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CorwinB wrote:
In all likelihood, we will get a "Compendium" book of sort later down the line with full army lists and perhaps FAQed Core rules. Doesn't make it easier to carry the books in the meantime, of course.

My concern with this is that releasing compendium books (like they did for Titanicus) typically means that model range is considered 'complete' for the forseeable future.

Let's say GW release a book with all of the LI space marine rules, it's a lose-lose situation:
a) They continue releasing space marine kits a few months later, and that 'master list' is outdated
b) They move on to another project like LI Mechanicum or BFG, and LI marines are left in limbo for at least a year. New players will not want to start collecting LI marines in case that's the beginning of the end.

This is why it's important to have more accessible rules while the models are still fully supported. I really hope to see GW following the Titanicus model much sooner this time, and make detachment datacards available via PDF download.

It's a fair concern – Adeptus Titanicus (AT) had a trifecta of books released that seemed to mark the end of its active release cycle (for want of a better phrase): Loyalist, Traitor and Matched Play guide. Taken together, these serve as a sort of v1.5 edition of the game that smooth off those few rough edges the game had – what GW do next with the game will be interesting.

For Legions Imperialis (LI), I think the model is slightly different. It's a much broader scope than AT, with far more moving parts. I think the thing I'd like to see in a year's time is a compendium that has core lists for Legions Astartes and Solar Auxilia – once those are in place, I think I'd be much happier with campaign books that introduce genuinely optional units like Legion-specific stuff, and have far less to grouse about.

Future releases could also be variant Sprues.

For instance, right now it’s sodding difficult to get your mitts on Assault, Support, Heavy Support Marines and Terminators, without ending up with a load of Tacticals.

So something like a support infantry box, rejigging and reusing the existing sculpts would work nicely for me.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Future releases could also be variant Sprues.

For instance, right now it’s sodding difficult to get your mitts on Assault, Support, Heavy Support Marines and Terminators, without ending up with a load of Tacticals.

So something like a support infantry box, rejigging and reusing the existing sculpts would work nicely for me.

The Tallarn release shows that GW seem to see value in selling very similar vehicles in different boxes (Leman Russ Strike and Leman Russ Executioner & Demolisher boxes are separate, for example), so I'm cautiously optimistic about this. There are a few little suggestions like the Imperial Fists' Legion rules, for example, that reference weapons not in the game. Whether these are solid plans or hopeful future-proofing on the part of the designers, who can say?

A lot of the releases mirror the 40k-scale Age of Darkness list, from which the following infantry types are missing in LI:

Close Combat Terminators
Destroyer Squads
Breacher Squad
Recon Squad
Scout Squad
Seeker Squad

Whether all (or indeed any) will turn up in LI is unclear, but if there is a new box of infantry, I'd anticipate them theming them somehow. Something like 'Legiones Astartes Siege Assault Infantry' or something, with some or all of the above involved.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Also, from a historical point of view? This is what I’m used to with Epic. In second edition, the main box had rules for a small selection of units. You then got the expansion boxes (Armies of the Imperium, Ork & Squat Warlords, Hive War, Chaos & Eldar Renegades), which fleshed out two armies each. From there you also got various WD releases, Titan Legions, and more WD releases.

From that same historial PoV, after they did that, on the next two editions of the game they released full, complete lists instead of splitting them. And on the magazines and/or supplements they added different things, either as full new lists or as new detachments of new subfactions (Like admech or sororitas detachments for Imperium armies).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CorwinB wrote:
In all likelihood, we will get a "Compendium" book of sort later down the line with full army lists and perhaps FAQed Core rules. Doesn't make it easier to carry the books in the meantime, of course.

Unlike I did with Necromunda, if I decide to buy into this game, it will be after it comes out of beta.

My biggest concern with this game is where GW is going to go too once they've done the visually distinct factions.

With 30K They could do lots of Space Marine subfactions; but with LI I worry that they can't as easily do that because most of the differences between Marine groups are small details that are just not going to really show on models of this scale.


So once you've got Marines; Guard; Mechanicus; Traitor corrupted models - you're almost basically done with 30K unless they can lean into a few exotics like Sisters of Silence and so forth.

 Overread wrote:
My biggest concern with this game is where GW is going to go too once they've done the visually distinct factions.

With 30K They could do lots of Space Marine subfactions; but with LI I worry that they can't as easily do that because most of the differences between Marine groups are small details that are just not going to really show on models of this scale.

GW can potentially spend quite a bit of time fleshing out the other end of that scale with models that would be impractical for many people in regular Heresy games; Stormbird, Mastodon, Gorgon, Leviathan, Capitol Imperalis, multiple Ordinatus engines, etc. Then on top of Primarchs & legion retinues; Custodes, SoS, and Daemons are also solid candidates for lower-scale resin releases, There's further scope to explore Titans, with units like the Rapier scout titan & Imperator being widely anticipated for some time. I think there's definitely more than enough pending Heresy content to fill their usual 4-5 year release cycle, possibly two cycles.

