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Surely unless it matters later in the turn for some reason we aren't yet aware of, you can remove order counters to mark activation?

 Matrindur wrote:
I missed it yesterday but they showed some of the transfers over on twitter:
https://twitter.com/warhammer/status/1724438334808666316

The transfers themselves aren't anything special but why only these four? But there should be more in the individual boxes as they also showed SW and EC in the painting video
Also there will be transfers for 8 Auxilia regiments.

So the 8 Auxilia Regiments are probably the ones circled in green and Legion Transfers are circled in red. And rest are for the Titans? Must be a dedicated marine-sheet in the marine boxes.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Yes - if you are making me use counters, at least have them do double duty as unit activation reference.

I think they do (did in 2nd ed). You remove them as units activate if its the same?

 Ohman wrote:

So the 8 Auxilia Regiments are probably the ones circled in green and Legion Transfers are circled in red. And rest are for the Titans? Must be a dedicated marine-sheet in the marine boxes.

That seems to be correct, the ones to the right of the legion transfers might be numbers to use with everyone and the one to the right of that is titans with the smaller one in the top right being for banners maybe?


Battlereport is also up now but as I don't have a subscription I will need to wait for somebody else here to tell us how it went

Quickstart rules posted in the downloads area on Warhammer Community.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/FyaBMhvG4lHW3jtR.pdf

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:


(if its properly playtested)

That if is doing some heavy lifting in this sentence

Let me tell you a secret : your loving older edition of Epic was the same.

Let me tell you a bigger secret - 4th edition was extensively playtested. I did some of it (ok the swordwind book was a bit off, but that had a far shorter testing period). There was a lot of playtests, evidence, debating things with Jervis, and a game that is remarkably balanced. The UK tourney scene has made incredibly few balance measures tot he original lists.

Yep. I was doing it as well remember it well and I even got one of my questions answered in the faq section of rulebook. Had I knew that might have happened would have tried phrasing it better...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:


And that's why I say it was the same : playtesting was always under pressure when the game was officially supported (mind you, the topic here is playtest before the game is officially launched ...sure, 4th got a lot of feedback and discussions with Jervis Johnson, but that was on the whole time it was supported by GW, not just before it was released.)
it.

Supported how? Couple word doc at specific site. No models on sale..,

 mattl wrote:
Quickstart rules posted in the downloads area on Warhammer Community.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/FyaBMhvG4lHW3jtR.pdf

There`s suspiciously little content in that "quick start", all it contains is one scenario and one special formation to use with contents of the box (mix of both marines and solar auxilia), and note that this is not supposed to be used for regular games (sorry, matched games). It also feels like they intend for both players to get full box of miniatures EACH for this introductory scenario.

I wouldn't be 100% confident that every Legion will get transfers in the individual boxed sets. For full sized Heresy we have only ever gotten Sons Of Horus and Imperial Fists transfers.

I think that most of the mini transfers in the painting videos may be from the full sized Heresy Forge World transfer sheets. They all have tiny legion symbols for knee pads etc.

Would certainly be an expensive way to add legion flavour to your LI games. I hope I am wrong.

The scenario is the one being played in the Warhammer+ battle report.

Kretualdo wrote:

 mattl wrote:
Quickstart rules posted in the downloads area on Warhammer Community.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/FyaBMhvG4lHW3jtR.pdf

There`s suspiciously little content in that "quick start", all it contains is one scenario and one special formation to use with contents of the box (mix of both marines and solar auxilia), and note that this is not supposed to be used for regular games (sorry, matched games). It also feels like they intend for both players to get full box of miniatures EACH for this introductory scenario.

Ummm:

Designer’s Note: This guide is designed as an introduction to the game of Legions Imperialis by splitting the contents
of a single Legions Imperialis boxed game into two separate armies, each army containing both Legiones Astartes and
Solar Auxilia models. It is intended to be used in conjunction with the Opening Manoeuvres Mission on page 2. The
battlefield size of this mission is smaller than an average Legions Imperialis game – adding additional Detachments may
require adjustment to the battlefield size, and the placement of Objectives, accordingly

I don't think so (in relation to intending for both players to have a box each), but it does allow for two boxed games to fight against one another. It is literally the perfect quick start? What more do you want?

