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Yea. Especially as that's not the cash cow for GW. Marines are.

If BL were to focus to TOW it means GW is downsizing BL down not expecting it to bring in cash anymore the way it does currently.

1 new book does not an entire new company direction make. BL often produces a book for the launch of a major game/release.

Also BL has been slowly releasing Old World books for ages, since End Times happened they've been releasing a lot of chronicle books which basically gather up a LOT of the previous stand alone books and short stories and releasing them as single volumes

 xttz wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

And if they really wanted AT 2.0 to do well, they'd move up the timeline a smidge and introduce Orks. They could do a great job with just 4 kits and maybe some resin bits.

There's currently whispers about a black library Great Scouring IP to follow on from the HH series. As well as fleshing out some conflicts against now fully-Chaos opponents, it also provides a setting for 30k-era units & characters to be liberating worlds from xenos incursions.

Horus Heresy tabletop content tends to follow closely on from black library events. While realistically it's ~4 years away at best, I think the next logical major step for epic scale would be an AT reboot against plastic gargants & stompas. Then they can evolve that with Ork tanks & infantry in LI at a later date, using the existing flyers.

They could do Eldar a lot sooner for AT if they did some sort of Stygies VIII campaign. Probably sell like hotcakes as well. I suspect they're prevented from doing it due to internal polictics...

 zedmeister wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

And if they really wanted AT 2.0 to do well, they'd move up the timeline a smidge and introduce Orks. They could do a great job with just 4 kits and maybe some resin bits.

There's currently whispers about a black library Great Scouring IP to follow on from the HH series. As well as fleshing out some conflicts against now fully-Chaos opponents, it also provides a setting for 30k-era units & characters to be liberating worlds from xenos incursions.

Horus Heresy tabletop content tends to follow closely on from black library events. While realistically it's ~4 years away at best, I think the next logical major step for epic scale would be an AT reboot against plastic gargants & stompas. Then they can evolve that with Ork tanks & infantry in LI at a later date, using the existing flyers.

They could do Eldar a lot sooner for AT if they did some sort of Stygies VIII campaign. Probably sell like hotcakes as well. I suspect they're prevented from doing it due to internal polictics...

Eldar are a lot more mechanically complex to fit into AT than Orks would be. And a lot more limited in model range currently.

Well, I guess they could resurrect the old eldar knights...

But I don't really see it happening, with current GW. THey seem to have moved over to the new hotness.

I wouldn't expect any other factions for Titanicus only anymore. If there are other factions like Orks or Eldar in the future they would also get other Epic scale stuff for a future edition if LI too. And that won't happen until they expanded the current HH enough which means nearly complete SM and SA armies and at a minimum Admech as a third faction

 Matrindur wrote:
I wouldn't expect any other factions for Titanicus only anymore. If there are other factions like Orks or Eldar in the future they would also get other Epic scale stuff for a future edition if LI too. And that won't happen until they expanded the current HH enough which means nearly complete SM and SA armies and at a minimum Admech as a third faction

I wouldn't hold my breath in hopes of seeing any non HH faction (meaning, non-Imperial) either in the near to medium future... at the very least. How long it's been since AT was released? Well, at the very least that long.

 Albertorius wrote:

I wouldn't hold my breath in hopes of seeing any non HH faction (meaning, non-Imperial) either in the near to medium future... at the very least. How long it's been since AT was released? Well, at the very least that long.

Thats what I meant, we won't be seeing anything non HH until they are finished with the HH setting which shouldn't happen until SM and SA are fleshed out and we at least get Mechanicus as there are already hints for them in the core book. And I would also expect Custodes since we also have that one flyer for them.
After that they might move on to another setting which includes xenos and that is the earliest I would expect xenos in Titanicus. But I wouldn't even expect that setting to be 40k, more likely to be something like the great crusade or the scouring so they can still use all the models they are currently releasing.

Yeah, what I mean is more.... don't expect to see it before maybe 2030

given how slow (comparatively) GW are with their model releases it is, perhaps, better to get fully fleshed out imperial armies rather than a expanding series of half formed xenos armies. what ifs are, of course, always tantalizing. as my local epic group allow more homebrewing than most the release of legions imperialis: the horus heresy has just meant questions about whether we should up scale everything to conform. when you have things like the planetary governor (below) comprising most of your armies upscaling just means having to paint everything again (but in more detail). I do think the new scale was a good idea (as it allows more detailed models and nuanced rules) repainting is going to take up the better part of the next year.

