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@Forceride

Stormboys and warbikes are very good at the moment as far moving objective capping units and action monkeys. Stormboys go to objectives they can hide on, Bikes to to where their better defensive profile is most useful.

For Kommandos I'd say the defacto loadout for them is Klaw/Rokkit/Ram/Squig/Grot. You only lose out on two slugga shots and get a better ranged and melee profile, and with a once per game 5++.

I agree on Ghaz; he needs to not take up so many spaces in transports, and he needs to be able to join something other than MANz. If he only took up the space of 12 models (and fill up a trukk by himself) and he could join Nobs, you would either have a classic MANz missile on roids or an absurdly dangerous Battlewagon that your opponent would absolutely have to deal with turn one.

Mek Gunz are pretty decent, but I'm finding it hard to justify them at the moment. Id probably only take one or two, if I took any at all.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
@Forceride

Stormboys and warbikes are very good at the moment as far moving objective capping units and action monkeys. Stormboys go to objectives they can hide on, Bikes to to where their better defensive profile is most useful.

For Kommandos I'd say the defacto loadout for them is Klaw/Rokkit/Ram/Squig/Grot. You only lose out on two slugga shots and get a better ranged and melee profile, and with a once per game 5++.

I agree on Ghaz; he needs to not take up so many spaces in transports, and he needs to be able to join something other than MANz. If he only took up the space of 12 models (and fill up a trukk by himself) and he could join Nobs, you would either have a classic MANz missile on roids or an absurdly dangerous Battlewagon that your opponent would absolutely have to deal with turn one.

Mek Gunz are pretty decent, but I'm finding it hard to justify them at the moment. Id probably only take one or two, if I took any at all.

hmmmm, you might be right on mek guns, might consider mekadreads or something like it, else i will lack tool to deal with high T

Tried another footslogging game with Orks, and encountered the same problem, again:
Unless we're using Dawn of War deployment, I just can't get to the enemy fast enough with enough firepower, meanwhile, ranged armies are able to fire on me with full impunity.

I played against Tau, with the table-corner deployment time, and since he deployed back away from his front line, I had little that could get close. He got first turn, and my Kommandos - I brought two units - both got obliterated, in part by flamers that had Ignores Cover, and then he sank some long range firepower into my bikers, killing all six of them that I'd brought.

By the end of turn one, I'd lost a solid 400pts of my army, and it was the units that were most well equipped to get up close and personal. I was only able to get off two charges. One of these - A unit of Squighogs hitting six of his battlesuits plus a coldstar - was able to do some damage, but nothing coming remotely close to what he'd inflicted on me.

On turn two, he made some pretty noticeable targeting mistakes, and I rolled exceptionally well on saving throws, and even with all that I was still losing. When his battlesuits fired at my squighogs (who were engaged with the suits,) I used the "-1 to Wound" stratagem on them, and he still chose to not only fire them, but a pretty large amount of his army's shooting at the hogs, meaning the shots were taking -1 to hit and wound on most of his army. And, as I said above, I was *very* lucky on this turn, taking damage well below what I should have.

Even then, he killed all the hogs and injured several other units. The incredible luck on my part (and the decision to attack my most durable unit on his part) didn't mean I started winning, it just meant I wasn't abjectly losing. And he did use Overwatch in a tactical way to kill one of my units that was moving to grab a secondary objective, meaning I had to choose between trying to charge his broadside battlesuits with my stormboyz or using them to grab the secondary.

We had to call the game partway through Turn 3 just because of time, but while I was keeping up on Victory Points - barely, we were tied - I was *not* keeping up on damage in the slightest. His DPS actually went *up* on Turn 3 because of the Tau army rule, meaning he was killing my army FASTER, and I was shedding the ability to hurt him. I was well set to score multiple Secondary objectives that turn, at least - I was probably going to get ahead on points for one turn - but after that, he was going to be scoring more than me for the remainder of the game.

I really just don't see a way to play this army without Trukks. Even with excellent luck and inadvisable targeting choices, I was still shedding units too fast and didn't have any way to stop it.

I think I'm going to give up my quest, for now, and just embrace the meta.

Generaly the armies based on “need to waltz over the board” do not work unless:

1. Most of the army has a FLY
2. Can do 24” and charge or something
3. Preferably both.

You can shoot down such army, unless super tough.
You can screen such army. Say hallo to warbikers or kommandos but other armies have such units too. I was always happy to faceing some super deadly TEQ walking armies with my speedmob. Just feed them with single warbiker unit a turn and they will strugle to get more than 6” from their deployment. And the rest of your army can just shoot and shoot and score and shoot… boring.

So yes, trying to footslog over the board without some nasty tricks does not work.

The same with the armies based on “I drop from deepstrike turn 2”.

Well… maybe you will. But if your opponent is clever enough, the place you will be able to drop will be totaly stupid for you.

And if your opponent is even more clever and has a right type of army, he can kill your deepstrike units just by screening the whole field. My deffkoptas and two jets died such way once and it was a very hard lesson. And I did something similar to some eldar guy later too.