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

Kretualdo wrote:

 mattl wrote:
Quickstart rules posted in the downloads area on Warhammer Community.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/FyaBMhvG4lHW3jtR.pdf

There`s suspiciously little content in that "quick start", all it contains is one scenario and one special formation to use with contents of the box (mix of both marines and solar auxilia), and note that this is not supposed to be used for regular games (sorry, matched games). It also feels like they intend for both players to get full box of miniatures EACH for this introductory scenario.

Ummm:

Designer’s Note: This guide is designed as an introduction to the game of Legions Imperialis by splitting the contents
of a single Legions Imperialis boxed game into two separate armies, each army containing both Legiones Astartes and
Solar Auxilia models. It is intended to be used in conjunction with the Opening Manoeuvres Mission on page 2. The
battlefield size of this mission is smaller than an average Legions Imperialis game – adding additional Detachments may
require adjustment to the battlefield size, and the placement of Objectives, accordingly

I don't think so, but it does allow for two boxed games to fight against one another. It is literally the perfect quick start? What more do you want?

I think it allows 1 box set to form a battle with 2 sides?

'Splitting a Single LI Box into 2 separate armies'




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The battle report on W+ is 1100 points each.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

Kretualdo wrote:

 mattl wrote:
Quickstart rules posted in the downloads area on Warhammer Community.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/FyaBMhvG4lHW3jtR.pdf

There`s suspiciously little content in that "quick start", all it contains is one scenario and one special formation to use with contents of the box (mix of both marines and solar auxilia), and note that this is not supposed to be used for regular games (sorry, matched games). It also feels like they intend for both players to get full box of miniatures EACH for this introductory scenario.

Ummm:

Designer’s Note: This guide is designed as an introduction to the game of Legions Imperialis by splitting the contents
of a single Legions Imperialis boxed game into two separate armies, each army containing both Legiones Astartes and
Solar Auxilia models. It is intended to be used in conjunction with the Opening Manoeuvres Mission on page 2. The
battlefield size of this mission is smaller than an average Legions Imperialis game – adding additional Detachments may
require adjustment to the battlefield size, and the placement of Objectives, accordingly

I don't think so (in relation to intending for both players to have a box each), but it does allow for two boxed games to fight against one another. It is literally the perfect quick start? What more do you want?

Ah, my bad, glanced too quickly through that paragraph. As to what more could be there - for example a sample army lists for both sides made from that one box and unit stats for the box content, as that would make it easier to quickly look it up during play, as opposed to having to flip through entire book every time.

This special formation to play with the Launch Box solves everything, then.

tneva82 wrote:

Supported how? Couple word doc at specific site. No models on sale..,

At that time, when Epic : Armaggedon was first released, there was a hardcopy rulebook before it was pdf only and there were models sold via the website (in the Specialist Games section : you can consider it wasn't part of GW, but that would be a lie to say there was no official support at all). Same for the expansion Swordwind. It was like this for as long as it lasted. You're talking about the time period after that support ended and fan communities took the rules for themselves once they weren't on free download from GW website anymore - it wasn't always like that, mind you.

Sarouan wrote:

vadersson wrote:
I am going to have to disagree with you here. This is a sci-if game. Especially in Warhammer 30K with SCT construction I feel it would not be unreasonable to have a new colony or an isolated fab center built literally exactly like this. We are not talking 1944 European countryside’s where things have organically grown, but Aline worlds that may have just had the Empire come in and say build city design X here. In this case the more aprupt transition seems reasonable.

If they're not high building, sure. You build on height when you lack space, not when you're in the wilderness with all the terrain you want to build new buildings.

