don't. Even Mordheim didn't have everything in its rulebook (remember Town Cryers ? They weren't free - either you bought the White Dwarf containing them, either the Town Cryer magazines themselves later- and they were akind to expansions as well).

But nowadays, when you play these old editions, you go on sites / communities that took their time compiling everything in one place "for free", that makes it look like it was all out day one at release when it was sold and supported by GW. I call it "nostalgia bias".

Here, with LI, it's about units more than new armies (given the background, it's not really surprising since it's basically the same factions with different color schemes that can be taken in one big blob army). But even at the time of old Epic editions, there were sometimes new units added afterwards simply because...well, they weren't made at the time of the box release, simply put.

Is it good / bad ? Personnal taste. I do obviously prefer to have a book with everything inside to build my armies, but well...it's Horus Heresy. I could see it as a conflict's evolution justification : expansion is about the war evolving with time, and thus having new technologies / units coming later. Or something like that. Either way, it's not a question of "DLC" or nonsense like this. GW sell miniatures, and they sell rules to play them. They always acted like this before. A DLC is a downloadable content for video games, that you can't do anything with itself. With GW, at least you have the miniatures and the books don't just have rules in them, they also have other stuff like background you can enjoy by itself alone. They have nothing in common.

There is a big difference between day-one DLC and a genuine expansion which has grown organically as the game itself has been developed, and needs a further rules release further down the line.

I don't know why there is the need to have to point that out..

because this was planned as a genuine expansion but a stupid mistake delayed the release

 Pacific wrote:
There is a big difference between day-one DLC and a genuine expansion which has grown organically as the game itself has been developed, and needs a further rules release further down the line.

I don't know why there is the need to have to point that out..

The need comes when someone talks about "day-one DLC" when it's not and has nothing in common at all with the way video games are handled.

Especially about a game that isn't even released yet so far because of delays.

2nd Ed had multiple expansions.

1. Armies of the Imperium

2. Ork and Squat Walords

3. Eldar and Chaos Renegades

4. Tyranid Hive War

5. Titan Legions

6. Epic Battles Compendium

7. Heaven knows how many units added via White Dwarf.

This is…completely normal.

 kodos wrote:
because this was planned as a genuine expansion but a stupid mistake delayed the release

It was planned as an expansion that sells you something as basic as a drop pod or land speeder rules. There's nothing "genuine" about it. It's not additional content, it's core content removed from the core product to obfuscate the fact they're charging you hundreds of dollars just to collect all the bits of your rulebook, which is exactly the same thing video game companies do. In contrast with the additional Mordheim content that was mentioned above as a clear bad faith argument, that was published as it was developed (much of it was fan made, too) and was adding things onto an already complete game.

well, in that case of Legion Imperialis, it is not core content

it might have been in other games, but this is a new one with new core content and new expansions

or people still think that this is just Epic in everything but the name?

 kodos wrote:
well, in that case of Legion Imperialis, it is not core content

it might have been in other games, but this is a new one with new core content and new expansions

or people still think that this is just Epic in everything but the name?

Explain to me how Drop Pods and Land Speeders are not core content for Space Marines, and if they are not, why were the rules and models developed concurrently with the core content?

Come on, this is obviously a case of leaving stuff out to sell as DLC later. It's not something anyone should be defending.

Vorian wrote:
Epic 40k was just the armies book in the box, no? It's been a long time

Epic 40k had three books in the box: the rulebook, the hobby/scenarios book and the armies book, with: Imperium (IG, Marines, Titans, et al), Orks, Chaos, Eldars and Tyranids.

I neither know the rules or the army lists, so I cannot tell you if drop pods are core content for Legion Imperialis Space Marines
and based on the release we have seen, they are not part of it but an expansion

and I am pretty sure that if LI would have released as planned, everyone would be hyped about the first expansion and the new models because how fun the game is and that the new content makes it even more fun

but now, no one has to defend to himself the money they wasted it happens to be that GW makes bad games and split the rules in ways to make the maximum profit on minimum investment

count me surprised as as this is their main sales strategy for years now but no one expected it with LI, because this time they are different and not going to milk the people as much as they can in the first 3 months

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 kodos wrote:
because this was planned as a genuine expansion but a stupid mistake delayed the release

It was planned as an expansion that sells you something as basic as a drop pod or land speeder rules. There's nothing "genuine" about it. It's not additional content, it's core content removed from the core product to obfuscate the fact they're charging you hundreds of dollars just to collect all the bits of your rulebook, which is exactly the same thing video game companies do. In contrast with the additional Mordheim content that was mentioned above as a clear bad faith argument, that was published as it was developed (much of it was fan made, too) and was adding things onto an already complete game.

Considering that we have barely half a sentence worth of information about this supplement, isn't it a pretty big assumption that this book is the only place to get official rules for land speeders or drop pods?

In recent years we've seen rules for AT units included in the box with the model, and 40k/AOS unit datasheets available as free digital versions alongside printed supplements.

 Pacific wrote:
There is a big difference between day-one DLC and a genuine expansion which has grown organically as the game itself has been developed, and needs a further rules release further down the line.

I don't know why there is the need to have to point that out..

