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If memory serves, dropships were the best dogfighters in 40k 7th ed, cause everyone had the same flyer rules and they had the most armour and the most guns.

Well, that's a hell of a rules blunder if anything. I wonder if they forgot to exclude barrage weapons from being able to fire at flyers. I'm guessing that an assumption was made by someone that barrage weapons are blast weapons and forgot to double check.

Either way, I'll probably look to convince my local opponents to add a houserule so that only allow Skyfire weapons can shoot at flyers...

leopard wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
So.. artillery knocking aircraft down out of the sky... Please tell me that is not a thing here?

could be worse, could have guided anti tank missiles able to shoot down aircraft as well

at least this time they have made it so flame throwers with a template can't hit fliers

as noted if you more or less need a 6 to hit a flier anyway, and a six is always a hit regardless of penalties, a gun with a 90" range able to fire indirect becomes the mother of all anti aircraft guns

 zedmeister wrote:
Well, that's a hell of a rules blunder if anything. I wonder if they forgot to exclude barrage weapons from being able to fire at flyers. I'm guessing that an assumption was made by someone that barrage weapons are blast weapons and forgot to double check.

Either way, I'll probably look to convince my local opponents to add a houserule so that only allow Skyfire weapons can shoot at flyers...

Hey do not forget Mole Mortars are good AA weapons in LI ( a whooping -2 AP against them too).

mole mortars are essentially the best AAA currently, limited only by range

 Pacific wrote:
So.. artillery knocking aircraft down out of the sky... Please tell me that is not a thing here?

Just a sign of the huge core problem of everything hitting flyers on 6's, I don't think its unreasonable, but I do wish they had to purchase like flakk shells for the opportunity or something. Being able to do this while backing away at full speed from possible enemy closing in gets really silly though.

SU-152 wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
So.. artillery knocking aircraft down out of the sky... Please tell me that is not a thing here?

could be worse, could have guided anti tank missiles able to shoot down aircraft as well

at least this time they have made it so flame throwers with a template can't hit fliers

as noted if you more or less need a 6 to hit a flier anyway, and a six is always a hit regardless of penalties, a gun with a 90" range able to fire indirect becomes the mother of all anti aircraft guns

 zedmeister wrote:
Well, that's a hell of a rules blunder if anything. I wonder if they forgot to exclude barrage weapons from being able to fire at flyers. I'm guessing that an assumption was made by someone that barrage weapons are blast weapons and forgot to double check.

Either way, I'll probably look to convince my local opponents to add a houserule so that only allow Skyfire weapons can shoot at flyers...

Hey do not forget Mole Mortars are good AA weapons in LI ( a whooping -2 AP against them too).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
mole mortars are essentially the best AAA currently, limited only by range

Sadly ya they really strain credibility from a fluff perspective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:
Well, that's a hell of a rules blunder if anything. I wonder if they forgot to exclude barrage weapons from being able to fire at flyers. I'm guessing that an assumption was made by someone that barrage weapons are blast weapons and forgot to double check.

Either way, I'll probably look to convince my local opponents to add a houserule so that only allow Skyfire weapons can shoot at flyers...

What frustrates me is for all the detail and crunchiness they mess up core things like that. The bigger issues its peaks to though is, basically nothing is forced to not move in order to fire, or given an incentive to in order to fire with increased efficacy. The deredeo kinda does that but it's sad that they considered that but not mole mortars or other artillery being able to target flyers/move and shoot. Advance order is the super order because a unit get to move, shoot and overwatch, first fire loses out pretty hard on that account.

I hope we get a faq soon, the cyclops needs fixing for sure to even be playable imo.

mole mortars notwithstanding, artillery pieces being used as anti-aircraft batteries (airbursting fragmentation/flak rounds were very much a thing in the ww1/ww2 era, though have long fallen out of use) and ATGMs being used in an anti-helicopter role (in fact, many ATGMs are designed with that explicit capability in mind) are both very much things in the real world.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
If memory serves, dropships were the best dogfighters in 40k 7th ed, cause everyone had the same flyer rules and they had the most armour and the most guns.

Even with snapfire/ hitting on 6's in 7th, unless weapons really specialized in the AA role, it actually was pretty good balance in that flyers ended up being the best counter to other flyers quite often. You'd still have stuff like flakk missiles or dedicated AA tanks but you didn't have the whole board throwing dice and praying for 6's. In LI sadly, if it has light at you may as well throw it at a plane and hope for 6's, or if a weapon has considerable rate of fire like the titan level megabolters. That's also where stuff like rapid get a little too good against flyers as well.


