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Please see my earlier post about how this is nothing new, especially for Epic Scale.

I do get why folks don’t like it. But it does remain par for the course.

As I said when Necromunda got its redo? I genuinely don’t mind unit rules being tucked/locked away in different books if those books contain other, worthwhile content.

And I’m still not going to offer my opinion on what was or wasn’t to my taste in that regard, lest The Sad Git Brigade try to claim my thoughts as some kind of declared benchmark, and pick a fight because they’ve sod all better to do in their lives.

Would I prefer it all be in a single volume? Yes.

Am I surprised it’s not? Not especially.

Will I begrudge having to but multiple books? That depends on the overall content, and indeed entirely remains to be seen.

But I do understand any game put out needs to make its own money, or sink without trace. And that’s not unique to GW. This is GW’s approach to solve a few quandaries at the same time. And it always has been. So please, at least stop acting like it’s a surprise, yeah?

Think we have done this tangent to death now, can we please move on before things start getting heated.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Scroll back to one of my previous comments where I explain that things are often cut in development and moved to expansions as a result of page count limitations or it not fitting within the context of a minimum viable product, etc. In this case, it would seem that the launch set comes with a single rulebook which contains all the core rules + basic army lists for the Astartes and Solar Auxilia. Its not unreasonable to assume that they opted to go with a 2-faction launch over having just astartes in the box with a more comprehensive and better developed army list, and chose to move the cut content to a separate book as an expansion. I'm sure there was also a good amount of page count chewed up by the need to include the necessary rules for all the stuff that already exists via Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronatuica Imperialis, which is the type of content that would usually feature in an expansion rather than in a core game. Before you go on about how they could just make the book bigger, let me pre-empt you to say that they are releasing a product, not a ruleset. Page count goes hand-in-hand with the price point of the box set and the size of the box it comes in. GW knows the audiene for the product and how much money they can reasonably extort out of them for said product, that becomes the primary constraint in the design of the product and what you get in it.

Splitting the Marine list up is something they never should have done. Waffling on about page count and minimum viable products doesn't change that.

If you buy a Codex, you should get your whole army. You shouldn't have core units split out into supplements.

chaos0xomega wrote:
As for "not existing yet" - we know from various insider statements that the design studio works years ahead of the production and release schedule and that when they are working on an update for any given faction or game many things are concepted and developed to some extent before being cut and shelved to be picked back up again in the future. Some of the Primaris marines we are getting now are things that they likely started working on ~3 editions ago. IE - They existed, you just didn't know it, but GW knew it and they had a choice to make as to whether or not they would include rules for them or not.

This is doubling down on a terrible argument.

"Primaris marines weren't in my 4th through 7th edition Space Marine codecies, ergo GW did not release the rules for everything at once."

That's what you said. This has nothing to do with production schedules or when they started working on something.

Primaris Marines simply weren't part of 40k prior to their reveal in 8th. They did not exist. Bikes, Speeders and Drop Pods, on the other hand, are intrinsic parts of the Marines, and leaving them out of the core Marine list for an expansion is bad.

Your attempt at a comparison with Primaris Marines is laughable.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Acting like you are owed rules for something because it exists in another game at another scale is childish.

But they do exist. We've seen them. They've previewed them.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Your perspective on this is also pretty off - they are giving you rules for flyers, titans, knights, space marines, and solar auxilia on launch, which is actually quite a bit.

"Giving". Like they're doing us a favour.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Would you still be reacting this way if they had only given you rules for astartes in the book, and then sold you the rest as expansions?

I'd expect them to have the Marine list as the complete Marine list. What about that don't you get?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm inclined to think no - I don't see you complaining about the absence of mechanicum or custodes rules...

What... what are you blithering about? This is about them splitting the Marine list between different books. That's the issue: turning core Marine units into Day1 DLC. Like putting Tactical Squads and Captains in the Codex, but putting Devastator Squads and Chaplains in a supplement.

chaos0xomega wrote:
for example, even though the mechanicum and custodes army list is something that "exists" in 28mm scale and which we all know will no doubt be released for LI in future expansions.