I dont think we see any non-HH content for AT/AI/LI for quite some time. When we do, I would guess its because they are spinning off a 40k version of LI/epic within 3-4 years of it. I would expect they will want to focus on LI for the next 3-5 years minimum before spinning out another game in that scale, if at all.

Yep, I'm hopeful for Epic and Xenos and all, but I'm expecting it in 10 years at best.

For LI right now I'll be happy when Mechanicus start to come out

The other option on the table would be a return to Warmaster.

SamusDrake wrote:
The other option on the table would be a return to Warmaster.

I'd love to see GW do Warmaster for AoS or Old World

I don't expect it though. I feel like GW is really hitting a total game limit right now. Heck Battlefleet Gothic I'd expect to come first or a Mordheim style release.

 zedmeister wrote:

They could do Eldar a lot sooner for AT if they did some sort of Stygies VIII campaign. Probably sell like hotcakes as well. I suspect they're prevented from doing it due to internal polictics...

It's not politics, it's basic commercial planning. As a more niche part of GW's product ranges, a fundamental element making the Heresy tabletop games worthwhile to develop expensive plastic kits for is that they can potentially be sold to all Heresy customers. A marine player can include Solar Auxillia allies their list, a Solar player can bring Mechanicum, and so on. It drives impulse purchasing when a Space Wolves or Death Guard player can both pickup the shiny new Auxllia battlegroup and play games with it immediately. That makes it fairly low risk to invest in plastic kits. The instant they release Ork or Eldar kits, customers need 2000-3000pts of Orks or Eldar to use them and that's a hazardous bet for GW to make.

 xttz wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

They could do Eldar a lot sooner for AT if they did some sort of Stygies VIII campaign. Probably sell like hotcakes as well. I suspect they're prevented from doing it due to internal polictics...

It's not politics, it's basic commercial planning. As a more niche part of GW's product ranges, a fundamental element making the Heresy tabletop games worthwhile to develop expensive plastic kits for is that they can potentially be sold to all Heresy customers. A marine player can include Solar Auxillia allies their list, a Solar player can bring Mechanicum, and so on. It drives impulse purchasing when a Space Wolves or Death Guard player can both pickup the shiny new Auxllia battlegroup and play games with it immediately. That makes it fairly low risk to invest in plastic kits. The instant they release Ork or Eldar kits, customers need 2000-3000pts of Orks or Eldar to use them and that's a hazardous bet for GW to make.

You were responding to a comment about AT though. And the point is that AT doesn't have to be a HH product, and it wouldn't take moving heaven and earth to accomplish it. They could introduce entire factions with about 4 kits -- only 1 of which would need to be on the larger side. That isn't a colossal investment for GW anymore...just look around the webstore at all the kits for things that you'll probably never actually see in the wild. And I'm fairly certain a new faction would sell well and bring in new customers to the game who are fans of that faction. What's more, it'd lay groundwork for a proper Epic game, which LI is not.

Maybe the SG team thinks selling more and more same-y gak to the same tiny group of Heresy heads is their optimal business plan. Seems a little hard to believe though, and I think it's more likely that GW is only giving that team a sliver of the overall IP to work with. Which is itself a valid business plan for the overall enterprise...it's just going to hold back some of these product lines.

 gorgon wrote:

You were responding to a comment about AT though.

I was mainly responding to the last bit about "internal politics".

As I said earlier in the thread, if epic scale xenos do I happen I think it will be via AT first. However before that I believe their plan is to spend a few years growing the Epic community by getting more players able to put together armies & game tables, using a cross-compatible model range like LI. Only if that's proven to be a success will GW risk selling independent model ranges like orks or eldar.

 Overread wrote:

I'd love to see GW do Warmaster for AoS or Old World

I don't expect it though. I feel like GW is really hitting a total game limit right now. Heck Battlefleet Gothic I'd expect to come first or a Mordheim style release.

The TOW era would make more sense, although Warmaster would depend greatly on the successes of both LI and TOW before being greenlit.

 gorgon wrote:
What's more, it'd lay groundwork for a proper Epic game, which LI is not.

What makes LI an improper Epic game?

at one point I would have agreed we were not going to get Xenos in epic scale but seeing how popular these "legacy" games are I am not so sure now, I personally think it is a certainty that we will get Epic scale Xenos and likely sooner than we think, I reckon 3-5 years and we will start getting them.

I also reckon BFG is this year, probably Christmas release.