There are reasons other than pure space. Ground conditions and the need to provide services infrastructure are other reasons why you build tall to minimise ground footprint. Also Imperials build for longevity, so that sudden transition between building and grassland is only temporary in their eyes until the next phase of the colony kicks in. And actually, the buildings being put in now are going to be the foundations for the hive structure that will be coming along in 1,000 years or so

Absolutely agree preferneces are subjective to individuals, but you can usually come up with a valid reason for any kind of thing somewhere across 1,000,000 worlds

Sarouan wrote:
This special formation to play with the Launch Box solves everything, then.

tneva82 wrote:

Supported how? Couple word doc at specific site. No models on sale..,

At that time, when Epic : Armaggedon was first released, there was a hardcopy rulebook before it was pdf only and there were models sold via the website (in the Specialist Games section : you can consider it wasn't part of GW, but that would be a lie to say there was no official support at all). Same for the expansion Swordwind. It was like this for as long as it lasted. You're talking about the time period after that support ended and fan communities took the rules for themselves once they weren't on free download from GW website anymore - it wasn't always like that, mind you.

It was playtedted before book came out. I played it then. No minis on sale before book came.

As sain. I got question in book in prerelease playtest. Rules were playtwsted long before it was released

It started with docs that kept changing as Jervis changed them from feedback

 Flinty wrote:


Absolutely agree preferneces are subjective to individuals, but you can usually come up with a valid reason for any kind of thing somewhere across 1,000,000 worlds

You're right. A good story is always nice to justify the way the battlefield is set. Some do write by themselves, like fighting in city streets with city buildings / ruins around. Others need a little more push.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
No minis on sale before book came.

Pretty much normal when miniatures are sold after official release of the game, you know...playtesting of 4th edition may have been open in opposition to former ones, but it was still playtesting. Not like GW gave playtesters complete armies to playtest their games if the rules are open to anyone to try them and give their feedback : it was a different approach than before aimed at fans of the older editions and who already have a basis to play. That's not "support of the game once it's released".

Battle report is 1100 points on a 3x3foot board.

Looks good and enough units to fill it without looking overcrowded.

So 2,000 points on a 6x4 would be good, leave plenty of space for maneuvering, and be fairly affordable.

Also, it kind of feels weird when the "starter" set needs a special formation and a special scenario that aren't "legal" outside of starter box fights. It seems like the rules designers and whoever decided what went in the box weren't coordinating.

 infinite_array wrote:
Also, it kind of feels weird when the "starter" set needs a special formation and a special scenario that aren't "legal" outside of starter box fights. It seems like the rules designers and whoever decided what went in the box weren't coordinating.

I feel that's been more often the case than not through history. Hell, it's essentially what combat patrol is in 40k. And before they gave up on a force org chart, you'd have to split the tac squad into 2x5 to make a 'legal' army with any starter set.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:
Also, it kind of feels weird when the "starter" set needs a special formation and a special scenario that aren't "legal" outside of starter box fights. It seems like the rules designers and whoever decided what went in the box weren't coordinating.

I feel that's been more often the case than not through history. Hell, it's essentially what combat patrol is in 40k. And before they gave up on a force org chart, you'd have to split the tac squad into 2x5 to make a 'legal' army with any starter set.

Yeah most of those "duel army" packs GW were doing for a long while all had their own internal scenario built into them which adapted the rules a bit this way and that to balance them. It's not that abnormal at all when the value in a boxed set is based on money rather than on game performance and when GW has openly admitted that they don't link the two up save in a general sense. Even then you've models like Gotrek in AoS who is cheap and tiny and yet is insanely powerful.


With wargames starter/entry/battleforce boxes are made to be expanded from rather than to be whole armies. The opposite is honestly rarer.