None of this has anything to do with things existing in 28mm. There are no Custodes/Mechanicum Epic 30k minis yet. When they eventually come out, I'd expect their respective lists to be complete and not split over multiple books.

chaos0xomega wrote:
In fact, the whole damned thing is silly and just forced controversy and outrage.

No it's not. Expecting Marines to have the rules for their units in one location isn't an unreasonable expectation.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Given the Epic community's large variety of 3rd party and printable files for various units, it seems like GW is holding back rules until plastic kits are ready to release in the hopes that people will get the new rules and the new kits when they release instead of getting all the rules up front, printer goes brr, and not bother to buy the kits when they come out.

This is the main reason. The aim here isn't specifically to sell supplement books, if that was true then there wouldn't be any free digital downloads for games like KT, or no unit rules included in boxes for AT & Aeronautica kits.

With very few exceptions, GW's entire marketing approach since the Chapterhouse drama is to only reveal details if they have products ready to sell. Their goal here is to obfuscate the release schedule until a time that GW are ready to start unveiling each new Epic kit. If units such as Land Raiders or Stormbirds aren't due until say Summer 2024, there's very little incentive for GW to publish those rules now and encourage players to spend 9 months arranging their own proxies. The same applies to drop pods, which may have originally been intended to land(!) 3-6 months after the main game launch in August.

The big question is if the supplement books will be the only way to get these unit rules. We don't have any confirmation on that yet, and given recent GW actions it's literally a coin flip.

HBMC, my guy, you are not owed a complete list in a single place. You are not "buying a codex", you're buying a core rulebook for a game, there is no expectation for it to contain a full army list, the fact that it contains any army list at all is a small miracle, most of the time you have to buy a second book to get those.

Like all specialist games to date, this will be a game largely driven by narrative supplements, same as Horus Heresy, same as Adeptus Titanicus, same as Necromunda, same as Aeronautica Imperialis, etc. None of them give you your full army list in one place either, at least not up front. You should have know what to expect, if you didn't that's on you.

I don't need to see drop pods, jetbikes, landspeeders or whatever to know they exist and will eventually be added to the game (and hell drop pods were only added to 40k proper in 5th edition despite them existing in lore for decades prior so calling them "intrinsic" parts of the marine army list is a real laugh riot, gw really screwed us over those first 25 years or so by giving us incomplete codexes I guess, huh?). The fact that these things may exist at some point in the future does not mean that they are owed to me now. The fact that they are shown to exist this close to release likewise does not mean that they are owed to me now i can tell you that there are minis and rules for things that wont release for another year sitting on someones desk in nottingham *right now*, and guess what? Youre not owed them either. It was clear from the get go that gw was only giving us a fraction of the possible units that exist on release, hell it's also clear that GW is open to creating whole new units we've never seen or heard of before (Heavy sentinel, anyone?) and adding them to the game. That was never going to happen all at once and every sensible reasonable person understood that from the word go and knew that they would be getting a slow drip of rules for years to come, as is the case with literally every other specialist game. There was always going to be supplements and expansions for this game, you knew it as well as I do, and you have no credibility with the sad git brigade routine here acting like you've been personally slighted by some evil charlatan peddling snake oil.

The rules for all armies are going to be released as they release models for them. That's how it's been for years consistently across every other GW product line, and that's how it will continue to be for the forseeable future - it is an unreasonable expectation to expect something different in this one specific circumstance. This is a specialist game. It does not get a new edition every 3 years for them to reissue you a new army list with a handful of new units in it each time. They will still be continuing to expand that army list with new releases 3 years from now, probably 5 years from now, maybe even 10 years from now. Get used to it, it's not going to change. We all know no models, no rules is a thing, and that's the case here as it is with every other GW game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Given the Epic community's large variety of 3rd party and printable files for various units, it seems like GW is holding back rules until plastic kits are ready to release in the hopes that people will get the new rules and the new kits when they release instead of getting all the rules up front, printer goes brr, and not bother to buy the kits when they come out.