Beyond that? They can further prolong the Heresy setting with a year or two exploring BFG, much like the Aeronautica releases following AT.

The next obvious major step would be Heresy-era Orks & Eldar, who could fight the existing LI model ranges without creating a huge void of pending epic-scale 40k content. However I think that would first require Black Library producing new material from that era to build on, so my fingers are crossed for some kind of Scouring book series.

there's still custodes and sisters, and i think combined they have enough for a model release

any hope of eldar or orks getting into LI is just cope, tho. it's the same as people who keep hoping that GW is going to add eldar or orks to HH. if GW is going to make eldar or ork models at that scale, it's because they expand nuepic into the 40k setting

currently it looks like they are using the same templates for models with HH so as long as there are no Eldar or Orks there, they won't be in LI

and with the current release model they can fill the years until a 2nd Edition or compendium

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
any hope of eldar or orks getting into LI is just cope, tho.

When Titanicus came out six years ago people said it was copium to expect tanks & infantry in this scale. If GW believe something will make them money they will do it.

However best case I don't see it happening before the end of the decade, and it massively depends on the success of LI.

Heresy is a pretty safe way to explore new/returning games. And it’s the same reason Adeptus Titanicus was, initially, a Man vs Man game.

It’s essentially the cheapest outlay possible.

Do I expect 40K Epic particularly soon? Not really. But if Legions Imperialis continues to sell? I think we will see it.

From an interview I shared in the Link Tank, Robin Dews explained not only did the original version of Epic sell really well (though today’s one with Rick Priestly suggest Titan Legions didn’t sell well), but its scale allowed the design team to really flesh out 40K in a way they just couldn’t in 28mm at the time.

And that I think is true, after all everything short of (to the best of my knowledge, there may be some crossover) the Landraider, Predator, Rhino and Battle Wagon all first came in epic scale.

Of course, modern GW is a very different beast, so the same rule isn’t quite as strong.

But it’s still a scale for massive battles and previously unseen war machines.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
there's still custodes and sisters, and i think combined they have enough for a model release

any hope of eldar or orks getting into LI is just cope, tho. it's the same as people who keep hoping that GW is going to add eldar or orks to HH. if GW is going to make eldar or ork models at that scale, it's because they expand nuepic into the 40k setting

I agree. My gut says that there's an IP firewall in place at GW, and that the HH is the sandbox that the teams working on LI, AT, 30K, etc. are allowed to play in.

If 40K factions were intended for LI, then the game would have been called "Epic" in the first place and probably created by the main studio and released with at least two different factions instead of one.

With how Old World has been handled its very clear that there's some kind of internal segmentation going on within GW itself. Quite how the divisions are is hard to tell from the outside - it could even just be something like marketing and resource allocation wanting fully separate product and marketing lines so that they can easily track sales, popularity and so forth

Some bits could also just be preferences of different design teams; eg the FW team might well prefer working in 30K in the first place and wants it all in there. This might mean that they just don't push/fight for other content in certain areas. Though its interesting to me that GW has been steadily removing more and more of the FW models from 40K without releasing direct replacements.

Even pretty popular stuff has been vanishing. Eg Tyranids lost a lot of popular and practical models and now only have the two, high priced titan models left.

 gorgon wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
there's still custodes and sisters, and i think combined they have enough for a model release

any hope of eldar or orks getting into LI is just cope, tho. it's the same as people who keep hoping that GW is going to add eldar or orks to HH. if GW is going to make eldar or ork models at that scale, it's because they expand nuepic into the 40k setting

I agree. My gut says that there's an IP firewall in place at GW, and that the HH is the sandbox that the teams working on LI, AT, 30K, etc. are allowed to play in.

If 40K factions were intended for LI, then the game would have been called "Epic" in the first place and probably created by the main studio and released with at least two different factions instead of one.

The unit boxes do have “Epic Scale” logos in the bottom left hand corner. Likely stop your lovely Granny grabbing the wrong scale box at Xmas, but could also be a sub-game indicator thing.

 xttz wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
any hope of eldar or orks getting into LI is just cope, tho.

When Titanicus came out six years ago people said it was copium to expect tanks & infantry in this scale. If GW believe something will make them money they will do it.

However best case I don't see it happening before the end of the decade, and it massively depends on the success of LI.

see, but Titanicus never got tanks and infantry. LI did. and LI will never get eldar and orks, because if that becomes a thing, it would be as its own game

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
if GW is going to make eldar or ork models at that scale, it's because they expand nuepic into the 40k setting

Or into the late Phase of the Great Crusade...

