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Now just to see whether it will be a one or two week preorder

 Matrindur wrote:
Now just to see whether it will be a one or two week preorder

Everything seems to be two weeks pre-order now.

I don't see how this is helping with their supply/demand issues, and they are still making weekly pre-orders. Their pre-order system is the most useless thing in the world due to how they handle releases anyway.

I've seen calculations that just the Blood Angels army from that battle report would cost 900€ if bought piecemeal (not from the starter set), yikes

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I've seen calculations that just the Blood Angels army from that battle report would cost 900€ if bought piecemeal (not from the starter set), yikes

oof.

I really don't think they will be able to compete against 3d printing & other 6mm companies at that price point.

With the constant delays its gotten to close to the old worlds release. I think a good portion of the target audience will now have to choose between this or the old world.

I think I'll stick to the plan of buying up starter sets, as many tiles as I can get my hands on, and some of the plastic sets of the most iconic 40k vehicles. Then only buy more when they bring out some sort of battleforce/budget set next christmas.

I know what €900 of stuff from vanguard would look like and it would fill a table with more than one army.

 Mallo wrote:
Everything seems to be two weeks pre-order now.

I don't see how this is helping with their supply/demand issues, and they are still making weekly pre-orders. Their pre-order system is the most useless thing in the world due to how they handle releases anyway.

It provides more time to ship large orders to 3rd party retailers, which was something they were clearly having issues with. Several large UK stores recieved some of their Tyranid stock in split deliveries before and after the weekend they would normally ship.

If planned carefully weekly pre-orders still allow for peaks and troughs too; for example this week just has a couple of new Necromunda products. That won't produce anywhere close to the same volume of shipping as the previous HH boxed set, or upcoming Epic/AOS stuff.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I've seen calculations that just the Blood Angels army from that battle report would cost 900€ if bought piecemeal (not from the starter set), yikes

That's hardly a representative indication when it's based on buying multiple infantry boxes (assumed to be around €40) just to take two terminator stands from each, and effectively dumping most of the rest of the models. Drop pods are also a very poor points to cash ratio too.

However for likely the same price as a box of drop pods we'll also be able to get 300-400pts of super-heavy tanks, so the cost of an army really depends on what's in a specific list.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Mikhael says preorder Nov 4th

Mikhael is a charlatan, why are we still talking about him? He went by Admiral_SKK on reddit. Most of the rumors he originated were bogus, but it's not immediately obvious because he reposted rumors from other sources and mixed them with his own to make his made up wishlistibg sound more legit.

He claimed we would get plastic death riders in addition to rough riders in 2021, hasn't happened yet.

In 2021 he claimed TOW would have a rules compendium for all the legacy factions to be playable, it seems we ate only getting pdf lists for them (or at least some of them).

Claimed that HH would be expanded through "Warzone" supplements, starting with battles in the Sol System featuring Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, SoH, World Eaters, and Imperial Army - hasn't happened yet, seems unlikely

Claimed that HH would have "eras" (Early and Late Great Crusade, Earlyand Late Horus Heresy, and the Scouring) similar to MESBG having the Hobbit and the LotR - nope.

Claimed HH black books would still be valid from day one - nope

Claimed missing special characters for HH were coming in plastic- nope (and it seems for the most part characters will continue to be resin only).

Claimed plastic Daemon peimarchs were to be used with HH - nope, separate sculpts

Claimed 2 years ago that KT2.0 was getting a new Commander expansion - nope.

Claimed HH2.0 would follow 3 ways to play - nope

Claimed HH would have it's own munitorum field manual points books Ala 40k - nope

Claimed there would be a Horus Heresy compendium with rules for all 18 legions and 200+ unit datasheets - nope, in fact 2 books

He claimed the Age of Darkness boxset would be a limited launch box (nope) called the Battle of Heta-Gladius (nope) and would be followed by three starter sets Ala 40k/AoS (also nope)

Claimed that HH would handle units and formations the same way as 8th/9th - not clear what this means but also nope, basically follows the pre-8th force org system

Claimed the contemptor in Age of Darkness was the same from Calth - entirely wrong

Eventually Claimed there would be three rules compendium for HH - Loyalists, Traitors, and Armies of the Age of Darkness covering everyone else - basically wrong

Claimed there would be a Getting Started magazine set for HH - wrong

Claimed HH marines would come in boxes of 10 w similar weapon options to the CSM kit - wrong

Claimed we would get plastic upgrade sprues for each Legion- wrong

Claimed some vehicles like rhinos and predators would be sold in squadron boxes - wrong

But if you only skim through it it looks right, because he was taking other rumors or leaks from more reliable sources (ex - the leaked photos and contents of the Age of darkness box which we had for like a year prior to release) and pasting his own reasonable guesses and nonsense on top of that for attention.

Safe to assume that this may be BS as well then haha.

 RexHavoc wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I've seen calculations that just the Blood Angels army from that battle report would cost 900€ if bought piecemeal (not from the starter set), yikes

I know what €900 of stuff from vanguard would look like and it would fill a table with more than one army.