This is the main reason. The aim here isn't specifically to sell supplement books, if that was true then there wouldn't be any free digital downloads for games like KT, or no unit rules included in boxes for AT & Aeronautica kits.

With very few exceptions, GW's entire marketing approach since the Chapterhouse drama is to only reveal details if they have products ready to sell. Their goal here is to obfuscate the release schedule until a time that GW are ready to start unveiling each new Epic kit. If units such as Land Raiders or Stormbirds aren't due until say Summer 2024, there's very little incentive for GW to publish those rules now and encourage players to spend 9 months arranging their own proxies. The same applies to drop pods, which may have originally been intended to land(!) 3-6 months after the main game launch in August.

The big question is if the supplement books will be the only way to get these unit rules. We don't have any confirmation on that yet, and given recent GW actions it's literally a coin flip.

The trend with every other specialist game is to release a compilation book with a sort of rules update/errata every couple of years. Not a formal new edition per se, more like an incremental update.

You keep using the word "owe". In fact, you're the only person using it. Stop attempting to counter arguments no one has made.

Anyway, after I made my post I saw ingtaer had made his, so I'll leave it.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
My dude, when Dudeface thinks a grievance against GW is valid, it's time to stop defending them

it is not about defending GW, but why are the people grumbling with GW doing the same as always
nothing changed, everything the same, yet people are angry because they did not expect GW being GW

or maybe just because now they know they need to spend a lot more than "teased" to play the full game, while weeks ago the arguments was that "technically" all those things are optional with GW games and should not be accounted for the cost to start

people don't like what GW is doing, welcome to the club
but don't act like this is something new

Hey guys,

While I haven't read the entirety of this thread, when will Eldar and possibly Tau get released for Legions Imperialis you think?

Given that the game is just about to release in the coming months, would it be safe to think we might get Eldar (or additional races) by next summer?

Never
this is HorusHeresy 8mm, not Epic 40k there won't be any Xenos

Never before has this thread needed some N&R so much

Thursday so maybe something today, is it usually the day new items come through the Warhammer community page?

LordBlunt wrote:
Hey guys,

While I haven't read the entirety of this thread, when will Eldar and possibly Tau get released for Legions Imperialis you think?

Given that the game is just about to release in the coming months, would it be safe to think we might get Eldar (or additional races) by next summer?

Check out one of the existing rulesets. My personal favourite is 2nd edition/NetEpic as the rules for Eldar are quite a lot of fun; some of the Eldar tank weapons in particular and Eldar Titans, which have the most annoying (for your opponent) shield rules in the game

I have perversely (as LI is about to arrive) just started on an Eldar Epic army, these are Guardians from Vanguard miniatures (from their Eloi range) and some classic grav tanks, which are ten a penny on eBay

 Pacific wrote:

Thursday so maybe something today, is it usually the day new items come through the Warhammer community page?

Yes Thursdays are Heresy Thursdays with reveals for either Legions Imperialis or Horus Heresy but last week they already said today would be LI.
But its likely to be just the teased expansion book instead of a new model reveal

 Matrindur wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

Thursday so maybe something today, is it usually the day new items come through the Warhammer community page?

Yes Thursdays are Heresy Thursdays with reveals for either Legions Imperialis or Horus Heresy but last week they already said today would be LI.
But its likely to be just the teased expansion book instead of a new model reveal

Last week's article said:

Join us again next week for another Heresy Thursday, which the Warhammer Community reconnaissance squad tells us is more miniatures for the hotly awaited Legions Imperialis.

So we should definitely see another model at least, although they could reveal the expansion book too.