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chaos0xomega wrote:
mole mortars notwithstanding, artillery pieces being used as anti-aircraft batteries (airbursting fragmentation/flak rounds were very much a thing in the ww1/ww2 era, though have long fallen out of use) and ATGMs being used in an anti-helicopter role (in fact, many ATGMs are designed with that explicit capability in mind) are both very much things in the real world.

But those are not even close to 1/6 sorta weapons, 88 flak had to fire a hell of a lot to be effective, compete air carpet hoping an air burst/shrapnel would be enough to down a bomber in proximity. If every 6 rounds that went up a bomber went down, like, we'd be living in a different world right now, they're just not that effective. Firing on fixed wing vs chopper is super different in terms of ground based AA, but there's no real distinction in LI, most vtol capable craft still operate as flyers unless in hover mode.

The problem is with everything being a bit too capable at hitting flyers on 6's, it diminishes the specialized AA units somewhat. I have no problem conceptually with basilisks having the ability to buy flakk rounds, but i also don't want basilisks moving and firing normally, they already have range for the entire board up to 8 inches from themselves.

The tarantuals AA that are part of this release for aux and marines that everyone will be building soon, those can't even intercept, so bombers can get first kick at the can.

Over the past 100 years the average number of rounds of small arms ammunition expended per casualty inflicted has ranged from 20,000 to 100,000 rounds per casualty, depending on the conflict in question. Ergo, lasguns, bolters, etc. shouldn't be 1 in 6 weapons either, and yet we have no problem with the abstraction there.

To-hit rolls are abstractions. Rolling once dice does not necessarily represent a single shot. It is part of the over all representation that the firing model is successful, or not, in causing the target to be combat ineffective within the arbitrary length of time of the turn.

Right but doing so while moving full speed isn't an abstraction, it's just silly. It's like one line of rules not written. Are we going to make a real world case for mole mortars moving 4 inches then firing at planes? It's one line of rules they couldn't summon themselves to write in both cases.

"A detachment with a mole mortar may not target flyers unless in hover mode." And hell I only mention hover mode for simplicity, I don't even know what the right answer is on skimmers. My baseline assumption actually would be them only being able to target "ground" targets, for lack of a better term.

"Barrage weapons require that the firing detachment not move in order to be able to fire."

Whether or not you want to get rid of everything hitting planes on 6's, the moving and shooting stuff is a bit silly. Adding the siege weapon rule to the medusa would also help fix thing in a round about way, because although it wouldn't prevent moving and shooting, it would double the range if the medusas chose not to move, taking them from 12-24 helps a lot as well.

IIRC the tarantula flak battery, while lacking an intercept rule, or the ability to overwatch is specifically able to fire in the advance movement stage when activated.

I don't think they are all that scary really, but have yet to fire the flak ones at a flier as no flier has yet gotten in range of them, short of a bomber overflying them in its activation they will get to fire before other shooting, and fire normally

not that a bomber could hit them, what with bombers moving on from their table edge, moving and being removed at the end of the turn so basically seriously limited in what they can bomb anyway

which seems somewhat weird as well

I was just responding to the idea that you can link individual dice rolls to counting number of rounds fired in real life by any metric or scale.

I agree with all the other issues being raised

leopard wrote:
IIRC the tarantula flak battery, while lacking an intercept rule, or the ability to overwatch is specifically able to fire in the advance movement stage when activated.

I don't think they are all that scary really, but have yet to fire the flak ones at a flier as no flier has yet gotten in range of them, short of a bomber overflying them in its activation they will get to fire before other shooting, and fire normally

The new plastic tarantulas sadly always get smoked by the bombs because they just can't intercept sadly, both marine and aux ones can still activate right after and fire if there are any left alive.

leopard wrote:
IIRC the tarantula flak battery, while lacking an intercept rule, or the ability to overwatch is specifically able to fire in the advance movement stage when activated.

I don't think they are all that scary really, but have yet to fire the flak ones at a flier as no flier has yet gotten in range of them, short of a bomber overflying them in its activation they will get to fire before other shooting, and fire normally

not that a bomber could hit them, what with bombers moving on from their table edge, moving and being removed at the end of the turn so basically seriously limited in what they can bomb anyway

which seems somewhat weird as well

March order, bombers can go deep if they need to.

You mean shooting down *airplanes*. Helicopters are aircraft.
Using ATGMs against slower and less agile low-flying aircraft seems perfectly reasonable to me (albeit at a penalty). For that matter, the Falcon Grav-Tank is technically an aircraft, but no one would complain about using an ATGM against it (except maybe it's owner). But using an ATGM against a Vampire is absurd.