I think you could probably clear out Vanguard's entire stock for that much!

If an army is even half the cost of that, this game will be DoA.

I mean, a 2k army for 40k, AoS, or HH would set you back about the same so I'm not sure where that logic stands.

In fact, I've calculated the cost for my current lists for my main armies for those 3 systems and will include the bundles to reduce the overall price:

Deathwatch - £372.50 with Combat Patrol box and not including DW upgrades for each unit.

Seraphon - £313.50 with Combat Patrol which gives a spare Big Dino.

Iron Warriors - £468 with AoD box included.

£300 isn't an unusual price level. It's not 1991 anymore.

But they didn't say 300, they said 900?

I was more responding to the "Less than half" part but even so £900 seems a bit sus to me.

GW makes mistakes but a little under a grand to play basic games? I find that hard to believe.

Kinda feels like people want this to fail before it's even out of the gate.

 Gert wrote:
I was more responding to the "Less than half" part but even so £900 seems a bit sus to me.

GW makes mistakes but a little under a grand to play basic games? I find that hard to believe.

Kinda feels like people want this to fail before it's even out of the gate.

It was €900 rather than £900, but it's still a very skewed and non-typical example of a list.

To use a 40k analogy, I could go and spend almost £300 on Tyranid monsters and get myself over 1,600pts worth on the tabletop. Or I could spend the same amount of cash on Pyrovores (while leaving all the spore mines on sprues) to fill out just 270pts of my army. That's how cash-inefficient this showcase Blood Angel list is. For Epic realistic examples are going to trend closer to the former, especially once you start factoring in starter boxes and kits that we know are more points efficient like titans & super-heavy tanks.

We also still don't know for certain how Epic infantry will be sold. The assumption is a ~£30 box with two sprues, but it could just as easily be something else entirely, like a Combat Patrol equivalent or those double-size HHv2 core boxes of 20 marine bodies.

I posted earlier in the thread, I bought 12k points of NetEA pointed minis for less than $500.

That covered printing and shipping.

So €900/£900/$900 is a wild number no matter the currency.

the Blood Angel list shown in the WD uses 18,5 Boxes + Reaver which puts it at 790€, and as buying half boxes is not a thing it will be 810€ MSRP

that calculation comes from people who got review material and know what the box content will be

So if you want to make a head start, can you buy any of the Titans from Adeptus Titanicus atm and they will be compatible with LI?

I dont really understand how it works.

I would imagine Warlord, reaver and Warhounds will have rules in LI straight away. The other more esoteric stuff might be in an expansion.

 Gert wrote:
I was more responding to the "Less than half" part but even so £900 seems a bit sus to me.

GW makes mistakes but a little under a grand to play basic games? I find that hard to believe.

Kinda feels like people want this to fail before it's even out of the gate.

I think it's more pointing out why it might fail, rather than wanting it to - I love the epic scale and want as many people playing as possible. So, any dumbass moves (such as a v high buy-in price, let's say £500 to play the game as GW intend), rules which require encyclopedic memory and multiple rulebooks full of little page markers and notes, I'm against because it means less people will play the game. And it will be seen as a failure, because GW was able to release Epic in the past and make it a massive success; so really have no excuse in not being able to make LI a success as well.

I honestly can't imagine GW would release a game with that high a buy-in price, until we know for sure I'll assume this was just a battle report/marketing exercise to show off the full range of minis, rather than a baseline standard.

VAYASEN wrote:
So if you want to make a head start, can you buy any of the Titans from Adeptus Titanicus atm and they will be compatible with LI?

I dont really understand how it works.

At the moment we understand that 30% of your Space Marine or Solar Auxilia army can be made up of Titans or Knights, and their datasheets will be included in the core rule book. Rules for running Legio or House armies will probably turn up in an expansion, similar to Knight Houses in Doom of Molech for Titanicus.

SamusDrake wrote:

VAYASEN wrote:
So if you want to make a head start, can you buy any of the Titans from Adeptus Titanicus atm and they will be compatible with LI?

I dont really understand how it works.

At the moment we understand that 30% of your Space Marine or Solar Auxilia army can be made up of Titans or Knights, and their datasheets will be included in the core rule book. Rules for running Legio or House armies will probably turn up in an expansion, similar to Knight Houses in Doom of Molech for Titanicus.

More specifically, you can have a main army (there's two in the core, marines and auxilia) and up to 30% of the points of the army might be spent in allied detachments, of which titan legions is one of them. If you also want to field, say, knight banners or leman russ companies in your legion army, you'll have less points for a titan.

Wouldn't be surprised when the bring rules for Titan or Knight Armies in the November or December White Dwarf until they get proper Lists in an Expansion.

 kodos wrote:
the Blood Angel list shown in the WD uses 18,5 Boxes + Reaver which puts it at 790€, and as buying half boxes is not a thing it will be 810€ MSRP

that calculation comes from people who got review material and know what the box content will be

We know enough from the previews to identify how many boxes that Blood Angels army needs.
Without starter boxes it’s 21 boxes plus Reaver.
If we assume £30 / €40 / $50 usd for those boxes (I have no insider info on price or any other aspect) then that’s where the almost €900 figure comes from.