I'm hoping it's something more mundane like plastic Arvus or Shadowswords, to help fill a few gaps in the Solar range.

 kodos wrote:
it is not about defending GW, but why are the people grumbling with GW doing the same as always
nothing changed, everything the same, yet people are angry because they did not expect GW being GW

GW sales models vary wildly game to game. They're not trying to sell you half a faction in Underworlds, BB, Warcy, Kill Team, HH... so let us just have our regret over Legions apparently going in the worst DLC treadmill tier along with Necromunda.

Initial release is Guard and Marines with titan legions support.
They have hinted there are some more factions that will be released. These could be different varietys of guard and marines, they could be custodes, mechanicus and daemons.
I also see an argument for Orks and Aeldari in the long term, particularly the latter as they took part in the Heresy a bit. It would make sense to me as I imagine the other 40K factions are not going to be big sellers in epic scale, whereas Orks and Aeldari have always been the classic other epic armies.
And Votaan could be a thing...

I am imagining an Ork faction with the granularity we have seen thus far for LI: an Ork battlewagon with a unit profile stretching to 3 pages with different weapon options, all named things like 'big gun' 'very big gun' 'very big shooty gun with extra dakka' and they all have different special rules

And everyone just goes back to playing the NetEpic Ork rules, which are probably one of the most fun to play faction-specific rules that GW has ever written!

LordBlunt wrote:
Hey guys,

While I haven't read the entirety of this thread, when will Eldar and possibly Tau get released for Legions Imperialis you think?

Given that the game is just about to release in the coming months, would it be safe to think we might get Eldar (or additional races) by next summer?

Not for Legions Imperialis as it's set in the 30K era and not even released yet, but Titanicus is looking very stale these days with it's limited(shared) Imperial range. While there are still 30K era options left to explore, they're not enough to keep the game going in the long term and especially with Legions offering the same units.

And there is also the possibility of Aeronautica returning for a new edition. Even more so than Titanicus, Aeronautica had quickly exhausted it's 30K options. While Epic 40K is not likely to happen for a while yet, Aeronautica is still a good option for GW in the meantime. There is a player base out there between both previous editions, with many models still going to be available in the Legions range. If they look back to the original edition, and remove those bloody hexmaps, there's no reason 40K Aeronautica can't keep us entertained in the meantime...

Xenos are possible, but don't hold your breath

I expect western civilization to fall before we get xenos in Legions. We didn't even get chaos bits in 5 years of Titanicus.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I expect western civilization to fall before we get xenos in Legions. We didn't even get chaos bits in 5 years of Titanicus.

The way things are going, I don't think that is as long as you think it is.

MarkNorfolk wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I expect western civilization to fall before we get xenos in Legions. We didn't even get chaos bits in 5 years of Titanicus.

The way things are going, I don't think that is as long as you think it is.

a week Tuesday, heck could even be before the game is released

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I expect western civilization to fall before we get xenos in Legions. We didn't even get chaos bits in 5 years of Titanicus.

Slightly off topic, and not aimed directly at you, certainly more of a general question: When DID traitor legions start getting all chaos-y though?

I'm working through the HH books but so far it all seems to have been a few weeks/months since Horus and co went off script and did the Istvaan operations. We've seen the Emperor's Children Noise marines get a dose of the Warp (with help of Bile), and Fulgrim and Angron are now Daemon princes but nothing suggests their legions are outwardly Chaos in the traditional sense.

 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I expect western civilization to fall before we get xenos in Legions. We didn't even get chaos bits in 5 years of Titanicus.

Slightly off topic, and not aimed directly at you, certainly more of a general question: When DID traitor legions start getting all chaos-y though?

I'm working through the HH books but so far it all seems to have been a few weeks/months since Horus and co went off script and did the Istvaan operations. We've seen the Emperor's Children Noise marines get a dose of the Warp (with help of Bile), and Fulgrim and Angron are now Daemon princes but nothing suggests their legions are outwardly Chaos in the traditional sense.