The speed / mobility is very important. It gives you an option to fight where you need againts the units you want. It gives you the iniciativ.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
@Forceride

Stormboys and warbikes are very good at the moment as far moving objective capping units and action monkeys. Stormboys go to objectives they can hide on, Bikes to to where their better defensive profile is most useful.

For Kommandos I'd say the defacto loadout for them is Klaw/Rokkit/Ram/Squig/Grot. You only lose out on two slugga shots and get a better ranged and melee profile, and with a once per game 5++.

I agree on Ghaz; he needs to not take up so many spaces in transports, and he needs to be able to join something other than MANz. If he only took up the space of 12 models (and fill up a trukk by himself) and he could join Nobs, you would either have a classic MANz missile on roids or an absurdly dangerous Battlewagon that your opponent would absolutely have to deal with turn one.

Mek Gunz are pretty decent, but I'm finding it hard to justify them at the moment. Id probably only take one or two, if I took any at all.

Ghaz was competitive but not overpowered during the first month of 10th Ed when he was only taking 2 slots in a trukk.. He needs to drop to 10 or 6 slots.

gungo wrote:

Ghaz was competitive but not overpowered during the first month of 10th Ed when he was only taking 2 slots in a trukk.. He needs to drop to 10 or 6 slots.

IMO, the issue with Ghaz is they made him this enormous Primarch-sized mini, then decided they just wanted him to be a beefy Warboss again...but are still accounting for the size of the mini, for some reason.
10 slots would be ideal, IMO - it would mean he could ride in a Battlewagon with a full retinue of Meganobz, but make it so he can't be in a Trukk with a retinue at all. I like that, because it means he's more likely to take a transport befitting his status. (Ghazzy in a cheap trukk just doesn't feel right to me, from a fluff standpoint.)

Stupid question.... Why not just rapid ingress ghaz?

RedNoak wrote:
Stupid question.... Why not just rapid ingress ghaz?

You *can*, but this is pretty limiting. If your opponent screens board edges, you're in major trouble. If you get first turn, Rapid Ingress won't help you and you'll probably not get Ghazzy into melee until turn three - and you won't know if you have first turn until after you put him in reserves.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Tried another footslogging game with Orks, and encountered the same problem, again:
Unless we're using Dawn of War deployment, I just can't get to the enemy fast enough with enough firepower, meanwhile, ranged armies are able to fire on me with full impunity.

What terrain where you playing on? 10th needs alot of LoS blocking to not be dumb

RedNoak wrote:
Stupid question.... Why not just rapid ingress ghaz?

The only stupid question is an unanswered one, ask away, bask in the knowledge of the waaghh.

But waaaghpower nailed it pretty much, there is nothing wrong with Ghaz , but a combination of soft stats that make it a bad choice, namely mobility, defense and cost. Sure you can reserve ghaz but you pay a premium and you only have him at T2, so you have to hold the line and when he hit's the table he needs to make an impression... if you weigh these in, he is hard to pull off.

Yeah, i still say that shooting is op this edition. So terrain needs careful deliberation, i generally decline playing in tables with less then 9 pieces if the other side is shooty like tau. That there is the crime, that terrain makes or brakes your game, not your choices or mistakes, terrain is.

Tarp wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Tried another footslogging game with Orks, and encountered the same problem, again:
Unless we're using Dawn of War deployment, I just can't get to the enemy fast enough with enough firepower, meanwhile, ranged armies are able to fire on me with full impunity.

What terrain where you playing on? 10th needs alot of LoS blocking to not be dumb

there was a fair amount of LoS blocking - maybe not quite as much as there could have been, but the board was fairly well saturated.

However, he didn't have to shoot my entire army. He just shot the stuff that was deployed the furthest forward, and generally the most exposed because it was closest. Any units I had that were guaranteed a charge got targeted first, and were threadbare and mostly dead by the time they arrived, and because the horde units took up so much space with their 32mm bases, and his army was able to deploy *very* far away, I was never able to get a majority of my army close at the same time.

Waaaghpower wrote:

gungo wrote:

Ghaz was competitive but not overpowered during the first month of 10th Ed when he was only taking 2 slots in a trukk.. He needs to drop to 10 or 6 slots.

IMO, the issue with Ghaz is they made him this enormous Primarch-sized mini, then decided they just wanted him to be a beefy Warboss again...but are still accounting for the size of the mini, for some reason.
10 slots would be ideal, IMO - it would mean he could ride in a Battlewagon with a full retinue of Meganobz, but make it so he can't be in a Trukk with a retinue at all. I like that, because it means he's more likely to take a transport befitting his status. (Ghazzy in a cheap trukk just doesn't feel right to me, from a fluff standpoint.)

I’d prefer 6 for a trukk with a 3 manz missle or battlewagon with 6 manz since he’s limited to manz only. But my point originally was he was fairly Balanced even when he was only counted for 2 in trukks. Which leads me to beleive he’s a bit overpriced and underpowered at 10 transport slots.