"Genuine expansions" as you have defined them are few and far between. The vast majority of expansions (95%+) for games, both digital and physical, are planned while the core game is in development, before it ever releases because it exceeds the scope of the minimum viable product defined by the lead designer/developer or the page count limitations imposed by publishing, or the time available for product development, etc. The idea that expansion are something that come about organically whole cloth after a game has been developed and launched is pure fiction in the vast majority of cases.

The "cut content" argument that others have mentioned is a cynical one, its not entirely inaccurate, but it is a bit misleading, as the majority of expansions for any game (again, physical or digital) are things that were in actuality thought of and perhaps even had development initiated during core development and cut for time, budget, space, resource, etc. reasons.

Announcing that there will be supplements that contains rules for what is pretty much 'core' content for the main army for this game at least gives those of us that were tempted to try the new rules, but dislike the way they piecemealed out the new necromunda, fair notice to pick up the cheap core box set for the nice minis and drop the rulebooks straight into the bin.

I've no problem with new campaign books, or expanding games as they develop organically. But leaving out key items for the main army that they knew damn well that they would have models coming out for, originally planned for mere weeks after the main release, just stinks.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
There is a big difference between day-one DLC and a genuine expansion which has grown organically as the game itself has been developed, and needs a further rules release further down the line.

I don't know why there is the need to have to point that out..

"Genuine expansions" as you have defined them are few and far between. The vast majority of expansions (95%+) for games, both digital and physical, are planned while the core game is in development, before it ever releases because it exceeds the scope of the minimum viable product defined by the lead designer/developer or the page count limitations imposed by publishing, or the time available for product development, etc. The idea that expansion are something that come about organically whole cloth after a game has been developed and launched is pure fiction in the vast majority of cases.

The "cut content" argument that others have mentioned is a cynical one, its not entirely inaccurate, but it is a bit misleading, as the majority of expansions for any game (again, physical or digital) are things that were in actuality thought of and perhaps even had development initiated during core development and cut for time, budget, space, resource, etc. reasons.

I mean... they certainly seem cut content, given that the apparently couldn't even publish a single LI battle report with those rules...

Plus, I for one I'd say that Drop Pods is one of the probably more signature "things" that Space Marines do in 40k, and jetbikes seem like a less important unit but still very iconic of a number of the legions.

Additionally? The core fething book has just two fething army lists. And they're not even full? Yeah, feth off.

 vadersson wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:

On the other hand that line about the next book seems to have been deleted from the article because I can't find it anymore so seems likely its going to be the Thursday article and they unintentionally leaked it already

The blurb about the Great Slaughter is actually in the text box in he article in the magazine, not the preview article. So no change at least.

I do wish GW would not try and be EA. I prefer all the rules to not be spread over 50 zillion books. But unfortunately that is kind of the GW way. Maybe the box sets will come with rule cards or something.

After chapterhouse that would require releasing every model at once.

no, they would just need to preview the models

tneva82 wrote:

 vadersson wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:

On the other hand that line about the next book seems to have been deleted from the article because I can't find it anymore so seems likely its going to be the Thursday article and they unintentionally leaked it already

The blurb about the Great Slaughter is actually in the text box in he article in the magazine, not the preview article. So no change at least.

I do wish GW would not try and be EA. I prefer all the rules to not be spread over 50 zillion books. But unfortunately that is kind of the GW way. Maybe the box sets will come with rule cards or something.

After chapterhouse that would require releasing every model at once.

Nonsense. AoS release armies in this way all the time now. Cities of Sigmar army book & launch box was released end of August. Some existing warcry models were re-released to be used in the army as a pre-order just this last Saturday. The rest of the range (which has rules and pictures in the August released book) are no where to be seen yet.

The original release date of the legions core release was only a few weeks ago, and way too close for them to be showing drop pods in articles now for the models to have been to nowhere close to being finished at the point they decide to not put them in the core book.

difference is that there are pictures of models in the book

the chapterhouse case just said that having an artwork in the book does not give you copyright to any model made from that artwork

and not that GW must release models and rules at the same time

 Albertorius wrote:
Additionally? The core fething book has just two fething army lists. And they're not even full? Yeah, feth off.

Technically just one. It's a civil war, both sides have more or less the same ressources at their disposal. There are "allied" factions within, but since everything can be taken in the same army, I'd tend to consider it as a whole.

Well I guess if you count the guard and the titans / knights, you could see them as 3. Main is of course the Space Marines.

Same for Adeptus Titanicus. In the end, it's a game with just one faction including all the titans and knights. I didn't hear their players say "feth off" when it was first released. That's simply how the game is designed.

Thing is, that "there's not everything in the rulebook" is a fallacy of the mind. It's just the knowledge we have that there are further miniatures whose rules will be in an expansion that creates it. When Epic 2nd edition launched, all of these expansion armies weren't announced at all. Did players say "feth off" because not all these armies / extra units weren't in the starter box at release ? No. Mostly because they didn't know there would be that many.

But in the end, having an expansion with rules for drops pods / motojets doesn't invalidate the "core" game at all. It's just...an expansion. In a wargame like LI, you don't have to take everything to make a game / army, that's the thing.

After all, people who didn't want to play drop pods or motojets in their army will just shrug and say "don't care".

Real thing that feth it up is that information / previews come way too fast and in too big numbers. It's just ridiculous, people can't even project themselves with simply the "core set" and build their army gradually. No, now everyone must have everything at once (how will they build / paint everything at the same speed is still a mystery to behold).