By Terra many of the legions are pretty mutated.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/12/heresy-thursday-deliver-and-destroy-with-a-new-legions-imperialis-tank/

Join us next Thursday for another Heresy Thursday, which will reveal more for Legions Imperialis.

chaos0xomega wrote:
HBMC, my guy, you are not owed a complete list in a single place. You are not "buying a codex", you're buying a core rulebook for a game, there is no expectation for it to contain a full army list, the fact that it contains any army list at all is a small miracle, most of the time you have to buy a second book to get those.

Like all specialist games to date, this will be a game largely driven by narrative supplements, same as Horus Heresy, same as Adeptus Titanicus, same as Necromunda, same as Aeronautica Imperialis, etc. None of them give you your full army list in one place either, at least not up front. You should have know what to expect, if you didn't that's on you.

I don't need to see drop pods, jetbikes, landspeeders or whatever to know they exist and will eventually be added to the game (and hell drop pods were only added to 40k proper in 5th edition despite them existing in lore for decades prior so calling them "intrinsic" parts of the marine army list is a real laugh riot, gw really screwed us over those first 25 years or so by giving us incomplete codexes I guess, huh?).

Funny thing about "need". I don't "need" LI either. What I need is vote with my moneys

I already suffered Newcromunda, and I don't want that. So if LI is going to be like that, wel... the internet will provide enough for me, I'm sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlunt wrote:
Hey guys,

While I haven't read the entirety of this thread, when will Eldar and possibly Tau get released for Legions Imperialis you think?

Given that the game is just about to release in the coming months, would it be safe to think we might get Eldar (or additional races) by next summer?

According to GW, never.

Lovely sculpts, but again, 4 to a box is rookie numbers.

 Albertorius wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
HBMC, my guy, you are not owed a complete list in a single place. You are not "buying a codex", you're buying a core rulebook for a game, there is no expectation for it to contain a full army list, the fact that it contains any army list at all is a small miracle, most of the time you have to buy a second book to get those.

Like all specialist games to date, this will be a game largely driven by narrative supplements, same as Horus Heresy, same as Adeptus Titanicus, same as Necromunda, same as Aeronautica Imperialis, etc. None of them give you your full army list in one place either, at least not up front. You should have know what to expect, if you didn't that's on you.

I don't need to see drop pods, jetbikes, landspeeders or whatever to know they exist and will eventually be added to the game (and hell drop pods were only added to 40k proper in 5th edition despite them existing in lore for decades prior so calling them "intrinsic" parts of the marine army list is a real laugh riot, gw really screwed us over those first 25 years or so by giving us incomplete codexes I guess, huh?).

Funny thing about "need". I don't "need" LI either. What I need is vote with my moneys

I already suffered Newcromunda, and I don't want that. So if LI is going to be like that, wel... the internet will provide enough for me, I'm sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlunt wrote:
Hey guys,

While I haven't read the entirety of this thread, when will Eldar and possibly Tau get released for Legions Imperialis you think?

Given that the game is just about to release in the coming months, would it be safe to think we might get Eldar (or additional races) by next summer?

According to GW, never.

Gw denies even planning something until they announce it next day. Not most reliable sources for never if you believe their never then gw would never release anything.

tneva82 wrote:
Gw denies even planning something until they announce it next day. Not most reliable sources for never if you believe their never then gw would never release anything.

Well, what I believe is that they've said the same for all the games set in 30k, and so far, no xenos in sight for any of them, so...

AI was specifically not set in 30k and had xenos from the start.

Interesting, they sculpted the Laser Destroyers.

I really wish there was a bit more meat to these previews. No stat line, no points, nothing about transport cap, etc. sigh, just pretty pictures. I want rules people!

 vadersson wrote:
I really wish there was a bit more meat to these previews. No stat line, no points, nothing about transport cap, etc. sigh, just pretty pictures. I want rules people!

They are probably saving those up for when they need to build up hype and interest for the release again. Since they already released all those faction rules articles back with the original release they only have individual units left now