I hear ya Brother Sarduka! I too hate that no date is given for the release in AU, but then they will release it all along with even more products, just to beat our wallets into submission!

GW has struck again by supposedly selling the new Dire Wolf kits to liquidators that are popping up on eBay. These continued logistical issues are very concerning for the longevity of this game

The last time that happened wasn't it a bunch of sewage damaged material from Forgeworld and the Eldar Collectible coins - all of which was supposed to be sent to the skip and instead got sold on ebay.


This might be more of the same group of people stealing kits and reselling them if they are hitting the wild that far ahead of release. That or someone getting their kits early with a trade account or such.

 Overread wrote:
The last time that happened wasn't it a bunch of sewage damaged material from Forgeworld and the Eldar Collectible coins - all of which was supposed to be sent to the skip and instead got sold on ebay.


This might be more of the same group of people stealing kits and reselling them if they are hitting the wild that far ahead of release. That or someone getting their kits early with a trade account or such.

The liquidator they sold the Leman Russ kits a couple months ago is a partner of theirs supposedly. While I would like to think that nefarious actors are at play, this is right in line with other issues they've had. The silver lining is, that we know they have announced LI units in stock at global warehouses (in the US at least) and their release is coming soon if this is true.

Ahh I'd not heard about the Russ kits. That said I'd be very confused as to why GW were selling stock to a Liquidator for products that aren't even being sold retail yet. That doesn't really make much sense?

 Overread wrote:
Ahh I'd not heard about the Russ kits. That said I'd be very confused as to why GW were selling stock to a Liquidator for products that aren't even being sold retail yet. That doesn't really make much sense?

Agreed. That'd very strange, and not something that I'm comfortable with.

 Overread wrote:
Ahh I'd not heard about the Russ kits. That said I'd be very confused as to why GW were selling stock to a Liquidator for products that aren't even being sold retail yet. That doesn't really make much sense?

The probable answer is: they weren't selling stock to a liquidator, it's someone who got stolen product and is making gak up to cover their butts.

Or it got mistakenly mixed in with stuff that was intended to go to the liquidators

chaos0xomega wrote:
Or it got mistakenly mixed in with stuff that was intended to go to the liquidators

But can we rule out bartering with houthi pirates for leman russ boxes?


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Schrödingers Primarch wrote:
GW strikes again, sold the Dire Wolf kits to liquidators that are popping up on eBay. These continued logistical issues are very concerning for the longevity of this game

I hope both dire wolves don't have fixed poses, seems odd for both be modelled with the same leg out front.

So 2 options, the janitor is stealing unreleased kits from the warehouse to sell them on eBay on a regular basis

Or GW has major issues with logistics/distribution and is shipping the wrong kits

For everything else that is going on, which of those 2 are in line with sold out kits/books showing up in bulk in some place and a recently "finished" change in ERP system

The most realistic explanation I can see for stock being 'liquidated' is that a shipping container got lost / damaged so badly in transit that it has been written off from GW's POV, and the insurer is now recovering whatever cash it can through bulk sale. GW themselves definitely wouldn't want unreleased products getting out into the public like this, but a freight forwarder / insurer wouldn't care at all. If they've paid out via an insurance policy then whatever is recovered would also be their stock.

A lost container would also explain why LI releases have been so delayed.

These Dire Wolves are the fist Titan models that I think look hella derp. Not touching these with a ten foot pole, regardless of their viability

 xttz wrote:
The most realistic explanation I can see for stock being 'liquidated' is that a shipping container got lost / damaged so badly in transit that it has been written off from GW's POV, and the insurer is now recovering whatever cash it can through bulk sale. GW themselves definitely wouldn't want unreleased products getting out into the public like this, but a freight forwarder / insurer wouldn't care at all. If they've paid out via an insurance policy then whatever is recovered would also be their stock.

A lost container would also explain why LI releases have been so delayed.

That's a good point, damaged containers and stock being sold off after insurance and so forth by the company.

As you say GW wouldn't want brand new stock (for things that aren't even on retail) to go to a liquidation firm for sale. Heck no firm would want to do that.



Theft is also not out of the question either and they don't even need much stock to make a noise on the internet.

Hmm yes a "liquidator" with no other listings and 1 item sold in the past year and taking pictures of items on a car seat

There were similar shenanigans a while back, which included someone swiping the Eldar Collectors Coins.

That I believe was a sticky fingered thief lifting stuff from the factory, and included a lot of Forgeworld.

Well from Lord_Blackfang's observation, that feels like it might be the same thing here. A company clearing our insurance loss items in bulk wouldn't have no other items listed.