About half the models you get in those boxes aren’t used, and it’s a low price efficiency army.
Savings can be had from using the starter contents, and buying from FLGS.

I estimate you could get a workable army with about 12 boxes of stuff. With starter contents and a discount it’ll probably be about €450 (again, a guess on price).

Edit: That £30 box price comes from AI stuff being £28 before it sold out, plus an increase being snuck in. GW could always surprise us with a lower per box price. Maybe.

the entry price point is not different to the other GW games

2 times the core box to share, a 3rd core box to get some models for cheap and the rest for regular boxes
while the specific armies that don't use a lot of the core models will be much more expensive

and enough people play the game with 3D printed models to make it popular, being a popular game and enough people buy the GW models at the high price and over time the high price does not seem that much any more

not any different to Horus Heresy

 kodos wrote:
the entry price point is not different to the other GW games

And that's the problem, innit

While the battle report doesn't make the precise cost clear (it's possible they are a flat point cost to upgrade a detachment), it looks as though drop pods work out to around 5-6pts each.

Assuming a £30 cost for a box of four that's around 0.6pts per £1

For comparison we have these values towards the other end of the scale:
Thunderhawk (using AI price) = 5.4pts per £1
Baneblades (assuming £40 for four) = 9pts per £1
Reaver titans (using AT price) = 11pts per £1
LI Starter set (assuming £120) = ~ 14pts per £1

In terms of points efficiency, drop pods are barely more effective than buying cosmetic basing accessories for your army. That's the issue with the BA list.

Hey look, the usual people are talking about prices again - even though the game is still not released and they're all theorical because no one received a price list so far.

I already said these kinds of "calculations" are pointless because of that reason I just wrote above...unless you want LI to fail / glee in GW bashing, in case it just adds fuel to your self made justifications to hate GW no matter what. Wait, no, actually it doesn't because you just look like fools to make up theories like this out of thin air..

Calculate the value of the armies in the battle report once prices are officially out, then you'll be more believable. Until then, it's not even worth the online space you're wasting to put it here.

OK well hopefully something that people might find a bit useful, I have started a thread down in the Specialist Games section discussing the battle report and inferences about the game and rules that can be made from it, if anyone is interested!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/811924.page#11602235

Sarouan wrote:
Hey look, the usual people are talking about prices again - even though the game is still not released and they're all theorical because no one received a price list so far.

You can always just not read it

Or remember this is a discussion forum and people... discuss things.

 Albertorius wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
Hey look, the usual people are talking about prices again - even though the game is still not released and they're all theorical because no one received a price list so far.

You can always just not read it

Or remember this is a discussion forum and people... discuss things.

It is not discussion when someone puts a price out of their ass and make it appear like it's an actual thing that will happen. It's delusion at best, intentionnal misinformation at worst.

Hating GW is ok as long as you have factual basis to justify that hate (don't like prices / find it an army to be expensive ? Calculate on real prices of concerned products in store - if said products don't exist yet, there's no factual basis). If not, then it's just irrationnal hate. And you're to be blamed for that.

Cool story, bro

Thing is, people is "pricing stuff out of their ass" based on the amount of stuff GW has said it's going to be in the boxes (or assuming there's gonna be two sprues on the ones we don't know yet because the AI boxes had two) and the assumption that, hopefully, those boxes won't cost more than the AI ones. Which might be a stretch, GW being GW.

"your poverty pisses me off" is good argument for every discussion about GW games
stop discussing the games you are interested in until you are rich enough so that the high prices don't mean anything to you anymore

and right, we don't know the price yet, might as well be 55€ per Box instead of 40€

 Albertorius wrote:
Cool story, bro

Thing is, people is "pricing stuff out of their ass" based on the amount of stuff GW has said it's going to be in the boxes (or assuming there's gonna be two sprues on the ones we don't know yet because the AI boxes had two) and the assumption that, hopefully, those boxes won't cost more than the AI ones. Which might be a stretch, GW being GW.

And like I said, it's pointless to talk about the cost in € of an army showed in a White Dwarf battle report so long the game isn't officially released and we don't have at least retailer information on price list for when it hits pre-order.

Because it has no value, it's all theorical. The only thing it does is convince the convinced that it's not worth playing this game. That's the real purpose of the "discussion".

You said I didn't have to read your exchange. Well, you don't have to read my posts either. Trying to ignore the reality of this is the same as talking about a "900 € LI blood Angel army" : it's useless.


But understand that for those who are interested in LI, having to follow a tiresome "discussion" on "theorical prices" again in the "News and Rumors thread" (it's not even a "rumor" to talk about theorical prices, mind you, it's all made up) to actually find relevant information is as pointless as the whole thing is.