SamusDrake wrote:

 Overread wrote:

I'd love to see GW do Warmaster for AoS or Old World

I don't expect it though. I feel like GW is really hitting a total game limit right now. Heck Battlefleet Gothic I'd expect to come first or a Mordheim style release.

The TOW era would make more sense, although Warmaster would depend greatly on the successes of both LI and TOW before being greenlit.

You can argue Warmaster scale for either Old World or AoS - it works great in both.

In both cases it allows you to have much bigger battles in terms of the volume of apparent models; plus in both it allows you to put larger monsters and constructs down - heck if anything AoS would be much like 40K in that it would allow the use of things that feature in the lore, but which are too big to feature or be practical in AoS itself. Godbeasts, floating islands and more.

Yeah I'd rather warmaster for AoS on that basis... but Man O War for TOW

 Overread wrote:

You can argue Warmaster scale for either Old World or AoS - it works great in both.

In both cases it allows you to have much bigger battles in terms of the volume of apparent models; plus in both it allows you to put larger monsters and constructs down - heck if anything AoS would be much like 40K in that it would allow the use of things that feature in the lore, but which are too big to feature or be practical in AoS itself. Godbeasts, floating islands and more.

I was thinking about how fewer factions TOW would have to support, compared to AOS. They have culled quite a few that were in WHFB, making for a similar situation to Horus Heresy where Xenos and full-on Chaos are not present.


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chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah I'd rather warmaster for AoS on that basis... but Man O War for TOW

Very unlikey at this time, but Man-O-War would be supremely cool.

I'm playing Man o War this year one way or another.

 Dysartes wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
What's more, it'd lay groundwork for a proper Epic game, which LI is not.

What makes LI an improper Epic game?

All the missing factions that were in the game for decades, for starters. Depends on your definition of "Epic" I suppose.

 Formosa wrote:
I also reckon BFG is this year, probably Christmas release.

If they did release a BSG-style game, I suspect that it too would be Heresy-era, and probably need a new title. How much of the Heresy took place in the Gothic sector?

The rumor from a few years back was BFG 2.0 would be set in the Heresy era, but it's been years since I heard anything on that.

I don't think they'll release it this year, I think they're having trouble keeping up with everything else

 gorgon wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
What's more, it'd lay groundwork for a proper Epic game, which LI is not.

What makes LI an improper Epic game?

All the missing factions that were in the game for decades, for starters. Depends on your definition of "Epic" I suppose.

One could say it has gone down to original epic back to it's roots.

 Formosa wrote:
at one point I would have agreed we were not going to get Xenos in epic scale but seeing how popular these "legacy" games are I am not so sure now, I personally think it is a certainty that we will get Epic scale Xenos and likely sooner than we think, I reckon 3-5 years and we will start getting them.

I also reckon BFG is this year, probably Christmas release.

One way which I champion is to focus an expansion on historical eras/wars.

So, let’s say Orks are first up? Go with Ullanor. Yes they’ll have some stuff rarely if ever seen in the modern era. But, erm, Boyz will be Boyz, and a Trukk is a Trukk is a Trukk.

Once the Orks are out?

Get the Guard involved and modernise Marines with….the second war for Armageddon. Maybe the third.

You want Eldar and Tyranids? Fall of Iyanden.

Basically find a narrative hook, and provide models around that hook for general purpose gaming. Step by step expanding Epic’s offerings. Ideally making all the armies valid matches for each other.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One way which I champion is to focus an expansion on historical eras/wars.

So, let’s say Orks are first up? Go with Ullanor. Yes they’ll have some stuff rarely if ever seen in the modern era. But, erm, Boyz will be Boyz, and a Trukk is a Trukk is a Trukk.

Once the Orks are out?

Get the Guard involved and modernise Marines with….the second war for Armageddon. Maybe the third.

You want Eldar and Tyranids? Fall of Iyanden.

Basically find a narrative hook, and provide models around that hook for general purpose gaming. Step by step expanding Epic’s offerings. Ideally making all the armies valid matches for each other.

This is the approach GW used for Epic: Armageddon, with limited success – but in fairness that was a different time, and some odd initial choices (sub-lists like Feral Orks and Baran Siegemasters joining the Eldar instead of, say, Chaos).

The principle's a very good one, and I'd like to see it pursued.

While I'd love to see Orks, Eldar and the like pop up in the new Epic, I think the next two–three years of Epic releases will be following the Adeptus Titanicus route of hardback book bit-parting out the basic army list. :s