Remember, Makari is not a token so he takes space.
Ghaz should take 9, so him+Makari=10+12 from 6 meganobz for full wagon occupation

Right now he cant even be in a wagon with 2 meganobz technically

Yeah, Ghaz is in a really weird spot rule wise. Would love to use him more but you have to bend over backwards with both the retinue and his transport or reserve usage so much it's just easier to take a Beastboss on Squigosaur.

Hes a beatstick that tends to struggle to find something to beat up.
Few times ive used him whatever he hits just dies, no questions asked. Problem is its only once been something of actual value and not just chaff out of...probably 8 games before i stopped using him.
You literally have to rapid ingress him, but theres rarely anything tasty on the sides outside of the enemy deployment and T3 is way too late.

am i missing something or did meganobz and ghaz loose the ability to deep strike?

RedNoak wrote:
am i missing something or did meganobz and ghaz loose the ability to deep strike?

They have never had that ability, it could only be gained from other sources - for example the tellyporta stratagem last edition.

Ahhh ok. Now I see. Never was a big fan of ghaz... But now I get the difficulties of him and rapid ingress... Just coming from normal reserves is pretty limiting.

Yeah, we would need either a detachment where it brings back the tellyporta stratagem in our new codex or a revamp to Ghaz's transport size number to really have him make a comeback to be honest. Or at least make him able to lead a unit besides just Meganobz.

It would be cool if he could lead Nobz, and just gave the same -1 to wound for them the Warboss gives.

Might make footslogging him more viable.

I guess they are afraid of mixed save units for some reason.

From playing him a couple of times, I'm fairly convinced that he should stop being a leader and work like the squigboss instead. Or maybe have the MANz as an optional retinue, similar to tyrant guard joining a hive tyrant.

 Jidmah wrote:
I guess they are afraid of mixed save units for some reason.

From playing him a couple of times, I'm fairly convinced that he should stop being a leader and work like the squigboss instead. Or maybe have the MANz as an optional retinue, similar to tyrant guard joining a hive tyrant.

They could have given him LO while within whatever distance of Nobz/MANz if they're scared of mixed saves.

Mixed save hardly reason since defender can never allocate to leader himself. So doesn't matter if leader has different save to unit. Ghaz isn"t soaking single hit away from unit he leads unless attacker has precision and wants.

Non-leader unit attachments can lead into problems but rare.

tneva82 wrote:
Mixed save hardly reason since defender can never allocate to leader himself. So doesn't matter if leader has different save to unit. Ghaz isn"t soaking single hit away from unit he leads unless attacker has precision and wants.

Non-leader unit attachments can lead into problems but rare.

The interaction is still un-intuitive, so it makes sense to avoid it. Thrakka is just one of the few instances where I feel like we already have better mechanisms in the game. I mean, there is a reason why Mortarion doesn't attach to units either, right?

Makari has 2+sv , warboss has 5+sv on invulns and lead 2 units with out.

I think there are enough edge cases to call mix saves. Ideally you want to avoid, to keep the game fluid since it slows down.

I think who ever wrote Ghaz looked at the model and had no idea what to do with it so tried to translate most his previous rules...

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Mixed save hardly reason since defender can never allocate to leader himself. So doesn't matter if leader has different save to unit. Ghaz isn"t soaking single hit away from unit he leads unless attacker has precision and wants.

Non-leader unit attachments can lead into problems but rare.

The interaction is still un-intuitive, so it makes sense to avoid it. Thrakka is just one of the few instances where I feel like we already have better mechanisms in the game. I mean, there is a reason why Mortarion doesn't attach to units either, right?

still, you know GW. they would make him a monster again... i'd rather have him as infantry leading two MANz.
but yeah, a 235 point model shouldnt be a force multiplier for one even more expensiv unit. at least mortarion can buff units around him. especially since the one to hit and wound and even the lethals ability arent great for ghaz himself.

i think with deep strike and two manz at 300point,s he would make a nice, even if expensive (points and CP wise) killing blow unit. dev instead of lethals would be more appropiate though

I would make makari buff global while makari is alive and apply to all attacks. Meanwhile i would give Ghaz the lone operative keyword. Keep everything else. Still a beat stick but now it has a reason to be on the table. Dakkajet with crits on 5 would be hilarious. But that's all a dream.

You don't need a lone operative keyword if Thrakka is sufficiently tough to kill. The swarmlord or the bug version of ol' one eye are good examples of such an approach.

If you want to hide Thrakka, you can attach him to a unit, but it should be viable to just run him (and Makari) solo.

yeah, you could give him more resilience but i figure it would take more rules, lone operative just makes it with less rules, that was my point of view, also as soon he joined a retinue he would lose lone operative. Anyway that's just an idea, i would defo like to see Ghaz get a rule tune up or his price come down to reflect his power.

Aye. There is absolutely no reason why its easier to Kill Ghaz than a freaking Beastboss with a tshirt, riding on top of a squig.

Ghaz is a literal organic dreadnought.

Him having toughness 6 while they have toughness 10 is stupid as hell.