I've seen it - Spartan Games actually went all in on the idea with Planetfall and their helix system. Each army was made up of a number of Helix choices, each Helix was a whole boxed set and a pre-designed set of multiple units for that helix. When you built the army you chose helix you were taken rather than the individual models. It had the bonus of helping them deal with a big SKU for multiple forces and also I think its a neat way to reduce min-maxing of certain unit types without having lots of unit limits and such. Instead you had a really simple system and its a shame they never got to take it further and make a big impact with it as its a system I feel would suite quite a few games.

tneva82 wrote:




Supported how? Couple word doc at specific site. No models on sale..,

Armageddon was supported with a model range during play testing. They only took the model range down during the start of the refresh and brought everything back in piecemeal.



The model range did have gaps as some things were never brought back during E40k's run and some items remained out of stock (or eventually discontinued completely). There are posts from JJ on the old forums discussing why things were missing. The models carried on being sold long after EA stopped getting updates and was just a PDF from their website, up until specialist games was nuked around 2012.

But this is derailing the thread enough as it is.

 infinite_array wrote:
So 2,000 points on a 6x4 would be good, leave plenty of space for maneuvering, and be fairly affordable.

Also, it kind of feels weird when the "starter" set needs a special formation and a special scenario that aren't "legal" outside of starter box fights. It seems like the rules designers and whoever decided what went in the box weren't coordinating.

Starter sets never been good to play like matched play. Not legal or way off points is norm.

‘We’ve always done it this way’ is quite literally the worst excuse for doing anything inefficient, stupid or unconstructive.

Roll Three Dice wrote:
‘We’ve always done it this way’ is quite literally the worst excuse for doing anything inefficient, stupid or unconstructive.

Which entirely depends on the action and it’s desired outcome, no!

Roll Three Dice wrote:
‘We’ve always done it this way’ is quite literally the worst excuse for doing anything inefficient, stupid or unconstructive.

And changing something just to change it isn't a compelling argument either. Remember, we aren't the ones that have to be convinced you need to convince the companies producing starter sets that this type of starter set is less economically feasible than another type. They aren't doing it this way "just because it has been done that way" but most likely because it sells better and/or makes more in the long run.

VAYASEN wrote:
Battle report is 1100 points on a 3x3foot board.

Looks good and enough units to fill it without looking overcrowded.

Yes. I actually find it pretty compelling to play this small format, it makes me feel like playing "pocket Warhammer Horus Heresy" without investing too much, taking a lot of space and be able to play after a week of painting / building a bit each evening after work.

Sarouan wrote:

VAYASEN wrote:
Battle report is 1100 points on a 3x3foot board.

Looks good and enough units to fill it without looking overcrowded.

Yes. I actually find it pretty compelling to play this small format, it makes me feel like playing "pocket Warhammer Horus Heresy" without investing too much, taking a lot of space and be able to play after a week of painting / building a bit each evening after work.

I know people who play 10mm Heresy just scaling everything down proportionately.

Personally I'd prefer Epic to be on a full sized table (but not carpeted with units) to emphasize maneuvering, importance of weapon ranges etc.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I know people who play 10mm Heresy just scaling everything down proportionately.

Personally I'd prefer Epic to be on a full sized table (but not carpeted with units) to emphasize maneuvering, importance of weapon ranges etc.

You mean, putting the infantry models individually on custom bases and play with Horus Heresy rules ? There's indeed a crowd for that but I'm afraid my big fingers will make them slip out of my hands more often than I'd like...

Big battles are ok once I have gathered enough to fill one, but I feel like I'd play more often with these "small skirmishes" that'll help to keep my motivation during the journey.

I think the forces are a good balance. You get a taster for each in a reasonably efficient package. You can then choose one of the forces to add a couple of expansion packs to, and you automatically get a couple of thematic ally forces to use for flavour. The epic box version I got was the one with 50% marines, 30% Orks and 20% eldar. Now that was a mess

Roll Three Dice wrote:
‘We’ve always done it this way’ is quite literally the worst excuse for doing anything inefficient, stupid or unconstructive.

Well it works.

If you think gw is doing it wrong start your own company that outsells gw.