 Overread wrote:
My biggest concern with this game is where GW is going to go too once they've done the visually distinct factions.

Why is that a concern? GW call it done and people can play in peace, without waiting for more and more and more?

 Overread wrote:
With how Old World has been handled its very clear that there's some kind of internal segmentation going on within GW itself. Quite how the divisions are is hard to tell from the outside - it could even just be something like marketing and resource allocation wanting fully separate product and marketing lines so that they can easily track sales, popularity and so forth

Maybe, but don't you think TOW and LI are two very different beasts? even from the same department? TOW: good rules, lots of faqs, nice support, barely any nice new minis. LI: awful rules, feels like an alpha version (not even a beta), no faqs, but otoh lots of nice new minis.

Because GW established that a GW without new releases is "dead" and people don't cover/post/play dead games
So the moment GW drops it people drop it too and those that stay are similar hard to find than those playing other non-GW games (like going back to before LI was released and trying to play Epic Armageddon)

PS: and the situation for TOW and LI is similar in rules and models
TOW has more rules support but still not good rules were LI has more model support
Difference is just that there is a bigger base of old school Warhammer Fantasy players than there are old Epic players

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
see, but Titanicus never got tanks and infantry. LI did. and LI will never get eldar and orks, because if that becomes a thing, it would be as its own game

The point being made was that eventually GW could produce more epic-scale orks & eldar models if they believed enough people would buy them. Of course it would a new game system with another name, that's pretty obvious.

 kodos wrote:
PS: and the situation for TOW and LI is similar in rules and models
TOW has more rules support but still not good rules were LI has more model support
Difference is just that there is a bigger base of old school Warhammer Fantasy players than there are old Epic players

Honestly I think the biggest factor is the models side of the equation. TOW is specifically built around fetching your old models out of the attic, dusting them off, then optionally buying any number of new toys you want. These models have been very cheap on second-hand markets for a long time. You can also use virtually any existing fantasy terrain, which is already pretty easily accessible in many clubs and dining tables.

LI was designed around needing an entirely new army in a new scale to before, and requires terrain that pretty much only AT players would already own. Even at the best case of owning AT titans & Imperial Aeronautica planes, LI still requires a lot of things to be bought & painted. The barrier to entry is much higher than TOW.

Anecdotally; a lot of the same people at my local club picked up things for both TOW and LI. However they're predominately playing TOW because that was sooo much quicker to get onto the tabletop. Their LI models are sat at various stages of assembly & painting, and many haven't played a game yet.

 kodos wrote:
Because GW established that a GW without new releases is "dead" and people don't cover/post/play dead games
So the moment GW drops it people drop it too and those that stay are similar hard to find than those playing other non-GW games (like going back to before LI was released and trying to play Epic Armageddon)

PS: and the situation for TOW and LI is similar in rules and models
TOW has more rules support but still not good rules were LI has more model support
Difference is just that there is a bigger base of old school Warhammer Fantasy players than there are old Epic players

TOW has the bonus that there's a lot more creative space to expand into and the models are much larger so you can do alternate variations/evolutions and have more of a marked change that encourages sales.


And its not really GW that went for the whole "no new releases means its dead". This is 100% on the gamers as well. Consider how many were saying that slaanesh was going to be removed from the game for a time.
Now Old World has proven that old stuff can and will sell; and there's plenty of older games that kick around still selling the same models for decades.

The thing is marketing is much much easier when you've something new and shiny to show off. People latch onto it way faster and engage with it, get hyped and want to buy it.
When you're showing off the same models that you've been showing off for the last 20 years for the 1000th time your existing customers are less engaged. Sure its still a cool model, but they've seen it, done it, might have bought it - don't need another. Or if it never caught their eye 10 years ago chances are its still not going to catch their eye now.

Stagnation is an issue and its no surprise that the firms you see flourishing, growing and being more dominant in the market are those with fresh releases whilst those that have very few to no fresh releases are often living on "life support" with smaller customer bases.



So sure GW could call LI done at a certain point and stop releasing new models (or many new models) but that would give a sense that the game is going to die. Wargamers invest into games as long term thing - the idea of a short term game with death on the horizon is not attractive. Because when a game dies the marketing dies; the draw of new people; new developments; organised events; etc.... All that can come crumbling down unless you are very lucky. For every game like Bloodbowl that managed to survive the lights going off; there's way more Man-O-War where it never survived.
Granted those also came iwth the parent firm shutting down production. And lets face it if GW has a big line of models that are ticking over or the option of releasing two or three new armies for 40K that will fly off the shelves you can bet you know where they will want to turn their resources

 kodos wrote:
Because GW established that a GW without new releases is "dead" and people don't cover/post/play dead games
So the moment GW drops it people drop it too and those that stay are similar hard to find than those playing other non-GW games (like going back to before LI was released and trying to play Epic Armageddon)

That is so ridiculous that I just cannot believe people follow that

 kodos wrote:

PS: and the situation for TOW and LI is similar in rules and models

Sorry but NO. LI has super cool loads of miniatures. TOW has like a couple of lords on beasts and little more.

 kodos wrote:

TOW has more rules support but still not good rules were LI has more model support
Difference is just that there is a bigger base of old school Warhammer Fantasy players than there are old Epic players

Ok in absolute terms. In relative terms TOW rules are a couple of orders of magnitude better than LI.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
From an interview I shared in the Link Tank, Robin Dews explained not only did the original version of Epic sell really well (though today’s one with Rick Priestly suggest Titan Legions didn’t sell well), but its scale allowed the design team to really flesh out 40K in a way they just couldn’t in 28mm at the time.

Just watched that video, and I think Rick is getting the games mixed up a little here. Titan Legions continued what was probably the golden age of Epic in the early-mid 90's, with new releases pretty much every month. Also the Imperator & Mega-gargant kits were very popular.

Epic 40k and Gorkmorka were the games that crashed & burned, not least due to the GW sales execs over-aggressively pushing into the European market. The timing of those lines up perfectly with early development on Warmaster.

Surely the obvious way for GW to add Orks to the game would be following a roadmap like this:

PHASE 1 - standard legions and Auxillia
PHASE 2 - Admech
PHASE 3 - Corrupted and shattered legions
PHASE 4 - The siege of Terra, demons, primarchs, cultists etc.
PHASE 5 - The war of the beast. Orks and possibly Eldar added.
PHASE 6 - Advance to 41st millennium and redo the marine and guard factions.
PHASE 7/8 - Necrons, Tau, Nids and Sisters

Eldar could so easily be brought into LI using Stygies VIII as the perfect campaign setting. As far back as 1st Ed Titancius, Eldar Titan clans were introduced with fending off traitors on several worlds.

Dæmons of the Ruinstorm would scratch a massive itch for a lot of people. I know I've mentioned it before, but being able to field a Epic 2nd edition style Chaos army would be amazing. Dæmon engines, corrupted Titans and hordes of Dæmons...

Given GW's efforts so far, I cannot see anything happening beyond Legions Imperialis and an epic-scale game set in The Old World.

Bringing back Warmaster would be good.

agree on LI, it will stay as 30k, I doubt GW want 40k players to see it as a cheaper way to play their game with more mahoosive things.

it would be good in say 2-3 years to get a 2nd edition that does what epic used to have, bring in Titans properly with elements of AT integrated so they are more than just big walking tanks

and maybe bring in bits from AI as well to make aircraft feel like aircraft

they could do Xenos, not seeing it, thats 40k's thing and it means even more SKU when they have trouble with what they have now. I can see a fair bit going to almost splash releases though where if you miss them you have a bit of a wait as they try to trim the size of the product range (maybe with more larger "force" boxes being the only source for some "core" stuff)

they really do need to redo a lot of the rules, but need to get all of the first edition stuff out there first so when and if 2nd turns up they can have a largely functionally complete range to work with as a baseline

I know some people do keep playing games that are “dead”, but I think you will find that most people will drop a game if it has been out of production a few years. It is hard to find new players if the game is not still produced. Groups that do keep playing tend to start using more “house” rules which means a player from another area can not just start playing with an existing group as easily. So yes, it is pretty common and reasonable that dead games die off in the general public.

I used to turn my nose up at dead games. As of late I find myself increasingly drawn to them.

No game is dead if 2 people want to play it. Many games we use are considered "dead" but what other people believe is unimportant to us, as long as we still enjoy playing it then brilliant.
It seems many people like to follow what alleged influencers say. Luckily for me I don't care. I've never followed online preferences, never looked for online painting tutorials like YouTube etc.
I'm an old school Wargamer who started with historical gaming which far predates anything like GW. I do my own research into uniforms etc even into mythical/fantasy creatures using, wait for it, BOOKS. I know shocking as it maybe, internet is mostly for discussing things like this, for research I always use books. Too much information online can be just one person's own headcannon.
Back onto subject, hopefully the game will keep growing with Mechanicus and daemons through to siege of Terra and even the. Scouring.
I'm enjoying playing LI I find the rules fine as I'm always a narrative player. I've already got some fairly decent size forces. Just over 6000 points each of BA and Sons of Horus as well as over 10k worth of Solar Auxillia so even were they to stop selling tomorrow I've got plenty to keep me entertained for years.

I see discussion about Orks and Elder, but a more likely path to my eyes would be Mechanicum.

They are firmly within the Horus Heresy.

One set of models can be used on both sides.